Marc

 

MHR forum is a great source for electronics help and advice and for DCC

Some of us are really great teacher to help and to share some easy circuits which are extremely helpful, easy to build and affordable by the most of us.

I assume not all of us are electronic technician, so the way it works need to be simple and affordable for the most of us.

 

With the help of these great teacher, big step in electronic where shared on the MHR forums, like easy to build detector, Arduino application, servo use.

 

One seems missing, and seems missing everywhere; a study of a electronic block power shields,a breaker which isolate the block in case of a short inside this prefigured block

We all know a simple short is enough to shut down a whole DCC system on the whole layout.

This is the reason we divide our layout in different electrical block, like in the old days of analog control but these block need to be protected alone with breaker  to avoid our DCC central to shut down.

 

So I'm looking for a easy to use design of power shields to protect individually each block.

 

As far I'm concerned, it seems I never see a power shields circuits  for electrical block in DCC  shared on forums.

This power shields, need to shut down only the block where a short occur.

 

I'm not an electronic technician, I have just a border knowledge of it, but may be It could be possible to add some helping features

One is to show, by example on the small shields board which file of track has a problem; this exist on some truck which show where a lamp or a a electrical defect is on the circuit; here it may be could able to  show us if it's the right or left side of the track which has a trouble in the block.

Second, for convenient, it will contain a manual switch, which is able to isolate completely the block to make repairs, or works on the block;  it could include heavy power relay, like car one, since we use some amps now with DCC along the track.

Here is may be a new challenge to explore and share a quiet easy to build and usuable power protection for all of us.

 

Just a suggestion .

On the run whith my Maclau River RR in Nscale

Reply 0
greg ciurpita gregc

power shield?

i don't believe most people will know what you mean by "power shield".   I think a better description would attract more readers

greg - LaVale, MD     --   MRH Blogs --  Rocky Hill Website  -- Google Site

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Ken Rice

DCC Electronic breaker

There’s a DIY online here:  http://www.princeton.edu/~martin/DCC/breaker.html

I don’t know if it’s good or bad, I just found it with google.  Looks reasonable to my very amateur eye.

Reply 0
BNSF-FAN

Why so complicated?

Check these out, from the LK&O. Alan, has done a fantastic job, and I have and DO use these, and have modified it to give trigger outputs, and for use in grade crossings, etc. Neil, if you read this, I have some stuff for you, too. Ok, Neil in Hawaii... but anyone can have it!!!  lol!!!

 

http://www.lkorailroad.com/circuit-breaker-and-block-detector-final-units/

 

Enjoy!!!

Taz...

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Ken Rice

LK&O breakers are not DCC

Those LK&O breakers will not work with DCC, they are designed for straight constant DC track power.  He uses RailPro for control (DC track power with radio control), not DCC -  http://www.lkorailroad.com/rail-pro-arrives-on-the-lko/.

Reply 0
Russ Bellinis

I'm not completely sure what the O.P. is talking about, but if

it is a quick short detector/protector for protecting electrical blocks in dcc, Joe had an write up either in an early issue of MRH or a post here in the forum using a cheap automotive light bulb in a simple circuit.  It was back near the beginning of MRH, but I don't know the title or where to find it exactly.

Reply 0
BNSF-FAN

Ok, I may have failed to say...

I modified them to work, with DCC. I am using digitrax, and my test runs worked fine, ON MY SIGNAL system, I designed. So I have proof they do work.

Sorry for the confusion. I have several things going on today, and it is a bit hectic.

Taz...

 

Reply 0
joef

Do tell

Quote:

I modified them to work, with DCC.

Don't leave us hanging ... what did you do to make them work with DCC?


P.S. Pet peeve -- folks who say "I got it to work ..." and then just leave us hanging. At least promise to give us what you did somehow -- a coming thread, a video, a book -- heck I may even pay money to find out as long as it's a fair price!

Joe Fugate​
Publisher, Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine

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Read my blog

Reply 0
Neil Erickson NeilEr

In Hawaii with baited breath

Interested!!

Neil Erickson, Hawai’i 

My Blogs

Reply 0
BNSF-FAN

HA!!!!

 Gee whiz, Joe! I haven't even got the chance to upload it, and I will. I have too many irons in the fire tonight, and we are getting stomped by storms, so I am being cautious with my computer. Right now, a sever storm is rolling in, an out here in the country, we seem to lose power regularly. When this passes, I will upload it for you to look at.

