Layout

1.  Geometry :  Don't know how it will work with Kato track.  With conventional switches and flex track, you can trim one of the switches or bend the flex track to make it fit.

2.  Coal Plant :  Some how a coal fired power plant doesn't scream "Florida" to me.  Do you really need a coal plant, especially on a spot that doesn't give you enough room to model one.  Would other industries be a better fit?

3.  General:

a)  The yard looks really cumbersome, no place to arrive or build a train, short tail track, no way to depart out of the yard directly, any move involves sawing around.  Maybe move the freight yard to the bottom module and have one passenger terminal on the top module (or vice versa.). 

b) All the passenger trains you mention are through trains but all your passenger stations are stub ended.  You can have a station stop for the passenger trains without having a "terminal".

c) Any way you can build a "shelf", attached to the garage wall, that is a staging yard to hold trains to minimize handling of the equipment and speed set up and take down.

Geometry

Dave's post is wonderfully comprehensive to think about.
-my simple suggestion to the passenger track: could it just come directly off the yellow-colored main? (It would make little difference, if you keep the present yard track geometry.)

Douglas

Is the garage door to the left or the right? I'm assuming

Right, in which case staging under/ over tthe two loops on the left is an option.

Dave's reply

Thanks Dave.  

1. Geometry.  I currently have a mix of Kato Unitrack and Atlas flex track/switches on my N-trak modules.  I'm trying to stick with Unitrack for the T-Trak but if I have to change I will.  I've cut track in the past so that's not a barrier.

2. Coal Plant.  It did not with me either.  But when I was looking for "what do I do with limestone?" I friend who works at a coal plant mentioned supplying a coal plant.  My original plan was to have that off layout (class limestone loads at the north yard, then leave and return with empties).  Then I searched online and found quite a few plants in Florida, receiving coal from north sources and dropped at Jax classification for further transfer.  It might be easier to drop it.

3. The Yard.  It got bulky when I added the Passenger Terminal.  That's meant to represent the Jacksonville Transfer Yard, which has Union Station nearby (as I understand it).  Blue is the A/D track (Passenger added/expanded), Green is the class yard.  Light blue is the RIP/Service area. Purple is the Yard Lead.  My limitation was Unitrack, it works better with Peco switches/Atlas flextrack so I'll likely build it that way.

4. Passenger services.  They came from North, stopped at Jax, then went on to Miami.  The Terminal in the Yard is supposed to represent Jax, the S. Terminal is supposed to represent Miami as a big terminus.  The mid-state station is just a local stop for an FEC loca passenger service.

5. Ops.  My vision (which may be way over-burdened) is Limestone from the quarry to the coal and cement plants.  Sand and coal from external to the coal and cement plants, cement and limestone to the north, and empties from the north, coal, and cement plants to the north or quarry as appropriate.  In parallel is a through train (based on day of month) from Jax to Miami and return with a local from Jax to Miami and a local from Miami to Jax.  A typical ops session would be small trains (4-8 cars) for 3-5 trains.  Having written this out, it does seem a bit much.  If by myself I'd just start a passenger train on the loop and move some freight as I find handling 2 trains at once a bit difficult.

6. Shelf.  That's a great idea!  I'd have to re-arrange some storage/work space in the garage.  I'll have to study that one.

Thanks again.

Tim

Passenger terminal on yellow track

Thanks, Douglas.

That was my first thought but I wanted a train delay at the Union Station there.  Same with the South Terminus.  Train arrives and stops, then a different train departs.

I'll rework that and see how it looks.

Thanks again,

Tim

Staging under the loops

I'm not sure how I'd implement that.  Helix?  

The garage door can be either side as this is a portable layout, meant to be put together on weekends only.  I don't have a permanent space I can use.

Dave's idea to create a permanent staging yard on the wall would allow me to keep the rolling stock in place and minimize handling.  I'm going to look into that.

Tim

Limestone

Power plants aren't really big consumers of limestone.  I had 2 coal fired power plants on my territory and have had a half dozen or so on my region and can't remember delivering a single car of limestone to any of them.  Probably some do for scrubbers, but its probably a fraction of the coal use.

