The Turnpike

Since the only "friendly" connections at either end were already part of the Alphabet Route, the USRA found it to be superfluous so it got abandoned, just like the Colorado Midland.  The Turnpike got built on the right of way.

Problem solved.

Scott Chatfield

Presumably you would also

Presumably you would also have traffic that is destined for industries on line, not just traffic that originates online.

Tidewater coal did indeed originate further south. However, there was also coal that moved north. C&O eventually moved almost as much coal to the docks at Toledo as it moved to Tidewater. In fact, in 1910, C&O acquired the Hocking Valley Railway expressly to get its own line from Columbus to Toledo; the road was fully merged into C&O in 1930. N&W also did a thriving business moving West Virginia coal to Sandusky.

Given P&A's proximity to the lake at Erie, it seems plausible to me that it could have developed traffic similar to that of the C&O/Hocking Valley. I don't see why you say "however most coal would go..." To me it seems that P&A's biggest business would have been northbound coal originating in PA and going to Pittsburgh, Erie and Buffalo. P&A would have to find a way to get trackage rights or some other access to a water terminal. Maybe the story is that P&A got superior trackage rights (in this case meaning operationally superior to the Terminal RR) for the last 10 miles into Erie from NYC while under USRA administration, and subsequently NYC acquired P&A in a move analogous to the C&O/Hocking Valley. Once in the NYC family, eastbound traffic could be routed over the usual NYC routes or over P&A as conditions or business deemed appropriate.

It is worth noting that USRA technically leased all of the railroads it controlled, and on roughly equal basis. There's no need to have P&A leased to the NYC, because USRA would have leased P&A just like it leased NYC and 440 other railroads. In the aftermath, the operations teams would have been required to work together in the national network. Under USRA administration, traffic was routed as efficiently as possible without regard to previous allegiances, so new traffic flows were definitely possible. With the return of the railroads to private hands in 1920, perhaps the NYC and P&A had grown accustomed to working together and had worked out a joint competitive advantage against the PRR and Erie?

To get coal going east, a possibility would be an alliance with the Western Maryland, if you can get your loads to either Connellsville or Shippensburg. On the WM, the coal would be destined for Baltimore. WM had little access of its own to the PA coal fields, so it seems likely to have welcomed a way to compete with the B&O for that business. Presumably P&A would have preferred to interchange with the WM at Shippensburg since that would mean a much longer haul on the P&A. The connection with the WM would also enable traffic coming from Baltimore and the south to Pittsburgh and and even Buffalo. NYC was locked out of eastern PA by the PRR "fortress" so P&A + WM would have been a way for NYC to develop much more business in western PA and some in eastern PA to which it otherwise had little access.

Friendly connections

The RDG interchanged with the NYC at Williamsport.  Its plausible that the P&A might have a connection to the RDG at Harrisburg and access Philadelphia/Wilmington/Delaware Valley via the RDG.  The LV was allied with the PRR so that's not likely.

Interchange to NYC

What traffic did the PRR interchange to the NYC west of Erie?  Any of that traffic would be fodder to say that the instead of the PRR handling it to Cleveland or Toledo, the P&A handled it to Erie and gave it to the NYC.  

Auto parts from the Philadelphia, Bethlehem, Reading area going to Michigan would be fair game.

Reading being part of The Alphabet Route...

OK.  I have read in several places (online and in books) that the Reading and NYC worked together.  In fact one of the reasons the South Penn was going to Harrisburg, IIRC, was to reach the Reading.  Now if that is so, and it had a "closer" relationship compared to more competing railroads (i.e. the NYC vs PRR) why would it turn around and be part of a group that was more or less attempting to compete with it?  

Are there plausible reasons why the Alphabet Route not to have happened?  Would these smaller railroads have still survived as they did without this closely worked out network.  

How implausible would it be for the B&O to acquire the WM much sooner than it did?  That would more or less end a key link in the route.  