Like one of my engineering bosses once told me... hold on Taz... cool your jets.... Mild comment about my time in the Air Force....

Take care ya'll..... I'll get it up there soon...

Regards...

Taz...

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BNSF-FAN

HERE, FELLAS. TAKE A GANDER....

 AHHHHHHHH.... POWDERPUFF!!!!!!!

 

HOW DO i UPLOAD A PDF FILE. i CAN'T REMEMBER HOW I DID IT LAST TIME...  SEE??!?!?? OLD TIMERS DISEASE IS SETTING IN!!! YOU'LL BE HERE SOON, JOE!!! LOL!!!

GIVE ME AN EMAIL ADDY,  OR SOMEONE GIVE THIS LAME BRAIN A NUDGE WITH HOW IT SHOULD BE DONE... PLEASE??

THANKS!!

 

TAZ...

Reply 0
BNSF-FAN

I'll try again....

[attach:fileid=425933_14_fuvde9+691737r3X/9k=]

Reply 0
BNSF-FAN

A few things to note...

these are open Drain/ Collector circuit outputs.Add a pull-up resistor, from the 5VCC, OR WHAT EVER power source you have. Watching your current of course. I use the output to drive each block, plus, each control point. With my design for signals, it allows me a simple "or" gate, allowing it to be used to drive longer wire, or cable connections, between ATC, and CTC signal controllers. I will be explaining this in more detail, WITH video, and other pictures as I continue on my blog.

more to come...

Taz...

Reply 0
Ken Rice

Detector or breaker?

Taz, that’s a little fuzzy and I’m not sure what a couple of the boxes are, but I think that’s a block detector, not an electronic breaker, right?

Reply 0
ACR_Forever

Umm, could you please

upload a higher resolution image?

Blair

Reply 0
BNSF-FAN

Upload...

I'' address both comments here... It IS a detector, and my apologies, if ya'll wanted the breaker. I was answering a question about a detector circuit I modified. Joe, you should fins this one operable, and it has added features to help with triggers, and other interfaces. This is NOT a self design. I took features from other circuits, and added things that made it more efficient for my personal use. I thought it might be helpful.

I use the simple car bulb fuse, and such for my DCC. It is simple, it works, I can live with that, in this day of high prices.

Send me your email address, and I will send you a full size document. it is a pdf  and is ledger size.

I have a circuit board mask's if you need them, also.

 

Taz...

Reply 0
joef

Thanks

Thanks for the details! P.S. I’m fine if you post you have a clever solution — and then say you'll be providing the details eventually. I can wait patiently for a long time if I know more detail will be coming eventually. I get that we can have a lot of irons in the fire. It’s the “I fixed it” post with no details — and with no mention you'll ever tell us any details. That’s like, “you’re just trying to torture us, right?”

Joe Fugate​
Publisher, Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine

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Read my blog

Reply 0
Ken Rice

Breaker

Yup this thread is about breakers.  The LK&O circuit you posted a link to was both a breaker and a detector, but for the railpro constant dc power.  I guess we all focus on the part we’re more interested in - breaker or detector 

Reply 0
ianm42

Merg District Cutout

The Merg group have a design for a District Cut-Out (DCO) that will do all you ask for. You need to pay to become a member, but then you will have access to a whole world of electronics for model railways. You can get all the documentation for the District Cut-Out to source your own components and build one, or it is available as a complete kit for less than the cost of buying individual components (as Merg can get discounts for bulk purchasing). Current price of kit 57 to members is £10.93 (GBP) plus postage.

The DCO can be built to trip at either 1.5 or 3 Amps (selectable by a jumper), or 0.7 or 1.5 Amp by adding an extra loop through the detection coil. The Cutout delay can be selected by jumpers to allow for frog juicers, etc, downstream to operate without causing a cutout. A firmware upgrade from that supplied in the kit will allow for the Railcom messaging to be passed through to an upstream detector. Terminals are provided for an external sounder and LED indicator, and for an external 'kill' switch to isolate the district. There is also a by-pass terminal to isolate the DCO in case of failure, or a short term need for a higher current to be passed.

https://www.merg.org.uk

I have built 7 of these, for 4 separate layouts so far. I am just an ordinary, but satisfied member of Merg.