I would suggest a cement plant or a lime plant, both take limestone, cook it and make an outbound product.  They would use WAAAAY more limestone than a power plant.  Even a construction materials yard, that just distributes crushed rock would be a bigger user.  That could even be a "temporary" site established on an unused industrial site, for a highway project.

Re: Limestone

Thanks, Dave  very helpful  I like that. Solves a big problem. 
 

Tim

Some thoughts - passenger operations

Hi Tim,

For your terminal passenger station (5) :

for both sets of parallel tracks - Add engine escapes. This is simply a crossover from one track to the adjacent track that commences just over 1 locomotive length from the buffers. The train comes in, pulls up clear of the escape track, ties down the passenger cars. The loco uncouples, pulls forward to the buffers, the escape road is set and the locomotive crosses to the adjacent track as its "escape". The loco can then head out to either service  (a small dead-end track) or use the escape road as a runaround to get the locomotive onto the other end of the passenger train. 

The escape road can also be used to re-marshal the inbound head-end cars to the head of the new outbound train. This is another justification for the station pilot locomotive (station yard goat??).  

This does shorten the available platform length, but it can be reclaimed when the arriving train locomotive has escaped and either the train locomotive or the station pilot locomotive nudges the train down onto the buffers. 

Check out the following video to see how an escape road operates at a terminal station

Service track - add to the unused top right  area - a single track with basic facilities capable of holding one locomotive - Fuel hose/water hose/sand tower (optional).  

Station pilot track - this could be either part of the service track or may be a short standalone track used for parking the station pilot locomotive clear of arriving or departing trains. 

These type of station operations have largely been lost since the introduction of push-pull passenger service. 

Re: Escape Road

Thanks, John. 
 

The escape road is an interesting idea. My challenge is the train consists of 3-5 Budd coaches with the end coach being an observation coach with a rounded tail. So both the engine and tail end have to be turned around. The prototype used a huge Y, after unloading the engine would go to a service area and the cars would be turned around by a switcher via the Y. I was planning to mimic that with the loop on the end. I may still incorporate it but if I do I’d have to add a short Y to turn the engine around. 
 

I like the service track idea. I wasn’t sure what to do with the empty space other than scenery. same goes with the pilot track. 
 

thanks again,

Tim

  "Some how a coal fired

How about something ag related to give an excuse to run some reefers? .....DaveB

Turntable Option 1??

Hi Tim

I've played this game before with N-scale heavyweights as well as the corrugated streamliners. It gets even more complicated when you are swapping head-end cars as well as reversing the observation car

If you can get 2 approach roads to a turntable placed hard up in the top right corner, the 2 approach roads and the turntable deck itself act a as your reverser and run-around combined. 

Assuming you have an operational coupling on the observation car and using a switcher, here's how it might work:

1. Train arrives at platform (call it Platform Track 1) pulls up short of escape turnout on track 1. 
2. Train loco uncouples and goes forward to buffers on Platform Track 
3. Switcher couples to rear of train (observation car) at Platform Track 1 
4. Train loco escapes to Platform Track 2 and holds on Platform Track 2.
5. Escape track is reset to straight ahead tracks 1 & 2.
6. Switcher shoves train in if it is foul of of turnout between Platform Tracks 1 and 2 at far end of platform (or else couples to train and uncouples observation car from rest of train). 
7. Train loco to turntable, turns on turntable, and parks on Turntable Track 2 (or optional move here to the servicing track for a light service (coal/ash out/grease/water/sand if a steam loco or fuel/water/sand if a diesel loco)
8. Switcher and observation car to Turntable Track 1.
9. Train loco departs Turntable Track 2 (or service track) and heads back to Platform 1 and couples to train cars .
10. Switcher uncouples from observation car, uses the turntable to get to Turntable Track 2
11. Switcher uses Turntable Track 2 as a run around, and couples to the other end of the observation car on Turntable Track 1
12. Switcher propels the observation car to the turntable, uncouples and retreats to Turntable Track 1
13. Observation car is turned on turntable
14. Switcher couples to turned observation car on turntable and retreats to turntable track 1, and uncouples leaving the turned observation car on Turntable Track 1.
15. Switcher runs around observation via turntable track 2 and the turntable bridge, couples to the non-rounded end of the observation car on turntable track 1.  
16. Switcher propels observation car via Platform Track 2 and escape road to the buffers at Platform Track 1.
17. Switcher uncouples, leaving rounded end of observation car facing the buffers on Platform Track 1.
18. Switcher uses the escape track and parks either on platform track 2 or proceeds to either its storage track or one of the turntable tracks.
19. Escape tracks are lined to straight
20. Train loco pushes back onto the observation car parked at buffers on Platform Track 1
21. Outbound train is complete and ready for departure from Platform Track 1
22. WHEW!!! .Crew change for the departing train and a coffee break for the switching crew - before the next passenger consist arrives.. 

