Sounds good

If you have room to accommodate the grades after you leave the yard.

I've run on a few layouts that used true fiddle yards, with Jack Ozanich's Atlantic Great Eastern sticking in my mind the best.  I think its operation was covered in an early issue of Model Railroad Planning.  As I recall he only used the front track or tracks for actual fiddling and the back tracks were just staging.  But it's been a couple decades since I've been there.

Jack is already missed.

Scott Chatfield

Re: grades

Hello, Scott, thank you. While I never saw Jack's yard in person, I do remember the article. And yes, my issue are the grades, considering the back two tracks will be three inches higher than the front track, and I do not think that unless I build a rather steep incline, that I can make it fit. I don't have a lot of length between a crossing diamond and the turnout leading to where the two tracks split, in order to make the turnout be on a flat plane (non-vertical turnout), but I'l have to go home and measure (again!).

Thanks!

Ralph

Stepping the tracks?

With the wide centerline to centerline track spacing in the photo I don't think stepping the tracks would be an advantage( unless they go to differnet levels on scene so the stepping would be useful). I wouldn't worry about extra rerailers since cars on straight tracks tend to stay on the rails. If using any I'd just put them as close to the turnous as possible to try and catch any wheels that got offf the rails going thru the frogs and guard rails.With no grades I doubt you'd need two switch engines to move 15 cars so might have a bit more leeway in car lengths in the cuts......DaveB

Re: “stair stepping”

Hi Dave....Yes, I agree, as stepping the yard tracks would also add unnecessary complexity to this, and clearly, if I REALLY thought it was imperative to the design off scene (it’s not), then I would have just done it already, LOL!

So yes, flat as a pancake is the way I think I’m gonna go with it, unless I am given a more compelling reason not to (not to mention, as I alluded to, it’ll get finished faster that way!) I have enough re-railers to do the job about every two feet, so that’ll work out well with no more purchases. 
 

The only other thing I found out is that 8 feet in length (clear of the turnout’s fouling point), will only hold eight 40ft cars and a caboose, so “power moves” will be necessary, which also reminds me Dave, that the ONLY reason I am using two unit switcher sets (unless there happens to be a train hauled by an RS or GP unit), is that that is the way the prototype ran. I also overweigh my cars, so I actually DO need the pulling power, depending on the make of the engine - Those Atlas S-2’s that I have six of will pull the house down! So my point being, is now I realize that I cannot pre-build two trains, assuming I have any 50ft cars in the train (there most certainly will be), and that train lengths will ALWAYS be at least 15 cars long (another certainty). Not a deal breaker (considering I can’t lengthen the fiddle yard anyway), but unfortunate none the less. Well, now I just have to finish the leads up TO the yard, and then I can get to it! 

Track spacing follows function

From a design perspective, you can get away with far less-generous track spacing in places where you won't be putting equipment onto or taking equipment off of the layout. You can make better use of space by figuring out where most of the equipment will be handled and providing more space between the tracks there.

To call back to Scott's comments on the Atlantic Great Eastern, that is actually the way that the Fiddle Yard there is designed- the stub-ended body tracks curve in a loose "el" shape, getting closer together after the curve where they turn and run along the hallway wall. When building or breaking down trains, we do all of our equipment-handling at the ladder end of the yard, on the short leg of the "el" (roughly paralleling the tracks coming in from South Dover and from East Berlinton), and push or pull cars to/from the stretch where the spacing narrowed.

As an aside, none of the track plans that have been published have really gotten the AGE's Fiddle Yard right. They mostly over-simplify the yard ladder and the tracks leading to the turntable.

Before committing to a final track layout, I'd suggest standing in the fiddle yard space and simulating the physical movements you'll need to make to make up or break down trains, basically performing an ergonomic study. That way it is easier to identify where you will need wider track spacing. A big factor in this will be where and how you store your rolling stock in relation to where the fiddle yard is located.

