Progress Continues

Progress continues on the layout design. Since the last update I have made a lot of changes:

-Contemplating using all #5 turnouts to simplify and reduce cost of track building (planning to use Fast Tracks) and have replaced all turnouts with #5s for now.

-Split the yard from the front loop, which removes the need to put a reverse loop in and also makes the plan more interesting to operate.

-Added run around tracks at the port and near the gas station.

-SCARM file (Version 7B) is available in the shared folder I put in the first post.

-I am thinking of turning the city scene into a roundhouse and service yard. This wouldn't affect the loop design and wouldn't be until much later so no need to decide now.

Benchwork has also started! The left corner loop is framed up and just needs legs. Here we go.

Era choices for Vancouver

It looks like an interesting plan.  I live in the Greater Vancouver and passed through this area regularly commuting on West Coast Express, at least pre-Covid.  A few questions:

 - what is the radius on your turn back loops?  Might be tight if you plan to run larger steam locomotives and passenger cars if you plan to have the main CP station at Waterfront.  I don't see any reference to the station in the plans so I assume you won't be modelling it?  Passenger operations were important back in the eras you talk about.  

 - CN, CP, GN and the Canadian Harbour Board operated on the Vancouver waterfront area, depending on the era.  Is this going to focus on one of those operations or have several of them included?

 - Including Rogers Sugar is a key element on the waterfront.  Will your industries include things like any of the grain terminals, Pier A/B and Pier B/C or the CP rail car ferry terminal?  There is also the GN car float as well.  These were also important as was the tank farm and coal terminal in the Coal Harbour (I wonder where that name came from...)  

 -  There was a tunnel that ran from west of the station (now used by Skytrain) to Yaletown that traffic to and from that area travelled including all passenger equipment.  It looks like that could be accommodated on the layout fairly easily.  Is that the plan for the tunnel opening near Hastings Lumber Mill?

None of the above is meant as a critique, just trying to get a feel for what you are going to be doing here.  The Vancouver Archives has a lot of material, and I know a few people here in the area who either have modelled or are modelling this area as well.    

Thanks Marc!

Thanks Marc! Your feedback is helpful.

The Waterfront station is something I really do want to include but dropped as I didn’t want things to get too cramped or *feel* small and I am hesitant to cram too many things in. This is why its turned into more of an industrial switching layout of some of the Waterfront. That said, you got me thinking that I might be able to remove the rail served industrial flat spur to the right of Rogers Sugar at the back and instead put a shallow station and 2-3 tracks modeled off of this image. Hmmmm…

The return loops are minimum 22” at the tightest. Not great but continuous running is a must (sometimes you just want to sit and watch after a long day) and I am not sure how to make them larger. I think this should be OK for longer cars/engines from a reliability standpoint and visually most of the actual loops will be hidden so you won’t see these infrequent longer cars; the left loop will be behind taller warehouses (will have an access hatch for derailments) and the right loop will have the tunnel with access.

The tunnel is indeed the Dunsmuir tunnel. The loop portal is going to be modeled after the False Creek entrance (photo below) and the other entrance will be visibly blocked.

It is focusing on CP. I plan to turn the unnamed industries to the left of the gas station and the team into a grain elevator/waterfront businesses but plan to detail these over time (e.g. team track could be turned into a rail barge) but plan to get the main loop in earlier to get running.

At this point I’m very open to major re-works and changes, even benchwork! I think the actual benchwork is pretty firm though. It won't overwhelm the room or make it feel too cramped. The unmovable support pole in the middle is also annoying. Anyway, I have updated the design image below to show how the stairs and storage room actually work.

Looks like a fun plan to operate on.

Being from California, I'm not at all familier with Vancouver.  My wife and did take an Alaska cruise a few years ago and the ship stopped in Victoria.  How close is the main terminus of the C.P. to the harbor?  In Los Angeles, the LAUPT (Union Station) is downtown about 30 miles from L.A. harbor.  I bring this up because if you are modeling the harbor, the main frieght yards as well as the passenger station might be miles away from the harbor.  I'm not sure how much large steam was around in the 1920's especially if you are modeling closer to 1920 than the late 20's.  In any event I would think that you would be more likely to see relatively small steam handling local freight going from the main freight yard out to the harbor or from the harbor to the main freight yard to go East on the C.P. mainline to the rest of Canada.

What I'm getting at is that your focus will probably on short local freights pulled by small steam engines instead large steam running to the East Coast.  