 

Reply 0
Geoff Bunza geoffb

@Taz re: Unreadable Diagram

Hi Taz,

To be a bit more to the point, the diagram you posted is unreadable.

Have fun! 
Best regards,
Geoff Bunza

Geoff Bunza's Blog Index: https://mrhmag.com/blog/geoff-bunza
More Scale Model Animation videos at: https://www.youtube.com/user/DrGeoffB
Home page: http://www.scalemodelanimation.com

Reply 0
joef

Taz

Taz, email your PDF to office@mrhmag.com and we'll post it for you with a link to it. The image you posted is not readable.

Joe Fugate​
Publisher, Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine

[siskiyouBtn]

Read my blog

Reply 0
BNSF-FAN

Thank you, Joe!

lol!! Thanks for making me smile this morning!I will NEVER say something, and not follow through. But, of course, you feel the same way most of us think,, when it comes to something new, or potentially less expensive, and simple. I believe in the "KISS" principle... "Kepp it SIMPLE, silly!". I don't think I am above ANYONE, and probably get more excited, than most. If you remember, I was that excited when I decided to make these. I really didn't want to be a business, but, wanted to help others, in the pursuit of our dreams of making our layouts, as real looking as possible. I feel this way, and always have.

I am a very giving, and gracious individual. i am NOT above anyone, nor condescending, to anyone. No question is stupid, and I LOVE a good cut up, and sense of humor.  All I want, is to give back, to those who have helped me, and been there, when I was not able to figure something out.

Please forgive me about all of the "I"'s. It was the only way I could say it correctly.

I deeply appreciate all of you .... GRUMPY AND ALL!!! lol!!!!

God Bless!!!

 

Taz...

Reply 0
Marc

Already shared but

 

The link has already been shared, but this is the page.

These are quiet easy to build it seems to me.

Anyway cheaper than the market ones, I probably go this way, knowing I need quiet a lot for my N scale project.

http://www.lkorailroad.com/circuit-breaker-and-block-detector-final-units/

 

On the run whith my Maclau River RR in Nscale

Reply 0
Ken Rice

LKO design does not work with DCC

Marc, if I remember right I believe you use DCC?  The LKO breaker/detector design at that link does not work with DCC.

Reply 0
bgennette

DCC Breaker - Shorts Handling - Technical Description

Old thread but...

I've been researching this and am about to build and test.  In the meantime here are the results of my studies.  First an overview, then the details (in additional posts) -

1)  Detection - very low current is NOT a priority and triggering at exactly 10mA over the setpoint is an unrealistic requirement for a DCC Circuit Breaker (a short will go well over the setpoint).  Current Transformer type detectors provide complete electrical isolation and are easily accurate enough for a Breaker and so for this task can be simplified and made user adjustable to a trip point that applies to each protected District.

2)  Power Source - 20 to 100mA at 12 volts or so is required to operate MosFet power transistors, polarity switching relays and microcontrollers.  This is best taken from the DCC Booster input to the Circuit Breaker; this allows easy installation at any (remote) point on a layout.  [Z scale at 9V Direct Current into a Booster appears on the Rails as a Differential 18V, so 12V is available from even the smallest of scales]

3)  Interacting with DCC - The Differential DCC signal is a constantly swapping voltage applied to the Rails.  DCC Decoders use 2 (or 4) diodes to create a local 'floating' zero volts and a 'floating' positive voltage above that; this is NOT useful for a DCC Circuit Breaker.  A circuit to break the DCC must somehow remain permanently 'linked' to the DCC signal, here's how its done -

Any electrical storage device (capacitor) connected BETWEEN the Rails AND isolated by a SINGLE diode from one of the Rails will store voltage "relative to the volts value of the other Rail".  The volt level stored on the capacitor is therefore LINKED to the volt level on one DCC Rail.

That is - if Rail A is at zero volts then Rail B will be at +X volts.  A diode connected from Rail B allows a capacitor to charge up to [+X (- diode drop)] volts relative to a direct connection to Rail A.  (A current limiting resistor reduces inrush current so that charging takes about 0.5s at first switch on).  Thanks to the diode isolating the positive side of the capacitor from Rail B (once charged) the relationship between the voltage on the capacitor positive side and the voltage at Rail A will be held constant (that's what capacitors do).

