How long is a string?

If you can answer that question you will know how long a division is.

There is no set length, only a set width.

Definition of a division

Most railroads define a "division" as the portion of the railroad under the direction of a superintendent.  A division that is a terminal might be 30 miles long, a division that has a lot of branch lines could have over 1000 miles in it.

The UP has had as many as 36 division and as few as 12 divisions during my tenure, same railroad, same total mileage  (technically the mileage when we had 36 divisions was pre-SP merger and I think they are down to 12 "divisions" now including the SP and SSW).

Div-Subdiv-crew district

I think part of the confusion is a terminology problem.

A division is administrative area under the direction of a superintendent.  It can contain multiple crew districts, multiple subdivisions.  A division can also be called a service unit or a district.

A subdivision is a portion of a division, it can be the same as a crew district, it can be shorter than a crew district or it can be longer than a crew district.  Generally a subdivision belongs to on division, but one sub can span multiple divisions.   A subdivision can also be called a secondary, branch or district.

A crew district is the territory over which a crew can operate by labor agreement.  Some crew districts cover multiple subdivisions, some crew districts cover only part of a subdivision.   A crew district can span multiple divisions.  Crew district can be combined and those are often called "interdivisional runs".

Divisions and subdivisions can be changed with the stroke of a pen by issuing a general order or new timetable.  Crew districts can only be changed through the collective bargaining agreement.

one example

In my era on the C&O, the Hinton division ran from Handley WV to Clifton Forge VA, split into two subdivisions, the New River and the Allegheny. The latter obviously included the eastbound ruling Allegheny grade. Operationally, trains from the west changed crews and power at Hinton, right in the middle of the division. The Allegheny Sub is about 85 miles, and in steam days that definitely included pusher service on Allegheny and stopping at the top to set retainers. Operational practice was to cut the pusher in ahead of the cabin (caboose), so cutting the pusher out required a stop. This wasn't so bad because the retainers had to be set for the descent. Allegheny is not as steep as many people think it is: it's only 0.57%, although as noted it was the ruling grade against the loads, and at 10+ miles in length, it was the operational headache of the railroad as a whole. I had never thought about when they'd take water, but likely it was at Ronceverte 60 miles into the run, and the top at Allegheny, when the trains had to stop anyway. Big steam like that consumed as much as 20,000 gallons per hour, and 10 miles uphill at 15mph is right about the capacity of that big tender (25,000 gal). There was conspicuously no coaling dock at Allegheny, so my educated guess is that the 25 tons in the tender of a 2-6-6-6 was enough to get all the way across the Allegheny Sub.

In contrast, the next division to the east ran to Gladstone VA, 160 miles. On this railroad, the traffic was dominated by loads going east and empties going west. On the Clifton Forge division, the coal loads went down the James River Sub on an easy, mostly downhill water-level grade. The same train that had taken two 2-6-6-6's to get over Allegheny took only a single 2-8-2 or 2-8-4 to get down to Gladstone. It is my understanding that crew and power changed at Gladstone. The K3 2-8-2 produced far less than half the power of the 2-6-6-6's, and thus consumed a lot less water in the process. Since the K3 tenders were not a lot smaller than the 2-6-6-6's (21,000 gallons vs 25,000), I guess it is conceivable that the whole 160 mile downhill run could be done with just one water stop. Unlike its neighbors, the Clifton Forge division was pretty much equivalent administratively and operationally.

The next division going east was the Richmond division, which administratively stretched from Gladstone obviously through Richmond all the way to the boundaries of the Newport News terminal, almost 200 miles. However, operationally trains would stop in Richmond and change crews and power, only about 120 miles. Leaving Richmond there was a short but steep pusher grade against the loads. The pushers were needed for only about a mile and a half, and "anything went" as a pusher here, including in at least one instance, a pair of 0-8-0's! This grade - which at 0.63% was actually steeper than Allegheny - got the trains out of the Richmond "bottoms" and onto the peninsula, so no retainers were necessary; the pushers cut off on the fly and likely for this reason, the pushers ran behind the cabins. Trains operated about 75 miles to Newport News, even though the Richmond division formally ended about 30 miles west of the piers, more or less in the middle of that run. The Richmond division operating boundaries were very different than its administrative domain.

The Newport News division consisted of the trackage around the city and its coal piers, about 40 miles by the mile markers and mostly as flat as a pancake. Operationally, though, it was pretty much just a switching district with two huge yards, the piers and a passenger station.

