I enjoy watching helper

I enjoy watching helper operations in real life.  I'm most familiar with helper operations on NS between Altoona and Pittsburgh.  What's interesting the variety of operations.  Sometimes they cut off at the summit and return to Altoona (cut off from westbound trains) or Johnstown (cut off from eastbound trains) and sometimes they go the whole way west to Pittsburgh or east to Altoona.  Helpers can be on the front or rear of the train.  One set is common, two for really heavy trains, and I've seen as many as six, though not sure all 6 were on-line.  Light engine moves to line up helpers is also interesting once you start to learn about the dance the dispatcher has to do in balancing power.

From a model perspective, do you have the ability to simulate all of this?  Is there enough manpower at your sessions?  Is there enough space for everybody?  Is the length of run up the hill long enough that it's worth your while or will the helper be cut off a few feet after it's put on? 

Helpers on a C&O model railroad

I have a friend that models the C&O that runs North out of Columbus Ohio.  About 1/3 of the main lines requires helpers for North bound coal trains. The helper is put on at a yard that is 25 feet (HO gauge layout) before the grade.  This allows the two engineers to get the speed set before the grade.  I believe the grade is about 3%, but it may be less.  This area is double tracked.  At the top of the grade is a "Y" where the helper, after cutting off, is turned.  The train continues on. The helper is directed to the other track and it returns to the yard.  The track is all visible.  Running the train requires two engineers and two throttles.

What you are thinking about has several considerations. (1) Is the length of run long enough to make it worth it?, (2) using helper on the front would present less of a problem as far as derailments are concerned from too fast or too slow speed of the helper, (3) Going through tunnels with a helper may be just asking for trouble especially with helper on the rear.(4) Does the helper back down the hill on the same track, could you turn the helper or have it return on a second track?(5) If the helper is on the front, there needs to be a track where it pulls off to allow the train to pass.  One other possible consideration, would it be possible to double the hill, that is take half of the train at a time and put it back together at the top.  This would require passing sidings and addition track work, but could be interesting from an operational viewpoint.

Helper operation is another way to make operation more interesting, which all adds to the fun.  It will keep the dispatcher on his toes as well.  

Bill

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helpers on the hill

  I like it better when there's a helper grade on both sides of a summit. That way the helpers can be left on to provide dynamic braking going down, then go back up the hill on a train in the other direction. I guess if one liked dispatching it might be more interesting to have a shorter helper run with added traffic getting the helpers back down to their pocket.. ...DaveB

Middle

I would build it at 2%.

If you decide you don't want helpers, then you can run without them.

Once you build it, you can try it with helpers and if the tunnels aren't a problem, then you can run helpers.  Nothing says you have to have a crippling grade to run helpers.  You just tell the trains they need helpers and they will use helpers.

Helpers...

A subject near and dear to my heart for ages.

When planning my current layout, I decided one of my "Givens" would be a helper grade. I wanted much of the operations centered around the need for helpers in order for heavy trains to surmount "The Mountain".

It turned out that the space limitations, in view of what I wanted in the layout itself, actually required a steep grade (2.9%) to pull it off. (I didn't want another helix sucking up track and hiding the trains, as was the case on my other HO layout I dismantled prior to a move in '98.) The resultant 55' of 2.9% made for a sure 'nuf "mountain" in regards to operation.

The layout has now been 100% functional for just over a year now, and I can tell you that the helper grade is rewarding me with all of the elements I desired. I'm slowly getting the rolling stock weighted to where coal trains require helpers, as well as some of the heavier drag freights. Some trains don't require helpers... if all goes well*.

* "If all goes well": Assuming the combination of cars fall within the tonnage capacity of the engines handling the train. Sometimes it's "close" and the train barely makes it. Sometimes its "easy peasy" and it pulls right up it. BUT, every now and then, a car or two may be one of the "heavy" ones, and the train that was supposed to make the grade stalls, then it's all bets are off and decisions will need to be made to fix the issue. Such a situation is exactly what I wanted. This is railroading in the mountains. In my past experience railroading mountains all this, and more, takes place. You lose an engine... the train is heavier than statically listed (a long cut of wet sand for example), it's Autumn, it's raining, and there are leafs on the rail, on and on. In the case of stalling, if a local is working nearby, either above or below the stalled train, the engine can be pressed into service and come to the aid of the stalled train. If no such help available, one has to "double" the grade. When railroading mountains, you have no guarantee you'll make the grades, ever.

Controlling:

Helpers are more fun in DCC with two engineers and two throttles. Rear helpers are not a big deal as long as the rear helper is shoving more than the head power is pulling. Helping from the front is zero issue. As an option (not a fun one, IMHO), one could MU the helping consist to the head end power, and one throttle will do the work.