If you are running small steam, the #5 switches should work fine.  You probably don't need a large locomotive facility, since the main loco shops would be off layout.

Toying with some changes

Planning and actual layout building continues. The first module (far left corner) is fully framed with legs. Module 2 frame is cut and I'll probably put it together tomorrow. I also ordered Fast Tracks jigs and such!

Design-wise I'm on version 8 now. Two big changes:

1) Prompted by Russ, I have been thinking of how to include CP's Waterfront station; it is so central (literally) and historic it would be a shame to ignore. There isn't much room to model the actual wharves in the center module - it would have to be just the platforms, which might not be so bad - so I am thinking of either widening the module a bit or getting rid of one of the yard tracks. I'm not too keen to make things even bigger (this has run away a bit already) but the yard is getting small; I could repurpose the passenger track next to the yard as a dual purpose track.

2) Adding Pier "B" to the main layout - I still can't figure out a way to add a pier like the real pier B's that have ship berths on each side. As a compromise I have added a "pier" with water access on one side. Not ideal, but, like the station, it is a key scene and it is the best idea I have to capture the spirit of the piers.

Lots to think about!

And here is a shot of the real station to give a bit of context of what I am thinking of.

And here is a shot of the actual piers and how the station/roads connected.

here is a shot of the actual piers

Wow, that's a cool scene. Lots of interesting stuff going on there. It looks like the best way to model it would be with access to both sides of the layout. Move it out from the wall and add an aisle down the passenger station side then build  the ship piers on short peninsulas extending out towards the furnace room. Looks like more piers off in the distance, are they Rogers sugar? What is along the waterfront closer to and behid the photographer's location? ......DaveB

Waterfront Station is a must have

I like the new plan.  Not including Waterfront station in Vancouver would be like not having the loop if you are modelling Tehachapi.  One idea might be to not have phase 4 and instead have Pier B/C where you have the warehouse along the yard currently.  You may be able to have trackage along a narrower than prototype building.  

A suggestion as well:  Take a look at Colin Dover's CP Waterfront layout.  He modelled it in the steam era and did a great job of it.  He has since dismantled that layout and replaced it with the BC Electric which is a great prototype as well.   Colin Dover CP Waterfront layout

Another redesign

Thanks for the comments! Dave - Rogers Sugar is actually farther east (those photos are looking northeast) and I have attached maps for some context (Rogers is past Hastings sawmill.

Marc - Thanks for the link. As you suggested moving the pier, I have now gone full circle and am back to trying to fit in pier B/C as it should be - jutting out from the waterfront.  This time I have dropped having a ship at the dock and the pier doesn't have the middle tracks. This gets it down to 2'X4' / 2' X3' short side and can be built as a standalone module. All.. "aisles".. or anywhere you can stand is minimum 2' wide including on both sides of the pier. I also flipped the Rogers Sugar building(s) and tracks (exact layout TBD) - the building would have been hard to make look right and closer to the real world layout anyway.

While pondering, I have framed up the first 5X2 section and the corner is done now except for adding a backdrop, which I will do after laying track. My Fast Tracks shipment arrived too so I'll try building a few switches while I ponder some more.

And here's maps of how things were really laid out for those interested.

This looks like a really fun

This looks like a really fun concept! I have visited Vancouver once, and I left with lasting excitement about the waterfront railyards, despite having hardly a clue at the time of how Vancouver's rail terminals were laid out. Since then, I've been reading more and more about them.

I have a couple ideas, from least to largest effect on construction:

1) Would you benefit from having at least one staging track? I know you plan to mostly do switching, and I find it helps to have a place to originate trains. You also mentioned continuous run, and I know I like having a place to store all of my trains! Even just one staging track, let's say hidden along the back wall, could prove very useful, and it would require minimal maintenance since you wouldn't need to have hidden switches. A more involved version of staging could involve dropping the railroad down a level on the return loops, and having more staging tracks on a lower level along the back wall. Building it wouldn't be difficult, especially since it doesn't look like you plan deep scenic cuts (just enough to get down to water along the wharf).

2) If you were to implement some sort of staging, would it make sense then to rework the plan to not need to separate the terminal tracks from the switching tracks in front? It looks like you've got them separated to avoid tiny reversing sections. But, if you added some form of staging and then un-separated the two sections of visible track, then you'd have something perhaps more closely resembling the prototype track arrangement actually.

