Whistle

  "I am hoping someone has a

Just add a tortoise or blue point controller and pretend the crew hand throws it when they run over there.  ...DaveB

What would the best resources for Whistles be?

Any recommendations on resources (books, magazine articles, websites, etc) on using whistles to communicate with a Tower to communicate where it needs to go?

Thanks.

Ken L. 

Resource for whistle

Soundtraxx, ESU, TCS.

Model solution, just ask.

I was referring to the "code" used by Railroads for whistles

Obviously to use a whistle one must have a "code" to communicate where the engineer/conductor wants to go.  I'm looking for books, magazine articles, websites, etc that will provide that info.

For instance, an engine for the Local Passenger train is uncoupled from the train and needs to proceed to the Engine Terminal.  How would the Engineer of that locomotive communicate that?  I would think each move would have to be communicated.   But one would need to know the code to do this.  Those are the resources I'm looking for.

Thanks.

Ken L

I think that this is one place where you need a remote switch

machine.  Since we can't walk on our layouts unless we have a garden railroad, there are probably times when we just can't follow prototype procedures.  It looks like you need one switch machine, and one electrical switch on the facia for the road crew to operate that one switch.  If you don't want to use an electrical switch, you might use a ground throw connected to a cable to operate that one switch.  The cable could run under the scenery, with a recessed mini-shelf for the operating mechanism whether a ground throw or a push/pull knob for the road crew to operate.

Having anyone else operate the switch except the road crew unless there is a switch machine for the tower operator to operate creates a bunch of possible confusion for the operators. 

Code

Its whatever the local management decided it was.  There is no "book of codes".

Remote Switch Control

I recommend a remote switch control whether mechanical or electrical.  Electrical may be easier if you have to control the turn out from multiple locations.

Art

So the usual...

whistle/horn signal for Grade Crossings (2 Long, 1 Short, 1 Long) might be considered "Universal" but that would the exception?  

Just so I am understanding you correctly, messages such as:

- Release brakes. Proceed
- Apply brakes. Stop.
- Approaching meeting points or waiting points of trains.
- Approaching Station.
- Answer to any signal not otherwise provided for

could have been different for any RR.  There was no Universal Code (similar to Morse Code representing letters and not entire phrases like this)?  I just want to make sure I am understanding what you have said correctly.

Thanks.

Ken L

Whistle signals

We are talking about whistle signals to tell an interlocking which route a train whishes to take.    There is NO standard code for that.  And its not even multiple routes, its just one switch. The local management would pick signals , whatever it wanted to use to signal the tower operator the engine wants to go into the engine service track..  For example two shorts and two longs isn't used by anybody, use that.  Or a short a long and short isn't used by anybody, use that.  Pick one, its management prerogative.

Obviously if there are grade crossings around they aren't going to pick a grade crossing signal.

Its not that hard.

You really are only worried about one route, to or from the engine shops, its a totally model railroad situation (on the prototype it would be a hand lined switch. ) The only thing that makes it complicated is that its too far to reach, you don't want the yardmaster to line the switch and you don't want any fascia controls.  Totally model railroad constraints.  So therefore you have to have a really, really complicated solution to what on the prototype would be a simple solution, a hand lined switch.  To avoid one switch control in the fascia, you have create a new position, a tower operator that only lines one switch,  have to add general orders (assuming you don't want signage on the fascia), and then that may mean ALL moves now have to talk to the operator since the switch is a powered switch. 

Marker Lights/Flags/Stop Board

Hi Ken L,

If you are prepared to look at how this was done elsewhere and modify the concepts to suit your situation, here are some options. 

1. Flags/Disc markers - (for daylight hours) - choose a flag combination that is not widely used  (suggest something green/white, white/yellow combination) to identify "I want Loco Area". In the UK and Australia, the position of white disc markers or kerosene marker lamps on the smokebox/buffer beam at front or tender at rear were used to identify the route of the train.
2. Marker lamps (for dark hours mostly, but also for daylight on the Sydney suburban network) the combination of headlights and marker lights on or off can be used as in 1 above to identify train route
3. Conditional Stop Board - The loco proceeds to the Stop Board and halts. The Stop Board has a sign attached that reads something like "STOP HERE FOR LOCO - CONTACT SIGNALLER BEFORE PROCEEDING". Also attached to the post is a phone box with a dedicated line to the signal box/tower. If the Tower has set the road, a specific "Proceed at Caution" light combination could be displayed. Also written into the "local rules" could be something "If unanswered, retry after X minutes". This prevents the loco waiting to go to the Loco Area from "getting lost" amongst other traffic. Bad things can happen when trains "get lost" by signal boxes - see Quintinshill rail disaster   

My feeling is that a modified Option 3 might be the easiest to install and set up for your situation.  