If I wasn't so determined to have the NYCS own the P&A (I love the NYCS equipment and paint scheme, but want too many freelanced towns and traffic to model an actual part of it) I could have the P&A part of the Alphabet Route as it would provide a more direct link from the P&WV connection in Pittsburgh to the Reading in Harrisburg.  But the P&A would no longer be part of that coalition once the NYCS acquired the P&A.

I just don't know how plausible this would be.  As it is I'm changing history significantly by not having the BR&P becoming a part of the B&O (this way more B&O traffic can be interchanged with the P&A to reach Buffalo and Rochester via the NYCS).  At least that is my current thoughts.  They may change as if I make too many changes the plausibility of such things goes totally out the window.  

Thanks for indulging me in these what-if scenarios.  

Ken L

A direct connection with the

A direct connection with the Reading at Harrisburg would certainly be a blow to the P&WV-WM-RDG routing as it would be a faster, cheaper routing.

From Pittsburgh going east you would have access to the coal branches around Mt Pleasant, a connection to the B&O's line from Rockwood to Johnstown, Huntingdon and Broad Top Mountain around Everett, the Tuscarora Valley and the Susquehanna River and Western in Northern Franklin Co.

However, I think it would also be interesting to consider a routing from Erie diagonal to Harrisburg that would connect NYC's Clearfield area coal branches to Erie and then proceed to Harrisburg via the Reading routing from Williamsport.

Plausible

Of course not.  But that's because history worked out the way it did.

Remember at the time the original South Penn project fell through the P&R was the largest corporation in the US  in book value and controlled railroads from Philadelphia to Boston and all the way to Buffalo NY.  When all the South Penn, West Shore deals were done it stymied some of the P&R's plans and the overextended empire couldn't complete their system and fell apart.

You can't expect history to remain the same because you are changing history and inserting a route that doesn't exist in history in the mix.  If you change history, it will be different.  If you don't change history and all the traffic goes on historical routes then there will be ZERO traffic for your route because there was ZERO traffic on your route in history.  So you have to fundamentally change history to force your railroad into existence.  Welcome to freelancing.

Exist?

Speaking of existing, do you actually have a layout, have you actually built any of your layout?  It seems like we have had these exact same discussions decades ago on the LDSIG or OPSIG Yahoo Groups.  I know you have been designing things for 10-20 years.

Have you actually built anything or is it all still on paper?

Routes

It would be cheaper for the railroads but not necessarily for the customer.  Tariff rates were by origin-destination pairs, not by route.  The rate for a 100 lb bag of flour between a mill in  Philadelphia and bakery in  Chicago was the same regardless of route.

One railroad being able to outbid the another railroad on the same OD pairs wouldn't happen until the Staggers era.

Yes, the benchwork for an interim P&A has been built.

The Interim P&A Benchwork was completed in July of 20116. Most of the subroadbed was installed, and about 15% of the mainline track was installed.  Unfortunately I had two things that have caused things to stop until recently.  First, I have been expanding my traveling hobby shop, and all my efforts with construction have been mostly focused on getting all the custom tables/displays done.  I just about had all of that done when I developed a few serous health complications from my diabetes.  as of June of this year they seem to be finally resolved, but i'm dealing with the consequences of those complications, so i'm not out of the woods yet, but at least things are improving vs getting worse.  The plans for expanding the house were moving forward until this COVID-19 event happened which has delayed certain things, namely the redesign and relocation of the septic system to allow for the expansion.  This was the summer we were going to break ground, so most likely I will have to wait until 2021 to break ground.  Over the past 10 years I have been buying building materials in anticipation of the expansion. 

The Interim P&A taught me some important lessons as for what will and will not work.  Some new ideas I had about benchwork design I have had to tweak so hopefully with that lesson learned, will make the Final P&A Layout even better.  The delays have been a good thing because had I built this layout earlier, the aisles would have been narrower than they will be now.  Though I am better now, there was a time when I needed a motorized scooter to get around.  Given my health could become worse in the future, inhibiting my ability to walk long distances, having the the aisles wider than usual to allow for using it will be a good idea.  