Railroad divisions could and

Railroad divisions could and can traverse many states or regions, or only part of just one. Depends on the railroad. And their boundaries did and do change.

Why don't you just purchase some old timetables from the NYC, N&E, Southern, C&O, WM, VGN, and others, and derive a suitable answer from that. There is no hard and fast answer. 

Timetables don't give me all the info I need...

In designing this proto-freelanced P&A, I can rely on the PRR to give me info from Franklin, PA to Pittsburgh, PA, and from Pittsburgh, PA along the Conemaugh Division and since it's along the river, it is "relatively" flat as long as I follow the River itself.  I will have to refer to USGS maps if I want to deviate in certain places, but as long as I keep things where helpers are not needed (i.e. grades of ~1% or less) I can keep the Crew District around 100 miles.  Most likely the Western Division will be around 120 miles long.  If I have too, I will dig into labor history research to see what unions would have expected in return (would premium pay be the only option, or other considerations be negotiated since it is above the 100 mile nominal run for RR's - though I am finding several RR's had Crew Districts that seem to fall between 100-125 miles long, so it was not uncommon.  Though this is digging so far into the minutiae and the return of value in such research I'm not sure.  I'm not interested in Labor History, but it cannot be totally ignored as I don't want to set up something that is so extraordinary that it screams "MODEL RAILROAD".  For instance, having a Crew District of over 300 miles.  To say one was going from Erie,PA, heading south to Pittsburgh then east to Harrisburg, all in one run, would to me scream "Model Railroad".  Keeping Crew districts a typical length is important.  

If anyone else has information they can post here that provides examples of length of "Crew Districts" (or whatever the particular RR called them, a section designated by Union Contract where crews ran from Point A to Point B, whether they were called Crew Districts, Sub-Divisions, Divisions, etc) that has/had portions in that "Crew District" the need for helper engine to be added or cut off at one point in between.  In other words, Crew gets on train at Point A, no Helpers, reaches Point B where Helper Engine added in (sometimes needing to be added in between freight cars and caboose), train then goes from Point B reaches Summit at Point C, proceeds downgrade to Point D (when Steam Locomotives were used Helper Engines would be cut off/out at Point C, but now with Diesels having Dynamic Brakes the Helpers continue on to Point D), the end of the "Crew District" where train crew gets off, and Helper Engine is cut off.  And the reverse, Crew gets on at Point D, with Helper Engine already in train, proceeds to Summit at Point C, continues on to Point B, where engines are cut off/out and train proceeds to end of "Crew District" at Point A.  I would like to determine could such a "Crew District" be  at 102 miles, instead of the shorter 77.  With the distance between Franklin, PA to Pittsburgh, PA being far longer than I measured it to be (123+ miles instead of 80 some miles, I need to add to the length of the Northern Division.  Assessing whether that is plausible is what I need help with.

Thanks.

Ken L. 

 

Not a big deal

I don't know a single crew district that was "100 miles".  That's not how far they could operate, that was just the basis of pay.  A crew district is how far it was between cities or locations where they could change crews.  It could be 75 miles or it could be 175 miles.  On the east coast the crew districts were shorter because of the mountains and there were more cities closer together.

If they go over 100 miles or 8 hours, its not a big deal, they get a pro rata mileage and or time.  Its covered in every labor agreement.   Its more or less a nationally set formula.  Don't know how much its gonna help a model railroad to know what the rate of pay is.  They go further or take longer, they get more pay.  Its not like the railroad isn't going to run the train to the next crew change to save money.

By the way Omaha to N Platte, NE was 284 miles.

Helper districts don't necessarily have to conform to crew districts.  Helpers don't need to start or end at a thru freight crew change.  It only takes 30 minutes or so to cut in or cut out helpers, so that could be done in the middle of crew district.

The problem with using diesels on the down grade is that you need them on the rear going uphill and you need them on the point going downhill.  If you are going to do that, then at the top of the hill you will have to stop and rearrange the helpers, repositioning them in the train.  

Another thing to think about is getting too complicated with the helpers means that you will end up with helpers scattered over the whole subdivision, some over here some over there, keeping the helper sets consistent, will mean you need fewer helper sets and can keep track of the helpers more easily.

Don't get too wound up in the crews.  Asst Chief Dispatchers spent about 1/4-1/3 of their time keeping track of and "balancing" crews.  You don't want to go there.  Keep it simple.