The Tower Operator...

...would handle the entire WYE.  Given what you just said.  I will have to reconsider do I want a Tower here.

Thanks for the feedback.

Ken L

Other option

Another option is just to put a post near the switch with a phone box on it and then the crews just tell the tower what they want to do.

Technically if the tower operator controls the wye, its not in yard limits, its an interlocking, completely different rules inside the interlocking limits.

You could put an actual phone there, but talking on a phone to a guy standing 4 ft away seems a little much.  If the tower operator is in a different area of the layout, an FRS radio would work as a stand in for a phone, just put it on a different channel than any other radios to cut down interference.  

If the tower controls the whole wye then its not a matter of just one set of crews making one move, that means all the crews on all the moves will have to communicate with the operator to tell them what they are doing.

Another Conditional Stop Board

Hi Ken,

Unless you are running "line of sight" type rules within the yard limits, there probably should be another Conditional Stop Board at the exit of the Loco Area. This would prevent locos coming back in from the Loco Area from being sideswiped by passing traffic. 

My understanding is that if you are running US Yard Limit rules, then basically you are running "line of sight" type rules - any train can stop anywhere at any time and the trains have to dodge each other??  Not sure if I have this correct?

Can the Tower...

...control the turnouts inside the WYE like this line drawing shows?

Black Lines are part of Interlocking WYE. 
Peach color line on left side is mainline heading to Staging. 
Purple Line is mainline heading South to Pittsburgh.  
Blue Line is line heading towards Freight Yard
Green Line is Passenger Facility Tracks

The reason one turnout in Passenger Facility area is under control of Tower is because turnout that allows trains on mainline to leave mainline to enter Passenger Facility tracks is inside WYE and since if turnout is aligned to enter Passenger Facility tracks the corresponding turnout would need to be aligned to allow the trains for leaving the mainline and vice-versa.  

 
Thanks for all the information and corrections.

Ken L.

Interlocking

Back to square one.

Its either in yard limits or in interlocking limits.  Its not both.  Everything between the outer opposing home signals is in the interlocking and controlled by interlocking rules.  In an interlocking the train movements are controlled by signal indications that supersede the superiority of trains.  If there are yard limits, they can apply outside of the interlocking limits, but yard limits don't apply inside the interlocking limits.

You can have an interlocking "in yard limits", but its not really "IN" yard limits.  There is yard limits, the interlocking, then more yard limits.

You have to pick what you are doing.  Changing back and forth between scenarios with maybe interlocking and maybe yard limits is confusing things.

You can make the interlocking the entire wye, you can make it part of the wye, you do it without any interlocking.

What switches do you HAVE to have controlled remotely (by the tower)?

You could make everything in black the interlocking. 

Any switch touching the black would be operated by the tower operator and any route into the black would have to be signaled.  Any train or engine touching any part of the black would have to communicate what route it wants to the tower operator and the tower operator would line that route (this paragraph applies in any scenario that includes an interlocking).

You could make the peach to purple route, including the switches to the green, the interlocking, with the peach and purple beyond yard limits and the wye legs in to the yard, main tracks in yard limits. 

You could make the peach to purple route, including the switches to the green the interlocking, with the peach and purple beyond yard limits and the wye legs in to the yard not main tracks, they would not be in yard limits, just running tracks in the yard.  

The only reason the wye legs into the yard need to main tracks is if they is a main track through the yard and beyond it.  If the wye just terminates in the yard, there is no need for either of the wye legs to be main tracks.

OK. Reset Post

Sorry for causing confusion.  As more information is presented, I am making changes.

Here is where I am as of 11:20 PM EST, on 12-20-20:
%
The entire WYE will be under Interlocking Rules, with use of signals.  All other tracks in the immediate area will be under Yard Limit Rules.  

Though I do reserve the right to change my mind, given all the information provided in this thread, and my reluctance to have any kind of "remote" switch to change from Normal to Reverse for the Turnout on the far end of the WYE which is inaccessible to to the Road Crews is having me move to a Tower/Interlocking to control all trains in the WYE.  

So with that now reset, I am going to ask the outstanding questions I have as because I was not more clear in which solution I was going with when I was asking earlier.

