Very Interesting Program

I saw the presentation this afternoon, and it was excellent.  Easy to follow and layed it out so anyone could "get it".  Thanks Mr H.  I learned a lot.

bill

Thanks

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it.  Trackage rights projects were some of the last projects I was working on before I retired.

Putting a face with the name

I sat in on your presentation yesterday Dave, very nicely done, you covered all the finer points. Now, what I'd like to see is a layout tour of the W&N! 

That is EXACTLY what we need!

Thanks Dave! Awesome Clinic.  May I suggest coming to Cocoa Beach in January some year and give that clinic at the RPM Conference! I'm sure there are many who would enjoy it, and be able to ask questions.

I have one actually (at the moment) that I would like to ask.

You mentioned that under Trackage Rights that the Host RR had to be notified by the Tenant RR 12-24 hours in advance.  Actually there are a few questions but they are on this specific topic of advance notice:

First, for scheduled trains, under TT&TO, would Tenant RR need to update Host RR Dispatcher of Multiple sections of a scheduled train?

Second, for scheduled trains, what happens when their authority has expired?  How does the Tenant RR notify the Host RR 12-24 hours in advance that a particular train, especially one that has more than one section, that a scheduled train is running behind schedule and will need a Train Order to proceed on the Host RR?  I know you said Dispatchers talk to one another, i'm trying to understand how advance notice would be given for that situation.  

Third question has to do with Extra's.  Would the Tenant RR have to literally call the Host RR for every extra, even those that occurred on a regular basis?  I'm thinking of Coal Trains that normally ran as Extra's, but ran on a consistent basis.  

On a side note, if you could ever do a clinic on Extra's, what exactly are they (on the prototype), why did RR's have them, how often were they used (i know dependent on era as less scheduled trains the more "modern" time progresses).  I suspect what us modeler's consider an "Extra" and how they are used is quite different than what the prototype considers them.

Thanks again Dave for an awesome clinic! 

Ken L

W&N

The W&N is under construction expanding into the northern half of the plan, so I will probably wait until I get that a little more in operation.

Thanks for the feedback, it was fun to present.

@Ken

Glad you enjoyed the clinic.

The notification wasn't a rule but plain old communication.  The host railroad might need time to plan things and the tenant railroad will want to know about maintenance and outages that might affect their trains.  Trains have to be added to lineups on the host railroad that the MofW uses to patrol and do track maintenance.  If a train isn't on the line up then it has to be held up to 3 or 4 hours until the next line up is issued. 

They should if they want the host railroad to operate them.  Remember, railroads do not have unlimited capacity to run trains.  A line has only a certain limit to how much it can process.  If a line normally handles 12 trains and the tenant surprises the host with an additional 10 trains out of the blue, things are going to get dicey as far as taking them.  

Modelers underestimate the amount of communication that goes on between dispatchers on adjoining territories and foreign lines.  There is absolutely ZERO advantage to not telling the other dispatcher, system or foreign what's coming.

They become an extra.

Its a line up.  Its a list of trains and when they are expected at the junction:

No 42  600pm

Extra 234 West  635pm

2nd No 42 645pm

Extra 678 West 840pm

No 346  1030 pm

Its a line up.  Its a list of trains and when they are expected at the junction:

No 42  600pm

Extra 234 West  635pm

2nd No 42 645pm

Extra 678 West 840pm

No 346  1030 pm

Coal trains normally don't run on a consistent basis unless there are so many coal trains they just couple up a cut of coal cars once an hour or whatever and go with it.  Unit trains (which wouldn't operate in your era), tend to operate on very irregular patterns.  We tried to schedule rock trains for years and never got it to work.  Unit coal trains don't run on a "regular" basis, even the "regular" ones.  When the train is loaded it goes.  When its empty it goes.  Doesn't matter what time it is.

What type of "extras"  are you talking about?  "Train order" extras or "business level" extras?

A train order extra is any train not listed in the time table.  If a train runs as a regular train it "has" to run at a certain time on a certain route.  If it runs as an extra you can run it early, you can run it late, you can change the route.  If you don't run it, there is nothing that has to be done.

Business "extras" are trains that are needed to handle excess business or business that doesn't fit into the normal network.  A section is in a way an "extra' regular train.

On the MP (and later the UP)  here's the way we worked it.

There were scheduled freight trains on the major routes.  The divisions and Service Design would plan what trains should be run and create schedules for those trains.  The schedules were templates that said when the train should run, what type and destinations of business (blocks) it should carry and what route it should travel.