When we designed the fiddle yard for the Operations Road Show layout, we initially planned on storing freight cars in drawers beneath the yard, like Jack did on the AGE. After a few sessions on the ORS layout, we decided that we didn't much care for all of the bending and squatting needed to pull cars from beneath the yard, and we moved the storage cases to a narrow table we built on the other side of the aisle and at a more convenient height. It was considerably easier on the knees and back!

The point of fiddling is more cars while using minimal track.

It looks like you have a lot of fiddle tracks. I am wondering if you need all that capacity. How many trains run at a time? How many operators are there? 
 

If you are operating the layout alone then I understand that much fiddle/staging tracks.  I assume this is not a high traffic line. You could merge some of the fiddle tracks and use a turnout to have the train appear from behind the backdrop at the appropriate track. I just thinking that one operator will have a hard time keeping up with that much traffic and still have fun.

Thank you, Fritz....

Interesting observations about Jack's fiddle staging. While I never got to see his layout, I HAVE operated on the Road Show's (fun time, BTW!) at either the Philly or Hartford NMRA convention, I don't remember, I just remember having fun! But I digress...... 

As you can (sort of) see, My staging yard is, for all intents and purposes, a straight yard, except for where the yard throat is. I unfortunately, cannot elongate my staging yard any further (10 feet in physical length, 8 feet of usable track length, per track, depending), which precludes the original idea of having an engine pocket/runaround set of crossovers like I wanted to have from my original plan. 

BUT, if I move a set of pockets to the dedicated set of tracks feeding the Eastbound Mainline ON to the "stage", I can double my 15 car inbound transfer (10 cars and a caboose on the one track, 5 on the other), and have my outbound transfers OFF stage be 20 cars long (again, a doubling move with a little 0-5-0 help to get everything in the "yard"), and since the real RR ran heavier west than east, that works out well. (see plan below). I have both plastic rolling carts for car storage that I've disassembled and reassembled to make taller that are off the the right of the yard, a small shelf above the yard for mostly engine and caboose storage, and and old set of IBM punch card drawers directly underneath staging. The track spacing for the length of things will be one track width's worth wide, I think that'll be enough to get even the beefiest hands in between seven parallel tracks. I'm pretty confident I've found the right set of ergonomics, but time will tell!

Hi Shawn, thank you....

So, a couple of points to explain.....How many trains run at a time in and out? It COULD conceiveably run as many as four in and out at a time (in the diagram above, from top to bottom, you have the LV's National Docks Branch, the LV's Mainline east AND west, and the CNJ's Henderson St Branch). This part of the railroad was a heavy terminal operation, populated by transfer runs and interchange runs, all under yard limits - if a track was clear, the train ran. This does NOT mean that trains will be coming and going like a subway at rush hour though.

As for number of operators? Without (unless you really want me to go into the staffing positions), is about 10 to 14 people for this 26 x 11 layout. 

All of the LV routes have two tracks each because of capacity of said fiddle yard. I originally wanted double staging tracks for each LV route (the CNJ branch train frequency does not warrant such consideration), since I figured I could have two trains built to go Eastbound ON STAGE at the beginning of the session, and have two tracks ready to receive at least one Westbound OFF STAGE. I however do NOT think that is necessary. I have no problem doubling in and out my transfer runs of 15 to 20 cars each. The Fiddle Yard Yardmaster would (should?) never have to deal with more than two trains at a time. I plan to run things on a sequenced, one in, and then one out, manner. An inbound (West) train can be held outside the yard if the Yardmaster needs to finish building and/or doubling his Eastbound train, and if the main yard on the layout can't handle the inbound (East) train, then he can handle another fiddle job on or off the layout.

I'm confused a bit about your comment of "You could merge some of the fiddle tracks and use a turnout to have the train appear from behind the backdrop at the appropriate track", but I suppose that may be born of you not having any concept of the rest of the "on stage" layout plan. And the answer is, I only have a line diagram, no actual track plan, there's WAY too much track for me to do it in any kind of planning software, and the resulting hand drawn plan would be either messy, or over-simplified.

I hope this answers your questions! But in a nutshell yes, I need this many tracks!

Engine pockets

Adding the engine pockets and runarounds will really reduce the capacity of the yard for very little advantage.