3) Module sizes: I noticed you're planning a bit in terms of modules, which suggests perhaps you want to be able to move things in the future, which is great. Since your plan will require lots of tracks across the module boundaries, which can be a bit annoying to plan for (learned that from experience), it might be nice to reduce the number of module joints if possible. Have you possibly experimented with the longest table you can do while still being able to get it up your stairs? That might be useful, to see if you can maybe turn the three middle modules along the wall into 2, meaning one fewer joint .

4) I had a couple thoughts to throw out in terms of the overall benchwork footprint, which you may have thought of already and ruled out, but I want to make sure you heard the ideas:

4a) It looks as though you have enough space where the optional 4th phase pier is, to move the left-end turnback loop there. Then, your track could wrap along the optional section, giving you a bit longer run. Not sure if this is a gain over the existing plan from your perspective of the piers and traffic. You could turn your workbench 90 degrees so that the chair faces "up-diagram" to make that space available. You'd lose a bit of free movement space for operators though.

4b) Have you considered making it more of an around-the-room plan, rather than using the turnback loops? You could do it across the middle of the room, and do a lift bridge for access approximately where the foundation support pole is - a lift bridge would be easy to build, and you could keep it open while doing construction, and close it only when operating. Or, you could even potentially elevate the railroad enough that a nod-under wouldn't be problematic: I do a nod under on my layout, and I really haven't minded it at all (whereas I hate duck-unders with the fiery passion of a thousand suns). And, even more extreme: could you wrap a track all the way around the walls of the room, behind the furnace and the stairs? Crazy, I know - I only suggest this last possibility because it would make fitting your piers in the middle of the room really natural, because of all the space you free up from the turnback loops.

5) Here's one wacky idea that you might want to shoot down out of the gate: Is there any value in flipping the plan such that the wharves are on the wall? The reason I say that is, I remember the wharves have lots of tall objects like elevators (at least today). Those sorts of things are particularly well suited to backdrop buildings (though, to be fair, they're super impressive when they're out front). And, then you also could have the towering Coast Mountains in your actual backdrop. 

Looks promising

I think the idea of Pier B/C at the location you have it looks good.  You should be able to access all the switches and trackage in that area easily from the aisles.  One item of interest is that CP had their engine service facility for the yard engines in front of Pier B/C in the form of a sand tower and some basic service buildings.  You have a stub ended track in that area that would work for the yard engine service area.  

Based on where you have Rogers Sugar and the station you  would be looking south into downtown Vancouver so no mountains required as those would be behind you to the north across the harbour.  You would be standing in the harbour while working on the layout. 

I have quite a few historic photos of the downtown area from the 1950's through the 1970's that are not online.  Drop me a line and we can work out something if you are interested in more photos of the area.

Thanks ssagrawal and Marc

Great feedback! I am still digesting ssagrawal but some initial thoughts:

1) Staging - Good point. I might repurpose the (optional?) expansion for this or as double duty for an industry and staging, and have done this for now (see latest full plan below). I do not want tracks that are not easily accessable and, at least for now, want to keep this as one level. If I get real ambitious I could extend this over the workbench... add levels.. ideas for down the line. I'm pretty worried about scope creep and want to get this up and running as I'm sure I'll want to change things no matter how well I plan.

2) Separation - You are right that I did this to avoid reversing sections, but I also did it to make it a bit more interesting/longer runs operationally. I might connect them in the end as it would make more sense, but can always do that later.

3) module sizes - What you see is the largest sizes I can fit down the stairs! I learned they fit barely - I built the corner and the first 5X2 in the garage and moved downstairs.

4a/b) I think I understand you; basically have the turnback look above the workbench area. as in 1), maybe this should be a loop.. If I keep going I'll end up with a few helixes and trains in the upstairs bathroom. Same goes for around the room. When I finish the benchwork, trackwork and a scene or two I'll let myself consider these... I don't want to get stuck in design/build like so many other layouts I've seen. Thankfully I do think that these ideas can be added without a lot of rework.

Marc - Thanks again. I sent you a note. Good catch on the stub ended track. That's the inspiration for it! I'm going to put a bit more though into it though and see if I can have a bit more space for it. I have also thought about turning the raised downtown loop into the Yaletown roundhouse, but I don't need to worry about that for now (it's being built last).

Here's the latest plan. You can also download the actual SCARM file here - https://www.dropbox.com/sh/kqsekfbmt3q0scz/AADK02MxWPG6q2x5fRqiaVOVa?dl=0

Nice plan

Makes perfect sense, Teagon! Well now that you mention it, I do have an idea that involves a helix ... *just kidding!!*.

By the way, I do think the loop setup is a clever way to get in some running while serving industries .