#1) Though 99% of the trains proceeding through the WYE will be either on the Timetable and/or have a Train Order (for trains not on the Timetable, i.e. Extra's) there is still how would an Engine Crew speak to the Tower Operator to either A) proceed (originally from the Engine Terminal) through one leg of the WYE to the Track serving the Passenger Station/Platform orb) proceed from that Track through one leg of the WYE to eventually to the Engine Terminal

#2) Could/would the Locomotive Engineer ask the Tower for a specific path or would that be totally up to the Tower Operator?

#3) The turnout that is directly in the path of the main in the interlocking would definitely be under the control of the Tower.  But what about the other turnout?  I don't want to presume anything, but logic would say yes it also should be under the control of the tower because to manually throw one turnout in a crossover and have the tower control the other turnout would be introducing risk of derailment would it not? 

Thanks for being patient.

Ken L.

A's

1.  Doesn't matter whether trains have a schedule or not or "train orders" or not.  If its an interlocking, none of that has any bearing on anything.  Interlocking signals SUPERSEDE the the superiority of trains.  That means as far as authority goes only the signals count schedule doesn't matter, train orders don't matter (as far as authorizing train movement.).  The only thing that matters is what the operator has given the train and what signals the train gets.

2.  Normally the tower would be given what train it was, where it was coming from and where it was going.  So the yard master might call the tower on the phone and say," I've got the transfer out of the yard with engine 234 to the NKP."  The operator would line a route and signal from the blue to the peach.  The "engineer" might never have talked to the operator.  Back in the day the engineer wouldn't have a radio, the only way for the engineer to talk to the operator, would be to stop, get off his train, walk over to a phone box and call the operator.  The person requesting a route could ask for a specific route, normally they would request as specific entry and exit point and let the operator handle the middle.

3.  Which main track, you have a wye, there are three main tracks?  Which "other turnout"?  Are you talking about the "crossover" into the passenger yard?   If its a crossover, definitely, if its a distance away from the main,  where its a switch in the track leading to the platform, not necessarily.  If there is more than an engine length between the two switches, optional, less than an engine length definitely needs to be part of the interlocking.

If you control it, then that means you have to control movement over it.  I assume the part to the left goes to the REA or coach yard or something ancillary to the platform tracks.  What you could do is if its lined "normal" both signals over it (entrance from the coach yard and from the platform tracks) display "restricting" all the time and if the switch is lined reverse then the entrance from the coach yard displays stop and the entry from the platform tracks displays whatever the best signal is leaving.  That way the movements internal don't need to talk to the operator, they always have a signal allowing movement.

Clarification and follow up questions...

< < <

SIGH.  I am failing to ask the questions properly.  I do understand that the Timetable, Train Orders, Superiority of trains is irrelevant to the Tower Operator.  The Tower Operator would need to know which trains were heading in what direction, which is what the TT and TO’s would be fore, to inform the Tower Operator what trains to expect in what order.  So for the Locomotive Crew for the Passenger Local Train, they would need to proceed through the WYE and to get a signal to allow them to proceed, they would call from either the Call Box located by the Passenger Station Track (to proceed through the WYE to reach the engine service facility, or to call from the Ready Track before leaving the Engine Terminal to reach the Passenger Station Track.  Correct?
 

< < <

So the answer to my question above appears to be, yes it is correct. 
For the P&A Trains heading to the NYC Freight Yards (Collinswood or Erie) the P&A Yardmaster would call the only the P&A Tower Operator and not P&A the Dispatcher (since the train, after traversing the WYE, has less than two miles to reach the NYCS Mainline.  The P&A Yardmaster would need to call the NYCS Dispatcher as they would need to create a Train Order to create the Extra.  I would like to know, though it won’t be “modeled” since this train is going from the Yard to Staging, after calling the NYCS Dispatcher, would the P&A train crew need to receive its’ Train Order and Clearance Form A BEFORE leaving the Yard, OR would the crew wait until reaching the NYCS mainline and then at the Junction, receiving its’ Train Orders and Clearance Form A from the Station Operator at the Junction?  I realize that is beyond the scope of the OP, but this question came up.
 

< < <

I have decided to simplify things at South Erie.  The only portion of Passenger Train facilities being modeled on the Layout at South Erie, PA will be the Station itself.  With Erie, PA being so close by, and South Erie is going to be located in a more rural area in Northwest PA, I doubt there would be huge demand for REA services, and not sufficient volume of mail to justify a dedicated facility.  REA Shipments and Mail will be dealt with at the Station itself, and picked up/dropped off by either the NYCS/P&A Limited Trains or NYCS M&E Trains.  So the Green Main on the left side of the Interlocking turnout goes into staging, which will represent the small Coach Yard where cars for the Local Passenger Trains are serviced and prepped for the next Trick.   The Green Line that is the right of the Interlocking turnout is the track next to the passenger station.