ALL of the trains I will discuss in this paragraph operate as TT&TO extras, NONE of them operate on a timetable schedule.  Lets say you had a train between Houston (HO) and Ft Worth (FW).  The base train might be the HOFW.  If Houston generated more traffic than one HOFW could carry on a consistent basis then they would run a second scheduled train, HOFWB.  If there was normally only one HOFW, and for some reason there was more of the exact same traffic traveling the exact same route, we would run a "section" of the HOFW, 2HOFW.  If there was more traffic than the HOFW could carry but the route was different (originates at a different yard in Houston or terminates a a different spot in Ft Worth) or maybe carries a block the HOFW doesn't normally carry (a block of San Antonio cars to set out at Valley Jct), then we would run it as an extra, XHOFW.  If its a completely unique train that will operate one time from non-typical OD pair, then we would create an ad hoc extra schedule.  For example a train between Galveston and Denison, TX, XGVDN.

Obviously this is how one railroad did it.  The MP/UP and the BNSF have very detailed schedules that very specifically denote the train type and origin-destination (OD) points.  Other railroads aren't necessarily that detailed.  Some have a single letter/number code for an entire division and then just go between divisions (I think the CSX and NS use or used a system like this).  The SP would take the closest similar schedule and run the extra as a section of that schedule, detouring it as required.

Third question has to do with

Keep in mind the timetable in TT&TO is "just" a dispatching tool.

I would assume the tenant RR just tells the host any time they need to run ANY train. Dispatching them is up to the host railroad. That means running the tenant train on its own regular schedule, as a section of another schedule, or as an extra is entirely up to the host railroad.

A timetable schedule is basically a train's movement authority over an entire line, and dictates how they meet other trains. I don't think you want a clinic on "how extras work", that's pretty basic to how you use TT&TO. Maybe a "demystifying TT&TO concepts" presentation?

Thanks Dave, I have one more..

Dave,  one more question came to mind.

If there are scheduled trains for the Tenant RR that the Host RR already knows about, A) would the Host RR include Tenant RR's Trains in the Host RR's Timetable andb) would they be given the same time of authority (i.e. 12 hours)?  

Thank again.

Ken L. 

Other things you can do to schedules

There are other things you can do to schedules that are rarely done on model railroads, primarily because most model railroads only model one crew district and so are too short for them to be relevant.

You can:

Annul trains, an instance of a "regular" train operating on a certain day doesn't run.  

Front end annul trains, a train starts someplace beyond its normal origin point (train runs from New York to Chicago, but today its going to originate from Pittsburgh).

Rear end annul trains, a train terminates before its normal destination point (train runs from New York to Chicago, but today its going to terminate at Cleveland).

Annul both ends (top and tail) a train originates beyond its normal originate and terminates before its normal destination (train runs from New York to Chicago, but today its going to originate from Pittsburgh, and going to terminate at Cleveland).

Consolidate two schedules, normally the HOFW runs at 900am and the HOFWB runs at 800pm but we don't have enough traffic to run both so we consolidate the HOFW into the HOFWB and run the just HOWFB.  That automatically schedules all the cars from both trains into the HOFWB (in the MP/UP system).  The schedules can also be head end or rear end consolidated.

Reroute a train over your own railroad.  Instead of operating on my railroad  from Houston to Ft Worth to Kansas City, I'm going to route it from Houston to Little Rock to Kansas City.  Or, Houston is really congested so I will send the FWHO train to Beaumont to be switched instead (a "friendship" train).

Detour a train over another railroad.  There is a big derailment at DeQuincy, LA so I will detour the Houston to New Orleans train over the SP from Beaumont to Avondale, LA (a really cool photo opportunity because it will be Southern power on an MP train operating on the SP).

While very few model railroads are big enough to need to do all these things, they can use parts of some of those to occasionally add (or subtract) a train from the mix.  Add in an extra train to be switched because the yard that was supposed to switch it is overloaded.  Throw in a couple extra trains from a competing railroad that are detouring over your railroad due to a derailment on their line.  Even better, if you have an interchange, bring them on or take them off at that interchange.  Run a passenger train where there isn't normally passenger service due to a tie gang or a problem on the northern route.  Last week Amtrak, that normally runs from Salt Lake to Denver over the former DRGW, operated over the UP through Wyoming due to wild fires in western Colorado.

If there are scheduled trains

Yes if the host wants to run them as a regular train.

That's a rule that applies at all regular schedules.  If its in the time table, its in the time table.

Extras

If the host wants to run a tenant train on its own schedule then the host has to include the tenant train's schedule in its timetable, in other words, making it a scheduled train on the host railroad.  Not that uncommon with passenger trains.