Did PC ran helpers on the rear downgrade?

I operated on a Model RR that followed the prototype.  It's based on the PC and when I had the opportunity to participate in an Op Session, I had two trains that needed helpers to get up and down the 2.5%+ grade and the helpers stayed on the rear.  Now would this be a more modern practice, or did the layout owner just keep things simple by not worrying about changing locomotive position.  

I was considering using some Steam Locomotives for helpers, which would require additional cabooses to should a crew need to run light back to either Points A or C (following the previous example I made) since they would be of no help downgrade.  

And with steam, what if there were two summits?  That is (to CHANGE the example and only dealing with train in this example heading from A to D) Train Starts at A, reaches B, Helpers Added at B, proceeds to Summit at C, heads downgrade to X proceed to Y having encountered no grades needing helpers between X and Y, at Y helper grade begins to Summit at Z then downgrade again to end of Crew District at D.  All grades being 2%+ which requires helpers upgrade.  Obviously when the trains reach C and Z, retainers need to be set, and need to be released at X.  Would the Steam locomotive helpers need to cut off at X and another helper added at Y?  

The distance between B and D is 50 miles, between B and X is 18 miles,  X and Y is 12 miles.  Y and D is 20 miles.  

Thanks all! 

Ken L.

Mountain grades and helper

Mountain grades and helper operations were places that dieselized early.

Diesels were superior to steam in low speed tractive effort.  Having a 'home' diesel service facility where helpers could return every day would have been another reason to put diesels in helper service.  And of course, there's the braking advantage, too.

Appalachians- bigger than you think...

FYI, the Appalachian plateau is massive. It runs from central Alabama to the western edge of New York state. It's not just in the hollows of Tennessee, the Carolinas and Virginia...

To continue with the C&O the

To continue with the C&O the New River Subdivision runs about 73 miles.  It has a reasonable grade heading east but was consider a flat subdivision as far as what locomotive they ran.  And how the ran them.

There was no perticular reason the sub was the length it was except the New Rive Gorge .  In that at the one end they had room at Hinton for a yard and at the other at Handley they had room for a yard.  In between they barely had room for a track in many place’s and the few wider places had coal mines or in the Case if Quinnimont and Thurmond they had coal marshaling yards.

So I think a lot of subdivisions in the mountains are dictated by geography more then anything else.  That being said you needed to change crews after a standard shift so keep that in mind,

-Doug M

modeling the C&O in the New River Sub circa 1943

Standard shift?

Standard shift?

Railroad crews could work 16 hours up until the mid 1970's, then it ratcheted down to 14 and then then 2 years later 12 hours, where it is now.  They would work as long as it took to get there, or as long as they could, up to their hours of service.  The only train crews with a "standard shift" were yard crews.

The majority of railroad crews are road crews.  They have no standard shift.  They are called to work when the train is ready, they work as long as it takes, up to the hours of service, get their rest, then do it it again.  It can be a grueling lifestyle.  

Suggested reading :  "Set Up Running" by John Orr

If a crew took less than 8 hours to to run 73 miles across the New River Sub, the dispatchers would most likely double the crew back if there was train ready.  Very common on short crew districts.  

As time went on, those short crew districts got combined into "interdivisional runs" and the crews would run through crew change.  Ft Worth to Houston, Longview, TX to Houston, Ft Worth to Longview, TX, were all two crew districts and were combined into one district in the 1990's.

The "costs" with crews aren't in how long they work.  Its the "arbitraries", "held away from home terminal" and "deadhead" that rack up the dollars.   

Arbitraries are additional penalty payments for extra work or work done outside the scope the crew's agreement.  If they have to lace the air on a cut of cars they pick up they get an extra payment.  If they ask the dispatcher to stop and eat lunch and the dispatcher tells them no, then they might get an extra 20" pay.  If they are delayed more than so many minutes leaving their initial terminal (e.g. 90") they an extra payment for initial terminal delay, if they they are delayed more than so many minutes from arriving the final terminal until they get tied up, they get final terminal delay.  If they set out more than some threshold (three places) they get paid at the local rate. There are hundreds of different payments and penalties that depend on the individual labor agreements.  Not all of them are everywhere and the payments may vary.  On certain parts of the T&P, the caboose had to have a broom and a stretcher.  On one of my territories, the crew got an extra half day's pay if I told them (as trainmaster) to wye their engine.  In variably, at least once a week for the first year I was there they would ask if they should wye their engine, hoping I would say yes. 