Ken L

Anthracite Coal from the East????

Here's perhaps a more plausible "twist" in history (dating back millions of years ago ;-> ).

An additional very large Anthracite Coal Seam is created northeast of Harrisburg, PA that the LV and other RR's i the area did not have access too.  This is because another independent smaller RR (name tbd) had access to this massive coal field.  Shortly after the P&A acquires the South Penn ROW and finishes the track to begin operations on the new line, the P&A acquires this RR.  The amount of coal coming out of this new field to head west to Pittsburgh and north to Erie, PA justifies, in part, the new line.  

Ken L. 

New coal field?

Here's the concern with that.

Here's a map of the RDG.  The green box is the area NE of Harrisburg where you found that "new" coal field.  Note it is right smack dab in the middle of the existing coal fields and surrounded by RDG branches serving the area.

Also note the red dot.  That is Newberry Jct., the connection between the NYC and the RDG.  Why would the NYC buy a entire railroad to haul coal SOUTH out of the coal fields, then haul it NORTH to the lakes, when it already has an interchange on the NORTH side?

On the other hand, there is a direct shot from Harrisburg to Reading to Philadelphia and Wilmington.  It is waaaaaay more likely that access to Philadelphia and the Delaware River is more important than getting a longer route to coal fields the NYC is already within 50 miles of.  It is more likely that the NYC/P&A is going to haul coal TO Harrisburg, eastward, than to haul coal Westward.  Harrisburg was the gateway through which B&O and WM coal went to destinations on the Delaware Basin, Reading and Northern New Jersey.  A NYC/P&A connection would enter that market.  Loaded soft coal trains east, empty soft coal trains west.

What is the purpose for more coal?

Since the South Penn could access coal from Westmoreland, Somerset and Huntingdon Counties, why the need to worry about other sources of coal traffic?

Edit:  I would also agree with dave1905 on this one.  You also have to get from Harrisburg to the coal fields of which there aren't many points of entry that aren't already locked up.

Reading Interchange

Since dave1905 also put the Reading map up there, you an see that a (possibly the most) Plausible South Penn - RDG interchange would be Shippensburg.

Harrisburg

Harrisburg would be a better connection.  Shippensburg would mean building off the existing right of way to a branch.  Since he is acquiring an existing railroad, that would have already gone to Harrisburg, building an interchange to the middle of nowwhere is worse than connecting directly to a main trunk line at a major junction point.

  "And I have run into a

Maybe just build the layout then worry about what to run on the branch after it's built. Could be many years down the road before it becomes an actual  physical problem.  I've stopped worrying about the small stuff on my layout and just try to do something appealing or interesting every day. Even one hour can be put to productive use. This approach lets me work on many different facets of the hobby and keeps me from long boring slogs at one aspect of the total process.....DaveB

The Pennsylvania railroad had a serious financial advantage.

By connecting NYC, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh and Chicago (and foiling the Maryland legislative attempts to block them out of Baltimore and DC quickly) they had access to and could provide customers with single line access to the major industrial centers of the east coast. 
 

You guys are talking about coal but everything that was used industrially and coal for residential heat would go along a line from Pittsburgh to Harrisburg. Possibly upsetting the dominant position of the Pennsylvania. 
 

This is why I made my Proto based railroad a private short line. I have the possibility of changing some more history. A railroad that bridged much of the gap between the B&O and the Reading would have probably changed the outcome of the Pennsylvania/ B&O fight for control of the PB&W. The Pennsylvania had a secret stock interest in the company before the B&O president started buying up the stock and found enough stock to gain more than 50%  ownership of the PB&W. B&O’s president Garret lost his job after the B&O declared bankruptcy and came under Pennsylvania control.