Or the host can operate whatever train it wants on what ever schedule it wants on its railroad.  The MKT had three scheduled freights and Amtrak operating as regular trains on the portion where the MP had trackage rights between Ft Worth and Waco, TX.  The Katy would use the schedules as needed.  If MKT No 103 was late and the HOFW was on hand to run at that time that might run the HOFW (or an empty grain or coal train) as No 103 to use the schedule.  Much less work on the dispatcher.  The crowning achievement was running a deadheading detector car on AMTK No 22's schedule.  The Katy was a scrappy, creative railroad.

That was a nice presentation.

You thoroughly covered most situations where the previous explanations I have seen were one offs. I was never sure if I had all the parts of the concept together. 

More questions Dave...

Sorry for continuing to ask questions, but as I think about Trackage Rights and how they "fit in" to what I want to do, new one's keep popping up! 

OK, so Host RR decides to add Tenant RR trains to it's Timetable.  To be more specific in my case, Host RR is a branchline Tenant RR is using this line for it's mainline, and part of the agreement to obtain the trackage rights was to upgrade the condition of the line as well as other "carrots" to get Host RR to agree.  So Host RR scheduled trains are on the Host RR Timetable, would the Tenant RR need to carry a copy of Host RR Timetable, or would the Tenant RR's Timetable would include Host RR's scheduled trains, along with "Special Instructions" for any rules for Host RR trackage?

And a quick follow up, who exactly would call Host RR Dispatcher to inform them about A) Additional Sections of Scheduled Trains andb) Extra's?  The Tenant RR Dispatcher?  As I understand how the prototype worked concerning Sections, it was up to the Yardmaster who knew how many cars he needed to get from his yard to the next on certain scheduled trains so he would create Sections as needed, so would the Tenant RR Yardmaster call his own Dispatcher and the Tenant RR Dispatcher would call the Host RR Dispatcher, or would the Tenant RR Yardmaster call the Host RR Dispatcher to inform him of the additional sections (and extra's).

I should mention my questions are for circa early 1950s.

Thanks again.

Ken L. 

Where were schedules written?

When dispatchers were informed from tenant RR's of trains that were to traverse the host RR's trackage, and the Dispatcher "approved" these trains, where exactly was this information written?  On the Train Sheet or (Please forgive me I can't recall the proper term for it right now) the "Log Book" - where the Dispatcher writes every train order down and when fulfilled crosses it out?  Obviously it would have to be something more than a scrap piece of paper because when the next dispatcher comes in, and the tenant RR's train hasn't even arrived yet, that dispatcher should know, so how was this information recorded?  Was there an actual form just for the "schedule"?  

How often would the Tenant RR contact the Host RR informing him of trains that were not on the schedule already (such as those that the Host RR already had listed on their Timetable)?  As soon as a train was known, or at certain times of the day or both?  

Thanks again Dave.  Your clinic and answers have greatly enhanced my understanding of the subject.  I hope to put it to very good use! 

Ken L. 

Extras

I am assuming you meant to say that the "tenant RR scheduled trains are in the Host RR timetable."

As I said in the presentation, the trackage rights trains use the host railroad's timetable and rule book.

Not only would the host railroad's schedules not be in the tenant timetable, if its like most situations I've seen, the host's railroad wouldn't even be in the tenant's timetable.   Many tenant timetables just show a gap in the station column and a notation like "Operation 37.2 miles  Erie RR.", UNLESS there are scheduled trains with station stops at the stations (which would require the tenant to have the rights to perform local service).  I have seen timetables where the host and the tenant use the same rule book, that the tenant special instructions might have specific rule exceptions applicable to the host railroad, in the tenant SI.

Probably would be the dispatcher since they put out lineups.

The yardmaster might decide when he WANTS to run an extra, but yardmasters want a lot of things.  It would be the Asst Chief, Terminal Supt. or the Div. Superintendent that would probably decide whether or not they actually ran another train.  In order to run a train that somebody wasn't counting on, they would need power, caboose, crew, if it was a passenger train they would need passenger cars.  Real railroads don't have a drawer under the tracks they can just reach into and magically come up with extra equipment.

Sorta.  The tenant follows whatever protocol there is to run whatever trains they want to run regardless of where they are.  Trackage rights has NO bearing on it.  The dispatch offices communicate what trains they are going to run regardless of whether its one train or 100 trains, regular trains, sections or extras. 

The yardmaster plans what trains he's going to run with his supervisors.  If he wants to run an extra, his people may say yes, his people may say no.  He might have to run it tomorrow or the next day, depending on power/crew/caboose availability.  The superintendent might be over budget and say no extras, roll the tonnage to the next day's train and run it at maximum footage.