Held away from home terminal is a penalty payment for not using a crew at the away from home terminal in a timely manner.  Crews have a "home terminal".  That is the location they start from and that's normally where the extra board is.  They are called on a train and run to the next crew change.  That is their "away from home terminal" (AFHT).  Once they tie up for rest at the away from home terminal, a clock starts.  They nominally get 8 hours rest and then 8 hours later, if they haven't been called back out on a train going back to the home terminal, they get a "held away from home terminal" payment (HAHT) of a basic day, pro rated on an hourly basis until they are called, or up to 8 hours.  Then the clock resets, there is another 16 hours unpaid and then they get more HAHT.

If you have an imbalance of crews, more trains in one direction than the other, which is the normal way a railroad operates, crews have to be moved around to have enough RESTED crews on either end of the crew district.   If I have too many crews on one end, then it will take too long for those crews to be called on a train coming back, then I will end up paying HAHT.  If I send some of the crews back to the home terminal, then I "deadhead" them and pay them a basic day to ride back to the home terminal (by freight train, passenger train, bus, in a van, in a taxi, even by plane).  If I need crews at the away from home terminal, then I have to deadhead them to the AFHT, but that starts the HAHT clock, so if I don't use them in a timely manner then I end up paying both a deadhead and HAHT.  Even worse is if I miscalculate, deadhead a crew in one direction, then traffic changes (trains get annulled or delayed) then I have to deadhead them back, worst worst case is dead head them, not use them long enough to get HAHT then dead head them back.  By the time they got home they would have received 3 days pay and never turned a wheel.

Bottom line.  Worrying about whether the crew district is 100 miles or 120 miles is more or less irrelevant, it is what it is, the railroad has relatively no control over terrain and geography.  The stuff the railroad is worried about and where the big money is, is all the OTHER payments they have to make with the crew (which model railroads typically ignore).  Having a through freight crew do local work is something a railroad would be more concerned about.  And I am NOT suggesting that anybody should start modeling crew balancing.  Had to worry about that professionally for a quarter century, its not fun.

I"m not going to worry about Crew Balancing...

I did for a moment, then realized, there really is not much fun in that.  I do want to follow the prototype, but not to a degree where it is no longer fun.  My hope is to emulate the more "fun" parts of operation (including the mental challenge of running using TT&TO) .  But I also don't want to turn the layout into Fantasy Land.  If I said we were running from Buffalo to Chicago and the crews go on the train in Buffalo and ran all the way to Chicago, I would think people like Dave H. would, if asked, point out that wouldn't be plausible.  So maybe I need to not be so worried about if the distance of the Crew District is 123 miles or 98 miles.  

I have decided to move this Crew Change Point to South of Franklin, so it is approximately 112 miles (following the Allegheny River) from Pittsburgh, and ~98 miles south of the South Erie, PA Yard. 

Ken L

Some data above

I had some of that data in one of my posts above.

The Allegheny sub was a "crew district" - it's about 85 miles including the helper district going up the hill and ending at Clifton Forge.

The next one was the James River Sub, from Clifton Forge downhill all the way to Gladstone, about 160 miles.

Following that was the Rivanna Sub, also downhill from Gladstone to Richmond, is about 120 miles.

The last one went from Richmond to Newport News, only about 75 miles and operationally easy except for the first mile and a half.

Why did they do 160 to Gladstone and then 120 to Richmond? Mostly because that's where Gladstone was. It was a big enough spot on the riverside to put in a large yard (30 tracks). A couple of branches radiated out from around there too. They could have broken them at Lynchburg, which is right about half way between Clifton Forge and Richmond, but the facilities and space weren't as easy as at Gladstone. And operationally it was just as easy to go the extra 25 or so miles to Gladstone. (The fact that it was empties coming back up the hill also made it operationally reasonable to extend the James River Sub operation.)

Why 75 miles from Richmond to Newport News? That's all the distance that needed to be covered. Richmond was the company HQ and there were obviously facilities available. Even discounting the politics of operationally bypassing Richmond, it was way too far to go from Gladstone all the way to Newport News - 195 miles with a stiff grade in the middle. That grade was operationally not much trouble when the helpers simply ran the two miles from the Richmond yard limit and came back. But had they run all the way from Gladstone, there would have been a (very short) helper district roughly in the middle.