The turnout in question is a crossover with the turnouts connected to each other, no distance apart.  Having the Tower control both turnouts in that crossover would be appropriate then. Thanks.

< < <

Thanks.  That is what I had hoped.  That when trains do not need to enter the interlocking, they can proceed at a restricted speed through the turnout.  When the Tower needs to align the turnout for the crossover for a train to enter/leave the WYE onto the Platform Track, then the Tower can make the alignment and the signal indicates stop. 



To add some additional background info, I should have mentioned much earlier, that the P&A Main that is under Yard Limits is less than 2 miles long to reach the NKP and NYC Mainlines.  On the model, the Freight Yard and Staging yard will be a very long loop where if I wanted to (but won’t do it unless I’m trying to “work in” a new locomotive) I could run the train continuously.  This will allow for NYC Trains from Buffalo enter from east end of the Yard (after traversing the WYE) and exit at the west end of the yard proceeding towards Chicago (and vice versa for trains from Chicago heading towards Buffalo.).  Both the Freight Yard and Staging Yard will be double ended.  Since this is staging, I’m not going to worry about the NYC Timetable and the minutiae about listing the P&A stop (though the P&A is part of the NYCS so it might be included in the NYCS Timetable, but as I said, that is moot as this is staging).  But the tower should know when to expect NYCS Freight Trains.

Ken L.

Contacting the tower

In a prototype scenario, the tower operator wouldn't know what orders any particular train had.  They wouldn't have access to them.  

Tower operators would have line ups from the dispatcher on what trains were coming from what direction and when they were last OS'd where.  Plus the tower operator would have access to the dispatcher phone line so would hear any of the other operators OS'ing trains.  The Tower would have pretty good idea what trains were coming in what order.

The trains would pretty much do the same thing every day, so the operator would have an idea what the trains were going to do.  Plus the tower would talk to the yard and the passenger terminal about what was inbound and where they wanted them (if there even was a choice of routes.  While the passenger or road crews might tell the operator what moves they wanted, the most likely communication was probably with the yardmasters or station masters because when the train was ready to go, the crew would be on the train.  If the operator talked to a departing train, they probably talked to the conductor who was at the phone box and the he conductor would board the caboose as it left.

In the model world they would just talk to the operator, they might have some sort of line up of when/what order the trains would run.

Since every move is "proceeding through the wye", not sure wye a local passenger train is making a trip around the wye.  How does a train proceed through the wye to get to a point where they have a signal to proceed ?

Assuming that the there is a train in the green spur that has to shove back into the platform tracks, the train would shove back through the crossover on a restricting signal into the platform track.  Then probably the station master would tell the operator the train was about ready to go, (of course the operator would know that because he knows the train is due out, what train it is and where it goes).  The operator would  line the local out of the platform track on to the main and clear the signals.

Of course, on the model railroad it will mostly likely actually be the crew that talks to the operator, so depending on where the operator is, that will determine what form of communication is used.  If the operator is someplace remote, then a radio would be appropriate, if the operator is sitting on the other side of the benchwork in the yard crew's aisle then just talking to the operator is what you'll probably do.

Since engines going to or from the yard or passenger terminal  and the engine facilities require reverse inside the interlocking to accomplish you'll have to make sure you have signals to cover the changes in direction.

For example, at the depot crossover,   Lets say the home signal for the interlocking is signal 10 and its 2 engine lengths from the crossover switch, and there is no signal 11.  If a engine is going to the depot, if would pull past the switches and be between signal 10 and the switch, there would be no signal to authorize the engine to move back through the crossover into the depot, its pretty well stuck.  A move can't just reverse directions in an interlocking.  To do it "right" you would need a signal at 11, so the engine would pull up between 10 and 11, then the operator could line it back onto the depot, and give it a signal at 11 to make the move.  Or have the home signal for the interlocking at signal 11, right at the switch, so when the engine pulls out on to the main it clears signal 11.  Same thing coming out of the depot, going to the roundhouse and a similar situation, possibly going between the yard and the roundhouse.