1980's version:  If a yard wanted to run an extra, they would call me in the General Supt's office, I would check with system Op Con about power, if that checked out, then I would put in a schedule.  That would start the crew management people arranging the crews and the dispatchers would see it on their line ups. 

By the 2000's if yards wanted to run an extra or a section they had to request it 24 hours before they wanted to run it.  The dispatch office would check how big the regular train was, how big other trains were going to be that might be able to pick up or to carry the traffic and how big the next day's trains were going to be.  They would check to see how reliable the size estimates where for the terminal (if they said they wanted to run a 100 car extra last week, did they run 1oo cars or only 50).  Then the dispatch office would check the subdivisions over which the train would operate and see if they had capacity to handle an extra.  If all that checked out, the schedule would be created and that gave time to get crews and power in place.

Info

General comment.  You are making this waaaaaaaaay harder than it really is.

There isn't necessarily an "approval" process. 

The tenant dispatcher sends the host dispatcher a line up.  That's a piece of paper.  A list.  The host dispatcher has a desk.  He places the line up on the desk or in a cubbyhole on the desk.

As a tenant dispatcher I want to run a train that will be at MY crew change at 315pm.  I call my  crew callers at 115pm and tell them to call that train for 245 pm.  At 130 pm the crew callers give me a call sheet, a piece of paper, that says which people they called on that train.  They give me a sheet of paper like that for EVERY train that I call, regardless of whether it is a trackage rights train or not.  I turn around and add the engine and train data to that information and then I (or most likely the "wire" clerk)  send a message to the host dispatcher.   The host dispatcher gets a similar message from his crew callers for all the trains he calls on his railroad.    When he goes to run/clear the train, he enters the information on the train sheet.   When I go to run/clear the train on my territory, I put the information on my train sheet.  That's the big sheet dispatchers use to record train movements.

Actually no, it was a "scrap" of paper.  But it was a "scrap" of paper in a process designed to do this day in and day out for every single train operated on every single railroad in the entire country.  Every single train every single dispatcher operated on every single railroad had a call sheet that was handed to the dispatcher.  Every single dispatcher on every single railroad generated lineups, mostly for his maintenance of way.  This isn't anything special.  Its what railroads do, it how they did business.

They would generate line up a couple times a shift.  The line up is for EVERY train, not just extras.  EVERY train, scheduled or not scheduled.  Day in, day out.  Just because you have a scheduled train doesn't mean its running on time.  If you have a first class train running 4 hours late the host dispatcher is going to need to know that waaaaaaaaaay before the train shows up at the junction.  If the host puts a tenant scheduled train in the host timetable then its a "host" scheduled train.  ALL of the host railroad's trains have to respect the schedule.  Doesn't matter if its a host or a tenant train, if its a first class train in the timetable, its a first class train.  Period.

Sorry for making it complicated...

In my zeal to mimic prototype operations I'm trying to not only understand the big picture, but the minutiae as well.

When I attended clinics on TT&TO, PAPERWORK was deemed essential.  Even copies of Train Orders were kept and there always seemed to be an official form for everything, not just for Train Crews (i.e. Form 19, Clearance Form A etc) but for Dispatchers as well  I had presumed there was official "line up" forms, since if something happens and there was a foul up with communications, and a situation occurred. a Div. Super is going to want to know who screwed up and why!  Without paperwork, it would make that task more difficult.  But anyways thanks for clarifying things.

EDIT: Sorry, read what you said again more carefully.  Tenant RR crews carry Host RR Timetable with them.

Thanks again, and I apologize again for tasking you with some many questions that is really digging into the weeds as well as complicating things that appear far more simpler than I thought.

Ken L

Questions

Questions are fine.

You just don't realize that this is part of a larger system that operates the same way everywhere (common modeler thing).

For example, A typical railroad has many dispatchers, each handling a portion of the railroad.  In the offices I worked there were dispatchers who handled less than 100 miles of track and there were dispatchers who handled almost 1000 miles of track.  Depends on the train density.

But at every boundary between dispatchers a process similar to the trackage rights process goes on between dispatchers on the same railroad.  Take the Houston-Ft Worth example in the presentation.  The first MP dispatcher that touches the train is the MP Palestine Sub dispatcher, but the train gets to Spring Junction and leaves the Palestine Sub and gets on the Ft Worth Sub dispatcher's territory.  Pre-computer, that same hand off that happens between the host and tenant goes on between the Palestine and Ft Worth Sub dispatchers on the same railroad.  Pre 1980's, the dispatcher on adjoining territories might not even physically be in the same office, they might in in offices hundreds of miles apart.  A MP train going from Houston to San Antonio would be handled by three MP dispatchers, the first two in Palestine, TX and the third in San Antonio, TX.  One MP dispatcher might have to give the other MP dispatcher of line up of trains (and vice versa) and might have to send call sheets to him (and vice versa).