For example if you have the two engine pockets shown in the diagram above, plus the tail track, that means you have about 5 ft of track space that would have to be left open to use all of those things.  The two engine pocket switches are about a foot each, the tail switch is about a foot and to allow a tail for two switch engines that's about 16-18".  Throw in a couple inches for clearance and you are pushing 4-5 ft of space consumed to leave things open for those tracks.

If you want an escape track, use a sector plate, traverser or turntable at the end of the staging yard.  A traverser or a cradle requires minimal space, a cradle allows power or equipment to be swapped out quickly.  Both a turntable and cradle allow equipment to be turned if that's important.  Here is a picture of the end of my staging yard I have used on the last two layouts.  It has a "turntable" that is rotated by hand and holds an engine and a caboose.  It can access 5 of 7 staging tracks directly, tracks 1 and 7 have crossovers to allow access with a loss of capacity.

As far as fiddling goes, if you want to reach between the tracks then you need about 3" on center at least. and putting rerailers every couple feet are handy when swapping out cars.  

As far as differentiation goes, you could do that with different ballast or by painting the track different colors.  The CNJ isn't a problem because once you start on the CNJ route you are committed, can't mess that up.

If you were to put a sector plate, cradle, turntable, etc on the right end I would suggest putting a track between the EWD and WWD LV main pairs as an escape track.  A train would come in the Oak Island inbound track, cut off onto the sector plate, etc, move to the runner and run back out to the left end of an EWD track and return to the layout with an EWD train. 

If you were flexible on your directions on the mains you could double your staging capacity.  If you started with 4 cuts from Oak Island, one on each main, your first move would be to come out of staging with an inbound cut.  That opens a hole for a cut to Oak Island to return.  As a transfer opens a main by delivering a cut to the visible layout, it opens a hole for a returning transfer to Oak Island.  You just have to be be willing to run "wrong main".

The far ends?

Do you need to be able to run engines into the yard then takem them off the train during a session? If the trains can be staged as outbounds before a session and terminate as inbounds and stay in the yard during the session you could eliminate the far end sector plate/turntable  and just maximize the yard capacity with stub end tracks. Between sessions everything could be re-arranged using an on scene run around track.Alternately just make one of the yard tracks double ended and reserve it for a run a round track for inbound trains.Eliminating turnouts, turntables, sector plates.etc. can simplify construction and maintenence and increase reliability. ....DaveB

Dave H -

Dave H, you are spot on with how things are set up (I see you've been keeping track, no pun intended!)

And you are right, because of the turnouts and engine pockets, the usable track length goes from 8 feet (which will hold two S or SW-type switchers, 15 40ft box cars, and a caboose), and no more. Which means doubling the tracks to build (or yard) a train. Not a deal breaker, but also not a perfect solution. I did some rough track length/capacity calculations, and it'll all fit (with actually some room to spare, which is good, seeing as that there will be 50ft cars in the mix), but it's gonna be tight.

When I saw your post, I immediate cursed you (in a good way, of course), because your "turntable" makes sense, and THEN, I don't actually HAVE to have as many tracks in staging as Shawn questioned, because there will be no need for engine pockets and the space-eating turnouts, and there will be no turnout at the throat of the yard to split the tracks into pairs, thus giving me a bit more track length (and thus, capacity), though admittedly not that much more....But, more IS more.....

However, you have the "luxury" of much smaller engines and cars (a two unit switcher set is about 16 inches long, coupler to coupler) And yes, before someone asks, that's what I am going to run, as that's how the prototype did it, AND my cars are over-weighed, so the pulling power of two IS needed. Therefor, as much as I dig your design and installation, I don't think it's gonna work for me (but I AM still mulling it over!). The best thing about it is, think of all the money I'll save on not having to buy the extra five Peco turnouts I need to do it my way!

I'll let you know what I decide to do over the next few days...