< < <

This is why I said 99% of the trains.  The one “group” of trains that do not go through the WYE are the six Local Passenger trains (3 originate and 3 terminate at the Station).  The Passenger Train CARS will not traverse the why. However, the Locomotives for the three originating Locals would go from the Engine Terminal through one leg of the WYE, then to the far end of the Passenger Station Track to the right, connect to the train and head South towards Pittsburgh.  And then for the three terminating Locals, they would cut off from the train, proceed on the right side leg of the WYE heading to the Engine Terminal and tie up there. 

The way I am justifying why the railroad would place the Passenger Station on the other side of the WYE is because the Passenger Trains (other than the Locals) all Originate in Buffalo, NY and are proceeding to Pittsburgh, PA.  If the Passenger Station was located on the bottom of the WYE, it would require the trains to pull in, uncouple, head to the opposite end of the train, couple, then proceed South. 

Prior to the NYCS acquiring the P&A, the P&A Passenger Facility was a very small one and was located at the far opposite end of the yard.  However, when the P&A became a part of the NYCS, and the only Passenger Trains that were exclusively P&A trains, were the Locals, the NYCS had to add the Station track, a small coach yard for the Coach and Baggage Cars for the Local’s in a tight spot so trains did not have to uncouple and switch ends.  This is why the tracks are arranged as they are.  Or would the railroad not care that by not moving the station all of the passenger trains would have to uncouple to switch ends each time it came to service the passengers at the South Erie Station?

Thanks for all of the particulars.  I'm doing my best to keep notes on all of this.  I wish I could remember it all, but there is so much information, and since this isn't a full time job, retaining this information like real employees of the prototype had to, is very difficult.

Ken L

...

I think the answer to part of your question lies right in your response here.  "When the tower needs to align the turnout for the crossover."  If the tower ever needs to align the crossover for any reason ever, then that crossover is 100% under the interlocking tower's limits at all times. 

As it has been mentioned, some of these movements would be coordinated between the yard operator and the interlocking operator.  If a train is taking the crossover to enter the yard and bypass the wye, then there would most certainly be communication anyway between the incoming train and the yard operator, and one or the other may even coordinate the full move from main into the yard, aka, the train requests clearance to enter the yard from the tower (or the yard), the yard (or tower) requests clearance from the interlocking (or yard), the yard (or interlocking) gives the clearance to the train with direct explicit directions in accordance with the yard (or interlocking) operator.  At no point would a move be coordinated through that crossover without both controllers giving explicit permission to proceed.

Your initial interest was to put all of this area under Yard Limits but alas you have an Interlocking District within your plan that necessitates an Interlocking Limits.  On your railroad, you can thus simplify your operation by putting two hats on the person who would be the Yard Operator so that he is both the Yard Operator and the Interlocking Operator with responsibilities towards both the Yard Limits and the Interlocking Limits.  Ideally, you have remote switches across the board and two panels, one for the yard operator and one for the interlocking operator, for controlling the two separate zones.  It's further a great opportunity for modeling two distinct towers.

This opens a new can of worms.  Some stations are on the leg of the wye because the passenger train will back in to the station, or they will pull in, let the passengers off, turn the train (using the wye) and then back in to the station to pick up the new passenger (plus any new potential mail, baggage pullman, business, or even coach cars that may be a part of the train in the other direction).  The operations at the Grand Canyon are similar to this, If I recall right.

In short, your station could be on any one of the three legs of the wye with no regards paid towards what direction trains head when they leave that station.

The location of the station is really best determined by what works best for business (and available land) in conjunction with what is feasibly possible in regards to track arrangements.

So how would management determine which solution..

To relocate to a new station or to keep were the old station is?  Adding additional moves, delaying a Passenger Train costs money does it not? So how would they figure out what was the most cost effective.  Leave it or not.  I still need the Tower handling the WYE because they would not change crews for the Class 1 Trains coming from Buffalo as the RR wouldn't pay a crew a full day's wages for a few hours of work.  I figure the Class 1 Trains could reach from Buffalo to Pittsburgh well within 8 hours (if what has been told me to is accurate AND I understand it correctly, which has been shown not to be the case, SIGH).  Thank goodness this isn't a Class or I would be failing at it.  And I don't understand why I can't absorb it like I can Legal stuff.  I won't give examples here, but I can read Legal Briefs, and remember the details of this case or that case without problem, and I don't work as a paralegal, but I pick up on that stuff every quickly.  You, or Dave, or the others will mention something, and I totally mess it up.  SIGH Ah well  Some day I finally will "get it", or I will be dead, at which point it really won't matter would it. 

Thanks>

Ken L. 

crossover

Either the switch is in the interlocking (and protected by signals) or it isn't. No "sometimes" or "under this situations" or "when needed".