Recap:

Try to make sure you want such a grade.

When I shared my proposed layout "Givens n' Druthers" to select online forums (this one too), I received a lot of "you don't want to do that" type of input. Of course, hearing/reading critical thinking is always best when it comes to making a layout decision that will be nigh impossible to reverse if it doesn't pan out, so such input (accompanied by sensible rationale for their thinking), is appreciated by this modeler and duly considered.

In the end, I decided to go for it, and it has been a very good decision in view of my penchant for mountain railroading.

Weigh your pros and cons. Try to distill if you really want a helper grade or not, then proceed accordingly!

Best of luck!

Andre

Looking at the diagram and

Looking at the diagram and your average train length, I just have a couple of questions that may help you consider options.

Is the main operational feature of your railroad the activity around the helper districts?  What other activities do the operators need to do during a session?  

Do the operators enjoy helper districts so much that they want two in a run?

Given the short distance between the two sides, maybe one long helper district would be more fun. Are the differences between going up and down the grades different enough to seem like two different activities?

Again, given the short distance between up and down grades, would the prototype go through the trouble of dropping, then later adding a helper?  It looks like only about 4-5 train lengths or so.  I know, selective compression and all of that, but what do your operators think.

I don't know the answer to any of these questions, but it might give you something to think about.

Oh, one other thing, with the grade in a tunnel, don't even think of using live loads! That's just asking for trouble. 

gs 

Thank you *all* for the

Thank you *all* for the terrifically helpful comments and questions! Andre and Lars, I love the vivid stories of your experiences with helpers! They really bring the experience to life - thank you!

It sounds like head-end helpers are an angle I should surely consider. For head-end helpers in a DCC model railroad context, would folks generally have two operators independently operate the helper and main locomotive sets, or MU the consist together? MUing the consist seems like a bit of a pain, but I wonder if two operators at different speeds might result in locomotive damage (OR, operators calling out speeds to each other would actually be a lot of fun).

If head-end helpers are a good way to go, then sticking with 2% and just declaring "helpers required" (as Dave Husman suggested) when desired might provide flexibility while achieve a good many of the objectives: the dispatcher would still need to achieve power balance across both sides of the hill, and maybe send locomotives on light runs over the hill, while some trains would be free to run without helpers. Rear-helpers might be a struggle in this 2% context ... but, since there are already 2% sections in the tunnels,  presumably if rear-end helpers don't work on 2%, then I shouldn't be trying it at all.

I would ask the operators ... but the operators are still to be found! I am actually physically away from my layout for much of the year due to a move (might be time to consider TOMA...), so I haven't developed the operator roster yet. But, that's certainly a hope for the future.

gs, I think the helper districts is 1/3-1/2 of the railroad's fun : other than that, some of the standard activities abound such as yard classification, locals, and special trains like passengers. I don't anticipate road freights having a lot of work to do enroute. You're right about one long helper grade, and if I was building from scratch, I probably would go that route, but I'm a little constrained by what's already built . The existing helper grade on one side of the hill is about 30 feet long, and the flat summit area is also about 30 feet. The new "other side of the hill" helper grade would be approximately 70 feet long, with 30 feet of that in tunnels.

My thought was that if the second helper hill was included, trains would only use helpers in one direction, and trains from either side would drop their helpers at Summit (or ride down the hill with them), but the dispatcher would need to coordinate power and crews so that they are available at either end when necessary. Almost seems like the railroad would need two full-time helper crews (one for each side, on average) ... and many of you make a good point about having enough crew members and realistically having enough space for them to mill about.

How do people feel about rear-end helpers being the norm coming up one side of the hill, and head-end helpers being the norm when coming up the other side of the hill? With the assumption that helpers can get dropped at the top. Would that be unrealistic?

Thank you everyone again for your incredibly helpful insights!

gs, thanks for the good point about live loads. I can imagine live loads derailing in those long tunnels ... clean-up nightmare, coal pebbles rolling down the helix and out the bottom like mini-marbles 

Head vs rear

Typically head end helpers are used on passenger trains where speed is more important than pulling power (plus passengers get really irritated when you telescope the cars).   Head end helpers aren’t used that much in freight service because they don’t “help”.  Adding head end “helpers” just means you rip the drawbar out of cars and break knuckles.

Of course on a model railroad that isn’t a concern, but on a real railroad that’s why helpers are on the rear.

Head End Help

One area that head end help was common would be Horseshoe Curve. 

Especially during Conrail and early NS days helper power on TOFC/COFC, and later stack trains was almost always a set of helpers on the head end only. 