Dave B -

Oh, how I wish I could pre-stage and then once it has run, forget about it! Again, this is a busy terminal operation, manned by at least a dozen guys. I need an almost constant stream of trains (well, at least what the layout can bear, which is probably one EB and one WB train on the main route, every 15/20 real minutes). Sessions will run approx 4 hours (every 20 mins=1 fast hour), or so I have planned in my head....Previous sessions ran in a sequenced way, but I want to simulate connections and cutoff times, so that means a schedule with times and a clock.

But, if I see where you are going with this, instead of having two separate tracks for each the LV EB mains and the WB mains (as well as the National Docs Branch towards the back), I could just merge the two main tracks into two (I already have some crossovers to allow for trains to enter and exit in the right direction, as seen in the diagram below), so this could ALSO work. Sort of merging yours and Dave H's and Shawn's ideas/points together.

I'm going to cook up a conceptualized "Dave H meets Dave B, with a splash of Fritz M and Shawn ideas mixed in" staging yard line diagram idea soon...Stay tuned!

fiddle, staging and cassettes

Hi,

your fiddle yard is larger than my layout...

A couple of good suggestions have been made - use only the front two tracks for fiddling and move the trains over to the rear tracks for staging - that would allow you to have generous track spacing at the front. Also, with the shelf above, you'd likely avoid fiddling on those rear tracks.

May I add another idea? Like you, I don't have the space to store all my trains on the layout (it's a small layout). I've built a small display case that allows me to take the shelves out. To get a train on the layout, I can lift the shelf out and put it at the end of an open track. In a similar fashion, you could add a cassette to your fiddle yard. It would allow you to prepare trains and then just put them on the layout when necessary. It would even allow you to fiddle a train on the workbench or table while someone else is working on the fiddle yard itself.

To keep trains from falling off while lifted, every shelf has a rear wall made of a strip of plexiglass.

Anyway, from the pictures it looks like a nice area!

Have fun!

  "this is a busy terminal

Hi Ralph, Is all the layout depicting the traffic to and from the car floats on the Jersey side?  Do the car floats also move to the New York side or are the cross river trips just simulated? ....DaveB

More storage

In my previous post, I floated the idea of a central "runner" for engine escape.  If you made that track accessible to both the EWD and WWD LV mains and gave finger room around it, you could use that as a "fiddle track" and then put the rest of the tracks on tighter spacing, maybe gaining an additional track or two in each direction.

What you would give up is fiddling multiple tracks during a session.  Fiddling would have to be done between sessions, or you would have to fiddle the single track during the session.  A train would come into the runner, the cars would be removed and a "prebilled" train would be loaded out of storage and go out the other main.  If the fiddle yard got behind a pre-staged train could be operated.   

Dave B -

Simulated. I WISH I had the ability (and more importantly, ROOM) to move my carfloats across the basement and unload them. But alas, the "completist" in me would then have to have both the Manhattan AND Bronx carfloat terminals! Strangely enough, if and when my friend Dave Ramos tears down his New York Harbor RR (www.nyhrr.com), which has a model of the West 27th St Manhattan terminal, he say i HAVE to find room for it, and then I CAN move carfloats "across the river"!

But yes, right now, the "east end" of the layout at the modeled transfer yard, the cars will be fiddled on/off the four carfloats, just like they are here.

Here, just for "completeness sake", I've included a line diagram of the yard where the piers and carfloats are located -

Oh, and about 2 feet wide, not counting the piers which stick out about a foot and a half (and at an angle), with about 36 inches in between them to access the yard.

Here's what the prototype looked like....almost everything in this shot (short of Manhattan) will be modeled - 

Dave H -

I just caught your latest post, but had drawn up this idea earlier, after our first exchange.......As you can see in the shaded section on layout portion of the leads to and from staging, that the EB and WB mains, as well as the Nation Docks Br, have access to all tracks at hat I am calling "Phillips St. Interlocking", even though there is no interlocking of turnouts going on here. The Real Phillips St was a little bit further east, and was where the National Docks crossed the CNJ, so it's "acceptably prototypical" enough for me, considering all tracks and locations on the railroad HAVE to be named, and this is NOT a made up name!

So, in the meantime before I come up with another staging idea (yes, CURSE YOU AGAIN! LOL!), enjoy this idea as "food for thought".......