My railroad could have been half of the link in that possibly would have prevented the consequences of that situation but that raises the question of what the B&O would have looked like if Mr Garret had stayed in control. Many of the improvements the B&O made from 1890 to 1900 are credited to Pennsylvania control and influence (The president and board members installed by them). If the B&O had stayed independent they could have bought the 3’ gauge Maryland Central, bridged the Susquehanna river and made a connection with my railroad. Then my railroad would be part of their main route east of Baltimore. How much traffic would they have? This route became  the southern half of the Ma&Pa railroad that was known for low speeds and hairpin turns. How would that bottleneck be solved? My end of the railroad would have logistical problems with double or triple tracking the line through Lancaster city, the row was an alleyway about 20’ wide. 
 

Once you change too much history you go from plausible to improbable and slide into total fiction. Like the hypothetical grandfather effect in time travel. Every change from reality brings you one step closer to that scenario were it’s all fiction.  
 

This does only matter if you care about staying plausible though.
 

I made 2 key changes to historical accuracy, the railroad was bought by a wealthy investor and it was built farther south to reach the new B&O mainline. The rest is still historically accurate, I copy real customers,  and steal prototype traffic from the route that ended up being used ( the  W&N,  Dave Husmans prototype). The area I model is compressed prototype so I that is as real as I could make it if I a were 100% Prototype modeler, the only modeled difference is that I have through trains that ran on the W&N instead of through Lancaster and I changed the name of the railroad. 
 

You could go the other way and simply say the NYC interchanges with the Reading at Harrisburg and not justify how that happened. Your railroad is really the NYC and could be a paper railroad. You could have run through trains between the Reading and NYC by your time period. The Reading was one of the few eastern railroads that never even tried to reach Chicago and another connection west would have been welcomed. 

Harrisburg Thu, 2020-07-02

I don't think Shippensburg would be out of the realm of possibility.  The RDG and WM interchanged at Ship. It's also a 9 mi straight shot from Tuscarora Tunnel to Ship vs 40 to Harrisburg.  In those times, 9 mi of new alignment was nothing.

If the interchange was at Harrisburg I guess it would take place at Rutherford, with the South Penn entering Rutherford on RDG tracks.  The piers for the South Penn are adjacent to the RDG bridge.  I forget who preceded who in Harrisburg and don't have the time at the moment to re-read "The Railroad That Never Was."  I guess alot of this fiction would rely on potential on-line business in Carlisle and Harrisburg.

As a final note, it's a misnomer that the PA Turnpike exactly follows the South Penn.  There are many points where the routes diverged and in some cases the South Penn tunnels were not the ones used by the PA Turnpike.

Superfluous track

It wouldn't make any economical sense.

The concept is that the South Penn was built and the P&A acquired it.  So that means the line to Harrisburg already exists.  That means the P&A crews already go to Harrisburg.

If they go to Shippensburg then the P&A has to build and maintain a connection that will short their line haul to interchange cars further away  from the previous interchange.  The RDG will have to use an additional crew to get the cars from Shippensburg to Harrisburg increasing their cost.  They would then haul the cars to the spot where they used to interchange.  Everybody loses.

There is no value added in any prototypically based scenario involving interchanging at Shippensburg.

Point of clarification...

In my version of history, the South Penn is not completed, but much of the right of way was done before the agreement between the PRR and NYC arranged by Morgan was arranged.

Dave raises a valid point, once I change one part of history no matter how insignificant, it causes a series of dominos to fall. It's like asking, what if during WWII, the Battle of the Coral Sea never happens and at the Battle of Midway there are 6 heavy and one light Japanese Carrier vs the three Yorktown Class and the USS Lexington, would the US still have won?  Even though the US had the element of surprise, Japan's number might have won the day.  No one (in this universe at least) will ever know! So my concerns about the Alphabet route really are moot because i'm already changing things.  Though it wouldn't hurt finding an alternative for the Reading piece of the Route so that concept is still viable, for without it, those smaller railroads might not have made it.

