David Husman dave1905

I am about to launch Phase II of my layout construction. My layout will model the W&N Branch or the P&R Railroad from Wilmington , DE to Birdsboro, PA (near Reading, PA) in 1900-1905.  I have built the southern half from Wilmington to Coatesville, now its time to start the Northern half, Coatesville to Birdsboro.

Here is a schematic of the prototype (not to scale).  At Elverson there was a junction with the French Creek Branch that I will model as a shadowbox switching area on a lower level.  Birdsboro was the terminus of the W&N freight trains and a junction with the rest of the P&R.  They would terminate there and P&R freights would pick up and set out cars to and from the W&N Branch.  The W&N passenger trains would continue on to Reading "Outer Station".  I can model Outer Station as a shadow box also.  Both Elverson and Birdsboro had wyes.

The ruling grade on the W&N was from SWD from Birdsboro to Elverson and NWD from Coatesville to Elverson.

Proto.png 

The current track arrangement I have in one corner of my space has the helixes down to the French Creek Br. and to Reading Outer Station nested, with the wyes situated next to them.  At Birdsboro there are staging tracks representing the tracks the "mainline" trains uses to set out and pick up.  

The original model schematic is below.  The blue area would be hidden trackage going to Outer Station and I had a reverse loop primarily if I wanted to have some form of "continuous running".  It would have to be managed manually since my switches are manually operated, so it wasn't like I could just sit back and just run a train on a loop hands off, it would require lining switches on return loops at both ends of the layout.  Neither return loop would be used as such during an op session.

Model.png 

The general area I am concerned with is shown below.  The area in the red box is particularly critical.

Originally I had planned to run a grade up from Birdsboro to Elverson on the peninsula (represented by the grey dotted line) and then down from Elverson to Coatesville (towards Wilmington).  The tail of the Elverson wye would pass over the reverse loop and make one additional turn to get down to the reverse loop level then both the line to Reading and the French Creek Branch would be on a two track helix down. The "crossing" in the red box would be a grade separated overpass.

However, reality reared its ugly head and more detailed calculations revealed that I wouldn't have enough run to get from Birdsboro to Elverson, the grade would end up too steep for my small steamers (over 2%).  Bummer.

That generated plan B, which got rid of the grades, and converted the crossing to an actual, at grade crossing.  That sorta solved the problem, but had some down sides.  It got rid of the grades, changing how I could run trains.  It resulted in both a switch and a crossing in hidden location, that while wouldn't be used during a normal op session would still present a potential conflict.  

Model1.png 

That brings us to Plan C.  I began to question why I needed the reverse loop.  Many iterations before having the line to Outer Station, it had a purpose to handle the passenger trains, but with the option of the line to Outer Station, it wasn't need for passenger trains.  So what happens if I lose the reverse loop?  That is the plan below.

Model2.png 

Losing the reverse loop eliminates the hidden switch and crossing.  It now allows a smaller grade to be reinstated up to Elverson, re-imposing tonnage restrictions and operations due to the grade.  Because there is no crossing in the red box the grade doesn't have to actually gain clearance it can be just enough to create and operational issue.  The down side is it does complicate the geometry of the top of the helix a bit and make it about 4-8" larger in diameter, plus it mostly gives up the chance of a "continuous run" option (which wasn't really that good in the first place.)  If I did need to turn a train at Birdsboro, I could still wye it.

So what is the best option?  Keep the reverse loop and flatten the layout or lose the reverse loop and put in the grade?

What say ye?

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index:  Dave Husman Blog Index

Reply 0
ctxmf74

Thoughts

I always look for some way to have continuous running. For test engines and cars or for the times I don't want to assemble a nice long train then run it 50 feet to the end of the layout and have to stop and take it apart. Some kind of loop lets one run till they have seen enough of that train then they can stop at the next town :> ) You might consider auto reverser and spring switches to get continuous running with reverse loops. As for grades I'd keep them as flat as possible unless the goal is modeling a helper district then I'd make them steep enough to test the equipment and the operators skills :> ) ......DaveB 

Reply 0
BOK

Dave,I too enjoy continuous

Dave,I too enjoy continuous running and do it using flop over switches and one spring switch. 

The flop overs are really just Walthers and Atlas ones both in staging and one leg of a wye on the sceniced part of the railroad. The engines pony trucks or on diesels, lead trucks just push the points over for which ever route they run. This type of operation works so well along with DCC automatic reverse loop/wye circuits I doubt I'll ever change them. Once in a while I need to add a little lite, oil to the switchrod/points but other than that they work great.

The spring switch is also an Atlas one and works flawlessly. 

Yes I like the option of continuous operation.

Barry

Reply 0
David Husman dave1905

Flop over switches?

Do you put switches with no "latching" in the main track?

How do you hold them in position and line them during normal operation?

The switches that would end up being "flop over" would be ones that EVERY main track train in either direction would pass over.   Not sure about that idea.