When Rail A is at zero volts the isolated capacitor positive voltage will be at [+X (-diode drop)] volts (Rail B at +x volts) and
when Rail A jumps to +X volts the isolated capacitor positive voltage will be instantly pushed up to [+X + +X (-diode drop)] volts (Rail B at zero volts is blocked out by the isolating diode).

Rail B voltage is irrelevent; the isolated capacitor positive voltage above Rail A voltage is ALWAYS [+X (-diode drop)] volts so any components placed between the isolating diode and Rail A are in a plain Direct Current circuit.  This whole sub system will appear to us dumb humans to be jumping by +X at the DCC data rate, but to any components in the sub system it is always just plain, non jumping, Direct Current.

The storage can be done both ways at once to create 2 'linked', isolated voltages, but they MUST NOT be connected together !  The MERG Breaker uses this in order to monitor voltage drop across a 0.22 ohm resistor in both DCC busses.

4)  Breaking DCC - Relays are NOT a good idea; several amps at more than 20 volts WILL burn the contacts and this will create unacceptable resistance quite quickly and stop working very soon.

Using a cheap N-Channel MosFet power transistor rated well over the DCC power levels is easy, BUT will only cut off half of each DCC Differential signal because the body of every MosFet is a reverse conducting diode.  Using 2 N-Channel MosFets back-to-back WILL break DCC, but the driver circuit for 2 directions is complicated and costly, UNLESS there is a power source [10 volt higher than the signal to be brocken] available ... like described above ...

All that is required is to use the isolating trick twice, once to collect power onto a storage capacitor to drive the MosFets when the Linked Rail is at zero volts and once again, from the stored voltage, to a second isolated capacitor to drive them when the Rail is at +X volts.  The isolated capacitor actually driving the MosFets is called a 'bootstrap'.

5)  Passing Signals between normal DC and the [isolated Bootstrap capacitor] DC - Use an opto coupler.  The voltages each side of the opto are irrelevent; each side just works in its local DC circuit passing signals between them with light (that's what opto couplers do).  Isolating Transformers may also be used but they require Alternating Current and are both more complicated and more expensive.

6)  Controller - almost any modern microcontroller will do.  With the adition of a 5V (or 3.3V) regulator a controller can connect to the isolated DC Linked to one DCC Rail described above.  I'll be presenting an Arduino Uno based solution in a later post.

7)  Beyond Breaking - Short circuits ain't always plain short circuits.  Stay-Alives and the large storage capacitors on sound decoders are just temporary high demand devices at start-up.  Lower power Boosters may require help when powering-up multiple Trains, a smart Detect-Charge-Break-Pause-Repeat sequence WILL help.  Automatic polarity changers for turnouts react to short circuits deliberately caused by crossing gaps in Rails; these can swap the polarity of both Rails (Loop Reversing) or joined Rails (Frog Juicing).

8)  Polarity Reversing -  2 Current Transformers and 4 pairs of N-Channel MosFet power transistors with opto couplers and bootstrap capacitors can be used to change polarity; NCE does this on its PSX Reverser, and so does TXX on their Power Shield.  But it is not really necessary.

A microcontroller can Break DCC in less than 1ms and a relay with no power on its switching contacts can changeover in less than 10ms; with safety delays this means cheap mechanical changeover in 25ms or less, plenty fast enough (1 / 40 s).  If Breaking DCC to both Rails is really necessary then for DIY 2 Breaker circuits and a relay module will be cheaper (high volume buyers will get significantly lower prices so they may go other ways).

Ordinary relays switching with no load have an average endurance of over 2 million cycles,  That's once a minute for 4 years !!!

9)  Modular Construction - For DIY it makes sense to build simple, cheap, universal modules and combine them in various ways to create complete devices.

I intend to create individual Breaker modules (with optional Current Transformer Detector and 5V regulator) that will connect to an Arduino Uno shield (that I will also create).  For Frog juicing or Loop Reversing dual Relay modules ($2 on eBay) may be connected to the Shield and to the Breaker output.
 Additional outputs from the Shield (and / or through the Breaker modules) may connect remote indicator LEDs, annunciators, Manual Reset switches or (via external opto couplers) Layout Control systems.


stay tuned ...
 

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