This is a simpler option with a different turntable setup that I'll detail next,

Turntable Option 2??

Hi Tim,

This option again uses the escape tracks and uses one track into the turntable with a run-through track beyond the turntable deck that can just fit the length of the switcher. Again this assumes that you have an operational coupler on the rounded end of the observation car.

Walking through the moves:

1. Train arrives at platform (call it Platform Track 1) pulls up short of escape turnout on track 1. 
2. Train loco uncouples and moves forward to buffers on Platform Track 1 
3. Switcher couples to rear of train (observation car) at Platform Track 1 
4. Train loco escapes to Platform Track 2 and proceeds to turntable for turning.
5. Train loco is turned on turntable and proceeds to another track after turning (either Platform Track 2 or the Service track will do to get the train loco out of the way of the switcher) 
6. Switcher shoves train in if it is foul of of turnout between Platform Tracks 1 and 2 at far end of platform (or else couples to train and uncouples observation car from rest of train). 
7. Switcher and observation car move to turntable, 
8. Uncouple observation car on turntable bridge
9. Switcher proceeds forward to the Run-through Track and holds clear of the turntable.
10. Observation car is turned on the turntable.
11. Train loco heads back to Platform 1 and couples to train cars.
12. Switcher moves to turntable and couples to the non-rounded end of the turned observation car.
13. Switcher propels observation car via Platform Track 2 and escape road to the buffers at Platform Track 1.
14. Switcher uncouples, leaving rounded end of observation car facing the buffers on Platform Track 1.
15. Switcher uses the escape track and parks either on platform track 2 or proceeds to either its storage track or the turntable track.
16. Escape tracks are lined to straight
17. Train loco pushes back onto the observation car parked at buffers on Platform Track 1
18. Outbound train is complete and ready for departure from Platform Track 1. 

Another option for the Coal Plant module - If you cant fit the turntable in at top right of Module 5, consider changing the purpose of the Coal Plant module to a major locomotive servicing facility.This would receive coal for a coaling tower, oil for diesel locomotives to a small tank farm for feeding the fuelling points, receive sand for a sand drying house and sanding tower. The turntable could feed a 3 to 6 stall roundhouse for steam maintenance to one side of the module and a fan-to-parallel 3 to 6 tracks for a double-locomotive-length depth diesel locomotive service centre. There might also be able to fit in some outside storage tracks for locomotives   

This would generate single/multiple light engine moves from both the Classification Yard module and the Module 5 terminal station, as well as the turning moves from the terminal station that require the turntable. Depending on how hard you decide to run things, these moves would have to be fitted in between the Quarry/Cement Plant traffic and any orbiting passenger or freight services.  

My feedback

Tim,

On #1: Besides what Dave stated, you could move the terminal track away from the main line and align it with the switch. The cross over on the left side of the module then needs a straight extension between the cross over switches. The staging/classification tracks would all move away/down from the main line because of this and you'd lose some track length on the pink run around track.

Regarding the turning of the observation car and loco: since the space is so cramped and you were going to use the loop to turn these two, why not do what some prototypes did: turn the entire train in a loop. I believe it was Union station in New York that had a loop track. You'd come in the station, unload passengers, then do whatever moves are needed to head out into the loop, come back and position your turned train alongside the platform again ready for loading.

#2: limestone for coal. From my limited research in coal fired power plants, the ratio for limestone used for exhaust gas scrubbers is approximately 4 tons of limestone per 100 tons of coal burned. Or about 1 limestone shorty hopper per 20-21 coal hoppers. This is why some coal fired power plants don't get limestone loads per rail car but by truck instead. Even the large NIPSCO Schafer powerplant in Wheatfield, IN gets it trucked in while it has five 125 car unit train arrival/unloading tracks as there are large limestone deposits nearby. On the other hand, the smaller Dominion powerplant in Clover, VA does get limestone by the rail car load.