 

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index:  Dave Husman Blog Index

Reply 0
Don Mitchell donm

2 helices?

Not sure about what happens at the bottom of the helices shown, but are 2 tracks really necessary? 

Turnouts in the red box area at the top and bottom of a single track helix could solve some problems with both construction and operation.  The catch would be that remotely controlled switch machines would be needed.

Don Mitchell

R%20logo.jpg
Read my blog

Reply 0
BOK

Dave good points.The flop

Dave good points.

The flop over switches allow entrance/departure from either direction on two legs of a wye and one switch of a dog bone crossover on each end of a reverse loop for staging. The third leg of the wye which is not easy to reach is handled manually via push pull cable and Fast Tracks switch machine. The last important switch is at the end of a un-sceniced , guest, "bed room" branch reverse loop and is a spring switch.

Since I don't care which way the one through freight (which feeds the short line) and the one Amtrak local go in/out of staging the engines merely push the points over no matter if they are "lined for or against" movement. This allows main line traffic to pass through the junction un-assisted in either direction illustrating out and back movements. Rarely do the points not line up and rarely is there a derailment.

Perhaps the attached photos will help.

00249(1).jpg 

 

 

65803(1).jpg 

7_230128.jpg 

33955(3).jpg 

 

05215(4).jpg 

05248(3).jpg 

Barry

Reply 0
Danno164

I wont complicate the

I wont complicate the question by pontificating "what works for me" or strategic ops that I have little knowledge on,  however continuous run is how most of us got started,  I think so anyways..,  a loop around the tree, and then the infamous 4 x 8.. I am a fan of continuous run because I just don't have the real-estate (7 x16) for long runs of point to point..(although there are some nice small switching point to point layouts out there) Continuous run I think brings us back to a time when rivet counting didn't exist, maybe more like clock watching in middle school..when we got bit by the rail bug...continuous RUN ?? do it if you can, sometimes its cool to just let em run while working scenery etc..or if you have kids or grand kids...Good luck nice plans. get em running, send pics..

Daniel

Reply 0
BOK

Dave good points.The flop

Dave good points.

The flop over switches allow entrance/departure from either direction on two legs of a wye and one switch of a dog bone crossover on each end of a reverse loop for staging. The third leg of the wye which is not easy to reach is handled manually via push pull cable and Fast Tracks switch machine. The last important switch is at the end of a un-sceniced , guest, "bed room" branch reverse loop and is a spring switch.

Since I don't care which way the one through freight (which feeds the short line) and the one Amtrak local go in/out of staging the engines merely push the points over no matter if they are "lined for or against" movement. This allows main line traffic to pass through the junction un-assisted in either direction illustrating out and back movements. Rarely do the points not line up and rarely is there a derailment.

Perhaps the attached photos will help.

00249(1).jpg 

 

 

65803(1).jpg 

7_230128.jpg 

 

Barry

 

 

Reply 0
Danno164

P.S. you can have continuous

P.S. you can have continuous run and rivet count, (I don't meant to offend any rivet counters)  I get hung up on details myself, scale couplers or just #5's  is about how far I go, oh wait and maybe trucks and wheelsets, or utility pole spacing...yadda yadda Good luck

Daniel

Reply 0
BOK

I apologize for my goofy

I apologize for my goofy posting and photos. I tried repeatedly to get all the pix to line up right to no avail.

Attached is a sketch showing staging (in another room) and the short line jct. in the sceniced portion of the railroad.

20img186.jpg 

Barry

Reply 0
barr_ceo

Why not both?

< < cue maharachi band...

Before I had to move, I was constructing a fairly large basement layout that worked it's way up a continuous grade of 1.5% around three walls and a central peninsula, which would have given me what was topologically a long "dog bone" with a terminal yard / visible staging in each end loop... It could have been operated as either point to point, or continuous loop and was easily long enough for 4-6 trains at a time.  I'd planned to have an elevated high-speed passenger line as well, that would have scheduled meets at the midway point station so two opposing "bullet" trains could be run point to point as well, independent of the freights.

That layout is just a fantasy now, but I'm building T-Trak modules... and turn-around loops are under construction to allow continuous running on a free-form configuration of modules.

The nice thing is if you build for continuous running AND point to point, you always have the option of ignoring the loops and/or using them as additional staging. If you build for only point to point.... you're committed.

 

Reply 0
David Husman dave1905

Next question

The continuous run is nice but if I don't have it it won't be an issue.  I haven't had a layout with a continuous run  for 10-15 years, so its not a necessity.

Actually, creating the graphics has revealed an even simpler way to get a continuous run that doesn't require worrying about reversing loops or throwing switches.  It will require one switch (only lined for continuous run) and about 3-6 ft of track.

Continuous run is available if I want it.   So that's not an issue.  The problem can be solved.

The question then comes back to whether it would be more interesting to have a physical grade impediment that that would limit the size of trains or to impose an operational limit to simulate the effect of the grade.