Line ups are not writ in stone, they change as the day goes on, trains get later, trains get earlier, trains get annulled, trains get added.  Line ups are more or less "informational", they convey no authority to the movement of trains.  Call sheets are "informational", they convey no authority to the movement of trains.  As such they aren't documents of record.  There is no legal requirements to retain them  (there is a legal requirement to retain trains sheets and train order books).

The railroad offices are set up to handle those messages and there is at least a short term paper trail.  The wire clerk that sent the message has a copy and the wire clerk that received the message probably typed it in manifold (railroads used LOTS of carbon paper).  Its quite possible that the Superintendent or Chief dispatcher got a copy of the line ups just to see how things were going.

Once railroads started to computerize, the majority of that paper trail internally went away.  It was all in the computer and anybody who needed the information could access it any time they wanted.

Fun fact:  you can/could tell who was an old school railroader (especially a dispatcher) if they called a message or an e-mail a "wire".  A friend of mine and I were just discussing that the other day, joking about sending him a "wire".

Adjusting to computers

True story.

The MP had a messaging system, "Admin Message", that allowed messages to be sent and stored.  Cutting edge, state of the art technology, the envy of other railroads in 1980.  Every message sent had a "marker" at the end of the message, a code for the end of the message to make sure you knew you got the whole message.

An old school General Manager was reading his messages and there was one putting out instructions contrary to what he wanted.  He got mad and went to his secretary and started chewing him out (back in those days all the officer's secretaries were men) for putting out the message.  The secretary, Ernest O. Malkowsky, denied putting out the message and they got into a big argument about it.  The General Manager told yes, he did, and the proof was his initials were at the the bottom of the message, "EOM".  I had to explain to him that that meant "end of message" and was on every message.

Dave...

... I honestly think it would be awesome if you had a monthly column sharing stories like this in MRH! Even though I do not model the 1980s, hearing stories like this is just awesome!  My dad was an auto mechanic for 25 years before being hired by Harrison Radiator to work in Field Test.  He has so many stories about working on cars, that even though I"m not really interested in auto mechanics, listening to his stories is just awesome.  Like the time a lady came in with a car, and said when she went to the Dairy Queen and had chocolate or vanilla ice cream, when she got back to the car, everything was fine, but if she had ANY other flavor, the car wouldn't start!!!  Long story short, reason why was Vanilla and Chocolate were up front, readily accessible, it took longer to get the other flavors which were at a different spot, and the extra time created the problem.  I forget some of the details but that kind of story, totally irrelevant to anything in life for me, but it's an awesome story.  My dad has hundred's of them.  So if you ever have the time and inclination, a monthly column of "From the Dispatcher's Desk" would be an awesome addition to MRH!  FWIW.  

Thank again for the clinic, answering questions, and sharing stories.  

Ken L

Excellent clinic Dave

Thanks for posting that, I learned quite a bit, including things I didn’t know I didn’t know.

Plausibility is key

Bravo to Dave H. for sharing his insight from his years at UPRR, especially how historically trackage rights (and later, haulage rights and reciprocal switching) were negotiated, awarded and sometimes - mandated by merger conditions imposed by the ICC and STB. I also liked the example of a city consolidating rail operations to free up "brownfield" space for urban renewal. Here in Michigan we have the example of Amtrak's Michigan Line (former Penn Central-Conrail-NS) merging onto CN's former GTW South Bend Sub in Battle Creek, MI. Back in the '70s the PC or CR abandoned its downtown riverfront mainline between Barron and Gord interlockings in favor of the GTW route being joint trackage between those two points. Doing something similar in miniature is a natural way to combine two favorite prototypes onto one line, albeit the host road retains switching rights to the local industries in most cases.

Variety

Thanks for feedback!

I tried to pick examples with a whole lot of stuff going on to give a variety of options, yet be compact and modelable, and to illustrate that sometimes, over the course of 100 years,  things can be layered over the top of each other.

How do I estimate...

...how often local jurisdictions passed laws/ordinances that forced scenarios where two RR's had to consolidate into one line during the early 20th Century?  My "backstory" has such a situation for a few towns along a branch that the Erie RR had and the P&A Main, and the two RR's had to consolidate into one line sometime in around 1900.  Since it sounds like this was a more "modern" situation, how likely would this happen back then?  

Thanks.

Ken L.