#3: I think the dual main of N-track/T-track is not helping you getting a realistic operation model. But if you want to be able to use modules for a setup with others, you're somewhat stuck with that format. Having said that, it doesn't mean you can't say in your private setup you only have 1 main and denote/use main 2 as an industry owned lead instead. It just happens to run along the entire layout and past multiple industries. During a combined setup you'd foul main 2 if you want to operate your industries if planning your layout like this. However, with careful planning the amount of times you need to use main 2 as the lead can be minimized, which means during a combined setup and good interaction with the run chief/dispatcher this might be acceptable. It would likely solve some of your stand alone setup issues. The main thing you'd need is ensure access from main 1 to industry leads (main 2) in the right places and ensure your loops have a cross over back to main 1 (top loop has that arrangement, bottom loop would need that) so they effectively become revering loops for continuous running on main 1 only.

Re: Turntable Options

Holy cow!  Thanks for detailed ideas.  I’m reading through these and trying to visualize a session. I think I’ll print these as a hard copy and read them out loud, moving some cases by hand for the experience. I like the major maintenance site instead of the coal plant. I can move that from the staging yard and make room for a better Union Station. 
 

Thanks John!

Tim

Moving the terminal track

Thanks Yaron. 

#1. That’s a good idea and combining that with moving the RIP/Service tracks (light blue) to dedicated maintenance module vice coal plant actually makes room for that move. 

#2. I’ve let go of the coal plant. 

#3. No interest in connecting my modules w other modelers. My use of N/T-trak is solely for a standard as my guide in making the layout portable. The double mains allow me to create a loop separate from the industries but to be fair I can adjust the loops to loop back onto themselves with a single main as you note. NTrak does have a third line in parallel (blue) for local ops and I can easily accommodate that with Ntrak as the modules are a bit larger. I’ve considered more use of crossovers and the double crossover but it starts to get (more) expensive. Because of Unitrack’s poor #4 switch I’m trying to design this with #6’s on the main. Off the main...I’m still testing but in yesterday’s session my #4’s both were giving me issues with my switchers and short cars. I may abandon use of unitrack other than the mains. I’ll reassess the double mains on my TTrak design. 

Thanks again. 
Tim

You can make your layout portable without the standards.

Make your own guidelines. My personal guideline maximum is 6’x2’ for movable sections. I would incorporate the corner sections into the mid state station and coal plant sections, unless you plan on rearranging it later. 
 

I would remove the passenger terminal at the top and rework the yard. 
Your current arrangement will make very tedious work of breaking down a train or making a train. You have 3 reverse moves to reach the A/D track. 2 which require moving on the mainline. Ideally this should be 1. You should be able to pull cars from the A/D track, reverse direction, and push them into a yard track. 
 

Not setting up with others? Ditch limitations!

Tim,

I agree with Shawn. If you are not going to setup with others at all, ditch the restrictive modular standards! I'm all for modular standards, but only if you actually need the interoperability with others during combined setups. If you're not going to do that, follow a modular principle from a portability perspective only and let the track crossing from one module to another be dictated by the required flow of tracks, not the other way around.

For example, your coal fired powerplant could benefit from the mid state station going to the other side of the 2 main tracks (or even in between). That would free up a ton of space the coal industry could use for spurs. This would not be possible if holding onto specific module standards.

Re: Make My Own Guidelines

Thanks, Shawn. 

My original yard design did not have the passenger terminal. I was trying to squeeze that in. 

I have decided to revert back and reevaluate the design in terms of module size. Currently the yard is either on 6x T-Trak or 2x 2x4 N-Trak. I have a 6x2 test module (just 2” foam board) and I want to see if I can fit it into that. I like the idea of merging the corners. That is a great idea. 

Thanks again. 
Tim

Re: Ditch limitations

Haha!  My wife and I were discussing your earlier recommendations and we came to this conclusion. So now my task is to redesign without letting myself get stuck in arbitrary standards. I will use the under track standards for electrical and the interconnections but where the tracks go will be where I want them. 

Thanks, Yaron!

Tim