A physical grade would limit the size of a train from 15 down to 10 cars from Birdsboro to Elverson and then SWD trains could be 15 cars south of Elverson.  A NWD train would be 12 cars from Wilmington to Coatesville and then  10 cars from Coatesville to Elverson and 15 cars from Elverson to Birdsboro.

An operational limit would be having a flat railroad and just impose the appropriate car limits (although the train could physically haul more cars).

As an operator would you prefer a real limitation, a simulated limitation or would it not matter at all?

 

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index:  Dave Husman Blog Index

Reply 0
ctxmf74

  "As an operator would you

Quote:

"As an operator would you prefer a real limitation, a simulated limitation or would it not matter at all?"

I think having a real necessity for helpers or short trains would have more play value than just simulating the grade. Might be because almost all of my favorite rail fanning location are steep grades and helper districts.....DaveB

Reply 0
sunacres

keeping it real

Designing for some generic operator probably favors minimizing grades, but I know I like to experience the effects of a grade when the geography says there's a grade. Not so much in limiting train length - that effect is so distorted by the physics of scale - but certainly its influence on coupler slack behavior and car setout/handbrake thinking for any switching along the route. 

Nice little puzzle. 

Jeff Allen

Jeff Allen

My MRH Blog Index

Reply 0
laming

This...

Quote:

I think having a real necessity for helpers or short trains would have more play value than just simulating the grade. Might be because almost all of my favorite rail fanning location are steep grades and helper districts.....DaveB

Yup. I intentionally designed-in a steep grade. (I too, like trains/helpers facing actual tonnage issues) My grade is of meaningful length (55' of grade) on my 137' mainline. Further, I am in the process of weighting the cars (rolling stock) for even more grade impact.

I love it. With most "tonnage" trains, you CAN make the grade with the standard sets of power (when running diesels), however, there ARE those times that a supposedly "tonnage" train will stall (little more weight in the car combo, etc), and then you have a stalled train to deal with. My operating crews have never faced this on a model railroad previous to mine, and they love it.

When I run steam, helpers are mandatory on all freights. That too, was a desired consequence.

In all, actual restrictions are working great and is sooo much more fun than the contrived "restrictions" I've had to employ on my previous layouts.

The above strictly FWIW.

Andre

 

 

 

Kansas City & Gulf: Ozark Subdivision, Autumn of 1964
 
The "Mainline To The Gulf!"
Reply 0
David Husman dave1905

Option C

The option that allows a continuous run without worrying about reverse loops and lining switches while continuous running.  It would only be used during continuous running operations, not during "normal" operations.

Model3.png 

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index:  Dave Husman Blog Index

Reply 0
laming

Continuous Running...

Dave:

I have always had provisions for continuous running on my layouts since my first layout back in the early-mid 60's.

However, ever since becoming more serious about "operation" (mid-70s), I don't use the continuous provisions for operational "sessions", and really, I haven't used them much for just "running". However, in spite of the contInuous running ability I intentionally designed into my current layout (and I'm glad that ability exists), I have only used that feature a few times thus far.

Best of luck in whatever you decide.

Andre

 

Kansas City & Gulf: Ozark Subdivision, Autumn of 1964
 
The "Mainline To The Gulf!"
Reply 0
jTrackin

@bok   it sort of makes sense

@bok   it sort of makes sense but in small spaces I believe around the room or can be end to end so no door way lift up. But dogbone style is to me uncomfortable with that huge space in the middle it has a crowded feel. You could say have a hole in the middle where you get up in, but you'd as might as well have a liftup.

There is nothing better than working on a project or talking to a friend and having your trains  meandering around the layout.

James B

Reply 0
BOK

Hi James. If you are

Hi James.

If you are referring to the sketch I posted ...you're right.

Look carefully at the sketch and you will see that the track work is in two different rooms. The room to the left with the wye is the jct. between the short line and the main line carrier. The room to the right (through the wall) is the mechanical/shop room where all the staging/reversing of main line trains is performed and is not sceniced or needs to be. It's merely the place where trains go "off stage".

Yes, before the loops in the mechanical room I had a drop down bridge and simple ovals...but it was a pain to use so I modifed it.  

I'll try to include a photo of the staging/shop room.

Thanks, for your comments.

Barry

05557(1).jpg 

Reply 0
Chris VanderHeide cv_acr

No hidden switches

Quote:

The option that allows a continuous run without worrying about reverse loops and lining switches while continuous running.  It would only be used during continuous running operations, not during "normal" operations.

Not bad.

I for one am not a fan of arrangements featuring hidden switches (other than staging yard ladders) and/or crossings that would be actively used for different routes. Recipe for derailments, collisions, or other disasters.

Since this connection would never be used in "real" operations, and only to continuous run when showing the layout (whether for open house or just for friends) this could work well since no one would actually be changing the switch position in operation.

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