Although the PRR is the dominate carrier in the region, the face the P&A denies the PRR one of it's major N-S trunks along the Allegheny River back in the late 19th Century would mean that it is a significant competitor for the PRR for local and some of the bridge traffic.  

One thing that is going to (hopefully) help me with figuring out where traffic will come from and end up is I just ordered an atlas with historic RR maps that will show me where all the lines in and outside of the area went in the 1950s.  Having a better understanding where possible traffic from the south and the west.  

Thanks all for the continued feedback and ideas.  

Ken L. 

You have to decide what line is built

Then figure out how that affects the existing railroads (mostly PRR , but also Reading/ CNJ on the eastern end).

The problem I found is that even though there is extensive documentation out there on the railroads, industries and the economy, that is a snapshot in time, while life is an evolving situation. 
 

Timing and location was everything. When many of the northeastern railroads were built most of the US industries were located here. California was the other major population center at that time. As time went on a growing percentage of the population and economy spread south and west. The amount of industries here decreased in both number and importance. Many natural resources were depleted. The Great Depression destroyed many medium sized businesses and left only the strongest in its wake. The economy here continued to grow as international corporations became bigger and stronger. 
 

Boiling that down to railroads and industries. In the Lancaster/ Harrisburg area the industrial growth slowed from 1900 to 1920. The local economy leveled off. This was the peak for railroads here. One reason I model 1925. 
 

By your era in the 1950’s the railroad customers were much fewer in number. The railroads locally were sustained by several international corporations that grew exponentially after WW2. Coal traffic was dropping as other sources of heat became viable. 

Not an additional problem, but would like some more thoughts on.

... what about Northwest-Southeast traffic????  That is cars being interchanged from the NYC at the Yard at "South Erie" PA to the interchange with the Reading in Harrisburg.  How much "through traffic" would there be?  Perhaps some because the NYC Agents in Buffalo know how to do an excellent salesman job, and because of the water level route to get from Buffalo to Erie and the route from Franklin, PA to the WYE near Kittanning, and from that WYE along the Kissmetis river to the existing South Penn Right of Way doesn't have steep grades makes up time for the additional distance than a car would have to travel from Buffalo to Harrisburg via the PRR, but I wouldn't think it to be that much.  So would there be enough to justify a Through Freight Train (that obviously picks up and drops off "SHORT" Cars) from Harrisburg to South Erie? I would hope the answer would be yes, but from spending time on thinking about this lately, I'm coming to realize this could be called "A Tale of Two Railroads in One" more or less.  That is there is E-W Traffic, and N-S Traffic, and they may have one point where they meet, they really are two different lines.  The P&A is a proto-freelanced railroad, so yes it is a freelanced, so I can do whatever I want, however I want to use prototype benchmarks as much as possible.  Which means I want the TRAFFIC that would have traversed the P&A had it actually existed in our history to justify the layout instead of creating a layout and attempting to justify it with made up traffic.  This way if I am unable to justify some portion of the traffic, I am not designing/building something that needs to be redone.  

I was doing research of the area east of Pittsburgh along the ex-South Penn Right-Of-Way and I came across some articles about a few new deep shaft Coal Mines being opened up in that area.  Unless they were discovered with new technology and/or there was a land-lock on the coal seams by other railroads, I might add to history by having that fictitious RR that was going to mine for Anthracite Coal, mine for Bituminous Coal instead.  This coal could in part be "Lake Coal", as well as Coal heading to Pittsburgh and Buffalo (actually Lackawanna, NY). The same investors that took an opportunity to buy the Allegheny Valley Rwy to create the P&A might have found an opportunity to buy out this small railroad to gain access to the Coal, and that is why it sought to purchase the ex-South Penn Right-of-Way.  The Historic RR Atlas I mentioned in a previous post might help me with creating a more plausible backstory by finding a RR from the late 19th Century that becomes defunct and bought out by one of the other RR's in the area, so I might not need to create one out of thin air in the end.  So there could be coal trains that originate (on the layout) in staging and heading North at the Junction at the WYE.  And there would be Passenger Trains - one or two actual Passenger and Mail/Express Trains to run from Buffalo to Harrisburg (with some cars heading to Philadelphia perhaps on the Reading?)