Everything else was rear only, or on really heavy trains head and rear. 

Today with AC, DPU etc etc the entire helper district is changing by the day. 

I'll second Bessemer Bob,

I'll second Bessemer Bob, COFC/TOFC is where I mostly saw them on the front.  But, those are lighter trains that are typically needing extra power to scoot up the hill a bit quicker than the drag freights.

Also, there are lot of light engine moves.  Sometimes a helper will go the whole way from Altoona to Pittsburgh just to line up for a particular train.  The biggest thing I've learned is a lot of it is highly coordinated, too.  It's not a seat of the pants type thing.  Things seemed to be lined up well in advance for certain trains and there's a bit of a rhythm to the day.

Cresson

Lars, 

It once was pretty impressive. when I started in MGT one of my stops was Cresson. The helper team was a well oiled machine. Sadly its been reduced, and the need has been slowly fading. I am starting to feel old, even had a helper job based out of the Amtrak station in Pittsburgh. One of the hardest jobs to get, top seniority job for sure. I remember right after NS got CR they wanted to pull the 3rd track off the mountain. Since they knew better then the yanks running on the curve! 

Funny thing is they have been switching over to the SD70ACu for helpers to reduce total number of locomotives in the pool. The problem was the math used to make that decision was based on the pre PSR train sizes. Turns out with the bigger trains the single SD70ACu didnt have enough muscle. So most helper sets are now two ACu sets.... Railroads on paper,  best way to run them  

But back to the OP! 

Yes it would be greatly more prototypical to have your helpers on the rear. Maybe if you have a really heavy train and want to mix things up try a double set and cut one in somewhere 2/3 of the way back on the train. You really could have fun with helpers. 

Thanks guys!

Thanks guys! All of this is super interesting! 

Older Tofc/Cofc helper issues

Back in the 1960's-1970's on the trailer on flatcar Tofc or the Container on flatcar Cofc the helper's had to be very careful with these 86' & 89' cars.

As BN dumped many on the ground when the headend power would slip or stall and the rear end helper's didn't.

Or the other way around, when the helper's would slip or stall causing a string lining effect.

Lots and lots of variables when using helper's.

Helpers Cont...

...

The times that I've helped by grabbing on to the head end was typically because my job was the closest to the disabled train. When the need for a helper was known ahead of time, I was typically on the rear. (Head down the grade get in the clear and in position to tack on to the rear once the train had passed by. (Yes, years ago, I've tacked-on to the rear while on the fly. When on the head end, I've also cut away on the fly and out run the still-pulling train to a place where I could hole-up/etc. These moves, and more are now verboten on the railroads.)

Sometimes, I would hook on the head end, and we'd MU the consists and I'd handle them all. It just depended on circumstances and the crews involved. Some of the crews were quite experienced and were fine with cutting off on the fly/etc, others were newer and more reserved, and I understood that and respected it.

Yes, some verbal communication (during the radio era) was typical. Whistle signals pre-radio. When shoving on the rear, it would often it would go something like this:

"Okay Steel Trap, we're hooked on and Germ's (Conductor) up here with me."

"Alrighty... let's get 'em movin'."

At that I would key the radio and say something like...

"Bunchin' 'em up!"

...and typically notch out and start gathering a bit of slack.

To which the head end would key up and respond with something like...

"Pullin'."

From there it was typically seat of the pants until we started to crest the grade. Once I new for sure they could handle it by themselves, and we were set up to cut off on the fly, we would do so... and let the head end know with something like...

"You're on yer own now." Typically the response comes from the head end to the effect of...

"Thanks fer the shove!"

(Note: When running the head end power, and the rear cuts away on the fly, you "feel" it your seat as the train's weight has increased along with a bit of slack from the rear cars stretching a bit.)

Bear in mind that none of the above is permitted by rule now. (Or at least that's my understanding.) However, the above is what I cut my railroading teeth on, and was accepted practice up until the last few years of my railroading.

If you want to hear it first hand. Try this on for size...

(FYI: In the above video, "Dagwood" [his nickname] is the head end Hogger and "Squirrel" is the Hoghead on the helper. Almost everybody has a nickname on the railroad, more so "back then".)

Now, if the above video got your juices going, then it's likely you will enjoy a layout that can accommodate helpers.

Andre

@ Andre

Andre, 

Have enjoyed watching that classic video many times over!

at least you get a choice. i

at least you get a choice. i must run helpers up my helix. ( not finished yet) but will be 80% + unseen. 27 in rad. at least not quite as long as yours. but i say go with the easer grade. you can always add in helpers, even if not needed.