Thanks everyone.

Ken L. 

I recall

reading in Allen McClelland''s V&O series about how he developed the V&O's route through the Appalachians.

Allen said something along the lines that he wanted the V&O to originate at a point short of Tidewater and extend into the Ohio region almost, but not quite, reaching the Great Lakes. Once that was basic theme was determined his "... confidence in my locating engineer was such that he'd find a way to get the railroad through the mountains" - or words to that effect. 

I also recall reading somewhere, from someone way more worried about this stuff than Allen was, that the V&O didn't actually pass through a major West Virginia coal field. I have no idea if it supposedly did or didn't, and don't care. But can you imagine the V&O without endless strings of black hoppers working their way around the manifest traffic? 

Sometimes proto-freelancers can get waaayyy to focused on the "proto" in "proto-freelancing" - which is, when all is said and done fiction - historical fiction perhaps, but fiction nonetheless. 

There's lots of things "wrong" with my Southern New England, but I like it, like the concept, and find it fun, so I do it. I don't worry about explaining myself to anyone.

I've always felt more in tune with Bob Hayden's concept of proto-freelancing much more so than the "minutia-based" approach to proto freelancing that seems to dominate. Perhaps if such minutia really bothers a modeler, then perhaps they should look at simply modeling the prototype, and skip the freelancing bit. 

Marty

Hi Marty!

I hope you are well.  You bring up a very valid point.  Rule #1 always applies.  I guess, I just remember getting "stung" by a few members of the LDSIG, who became (and those who are still around are still) friends of mine.  When I first came up with the idea of the Pennsylvania & Allegheny  it definitely was more freelanced than proto.  I hadn't nailed down an exact route, didn't create a backstory how it was created, and most certainly did not worry about where would the freight traffic from.  And though they were only giving me a hard time (in a bantering sort of way not a harsh criticism) after I asked what they thought of the concept of the railroad and was it plausible at all, they gave me what seemed like 100+ reasons why the P&A could never have existed ever.  So sine 1994 (it was the NMRA Convention at Portland, OR) I have been working on the Backstory and now I'm working on the final details and just when I think I have enough to go on, something new pops up. 

Now I am NOT suffering from (You Know Who) Syndrome.  (for those who don't know who, it doesn't matter, it's an inside joke for those that do know) I was well underway constructing the Interim P&A, the benchwork was done, the subroadbed installed, and track laying had begun.  After the NMRA Convention in 2016 in Indianapolis, I became very ill, shortly after that, to increase my hobby income I expanded my traveling hobby shop which involved building custom table/display racks (and I'm still working on them to decrease the amount of time needed to set up and take down during shows), and in the middle of this, my diabetes decided to instigate some new issues that I am happy to report no longer have gotten worse, but it's going to take 6-9 months to still recover where I am back to a condition where I can be very active again! This works out because, 2020 was the year where the house was going to be expanded, but because of COVID-19 those plans have been put on hold for a year because to get the needed projects around the house done before the building is expanded (like redoing the septic system) can't be done in my county yet as the needed inspectors are not available any time soon for this.  So working on the Interim P&A is rather pointless at this juncture, so I'm working on a detailed plan (versus just a generic bechwork footprint/location of town/basic mainline plan to a town by town very detailed plan).  The design of the yards will be based on from where traffic is coming from and going, what cars are being interchanged and from where, in addition to the business that are being modeled on the layout.  

Ken L.