Why?

Do I forget to sign? Morgan Bilbo, PRR modeler 1952

Hmm,  this discussion is

Hmm,  this discussion is going well.

Well...

…  I didn't exactly see a question there, just some observations on Morgan's part.

For me, since Joe published his "Polar/Non-Polar" chart, I've switched to using mineral spirits in a CMX track cleaner car, followed by a boxcar with a pad underneath (commercial - Bachmann, I think).  I also have a Centerline track cleaning "machine" that I intend to put into service behind the CMX unit, which has been suggested before.  And light use of the graphite on switch points.  This system works well for me.

And on the occasion that I need to "scrub" the rails, I use a Cratex block, which is a super fine (much, much finer than a standard "Bright Boy" track cleaning block).  It polishes the rails, and doesn't scratch them.

https://www.cratex.com/Products/Rubber-Abrasives/Blocks-and-Sticks/Oblong-Sticks

Al Carter, Mount Vernon, WA

I use the Bar Mills jar of no-ox.

Once and done. Most cleaning agents cause the black gunk that they were supposed to be cleaning. I used to clean track weekly and rolling stock wheels every 6 months. Now I run trains instead of cleaning track first. 

Piggy backing on Shawns's post

I too am a fan of the No Ox. So much so I started a threaded on it

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/the-no-ox-thread-12189685

No OX

Yes I'm too a fan of No OX, this is a professional stuff so we can expect good result.

Art Fahie, of Blair Line introduced it a long time ago for his N scale layout.

The trick is to wipe it very slightly on the head of the rail; a tissue impregnate  of "No OX" and wiped on the head of the rail is far enough, minimum is the best for our train use; let dry "No OX3 one or two day and run again your train…..I will run like a charm !

I know everybody has his own way to clean track, and each of us prefer to use this method or this method.

I use "No OX" from a long time ago now,  after the use of the "classic" way of clean track, and following my  own experience "No OX" seems to be the most durable trick I have used.

Knowing I will have for sure pro and con's of No OX or about my following method, I just would say It works for my N scale use, and it's durable, since it go largely over one year without any need of cleaning track, the last time I have do it was in 2017 I believe  and sincerely, I not believe I will need to do it soon; the only reason could be the layout is not in use from a while because of my move from Europe to Quebec.

Here are some of my  reflections after maintenance during a 45 years period:

Dad was my teacher for many things about my train knowledge and because he was a civilian engineer, he had a special technical approach about train.

45 years ago good electrical contact was obtained by clean surface and by  the polished way to obtain clean surface; this way  was for him in scale with the little train,  specially N scale where he introduced me at the very beginning existence of the scale.

I avoid as far as possible any  heavy mechanicals process which include filling, sanding or other heavy attack to the track; this is really not necessary if you use good products and follow an always "polishing" approach to clean track.

We have tomorrow excellent products which can act as  real anti oxidized process.

I prefer to follow this way in place of mechanicals approach, because there are some after fact of the mechanicals approach which can be problematic in the future ; scratching the files of the track is one.

Avoid to use as far as possible heavy kind of sand paper or Bright boy to clean track, because the small scratch in the rail are suffisant to keep dirt and the famous gump which is a nightmare for electrical continuity, don't use heavy tools to try to polish or keep back clean oxidized  track parts, like files, screw driver, a dremel with a sand pads

Don't use heavy solvent like acetone, and similar one, they are not safe for the plastic parts of the track and really not necessary to clean track; white spirit or alcool do the job as fine.

I used first white spirits with excellent results, but time evolding I have try to find more specified products.

I have had  excellent result by using WD40 as a cleaning agent, It's important to know there are many different kind of WD40, one is really a special contact cleaner.

Even with the use of "No OX", a day comes the track  need to be clean up unfortunately, but you can avoid this a long time if you clean regularly wheels of locomotives and cars and about cars use only metallic wheels;  plastic ones are a factor to bring gump on the track

Cleaning track is for me a step by step job; first you need to vacuum the track; for difficult reaching part like some tunnel, a rolling vacuum car is an excellent tool, mine is a Model Lux vacuum car extremely powerful and DCC ready; I run it often in freight main train.

Cleaning the rail head  of the track remain a big job.

I divide the job by a running process, by using a running train and by hand using a stick with different pads similar of the one offered by WS

I have done a real cleaning train for my N scale layout, I ended by his consist just by reading thread about cleaning track; he is heavy, but I use severals powered units to run it.

The drying cars which have tissue pads are two old big DB diesel frame, which I have modified to support the drying support tissue pad.

I use this train  to clean my mainline, siding, branch line and yard; for the industrial spurs and small track I use hand pad with a stick ; I use only white spirit and now the WD40 to clean my  track.

My cleaning train has a real consist of working cars and locomotives ; this include CMX cars,homemade drying pads car made from old locomotives frames, locomotive power with old Kato F7 ABA set  and two  Model Lux polishing car

The consist is front a  CMX   car full of WD40 contact cleaner, following by a homemade drying car with a sliding tissue pad from a running DB locomotive frame,  followed by a second CMX car full of WD40, a  second DB locomotive frame drying pad, a Model lux polishing car, a old set of ABA Kato F7 locomotives, again a CMX car, a simple pad drying  car and a Model Lux polishing car to finish the train.

The train run in a consist dcc controlled.

I regulate  the fluid flow of the CMX to the minimum possible, it's not necessary to put a lot of fluid.

I allow this train to run all along the main two or three time back and forth, the drying pads are regularly changed like the pads of the CMX car.

This,  including  all the manual cleaning of track, is  a one day job.

When my track is clean and shiny again, "No OX" is put again along the track, I use the same old tissues from years to do the job and wipe a very very  small amount of "No OX" on the rail heads, this tissue is become himself like "No OX"; the stick pads are used to put "No OX"  on bridges and small track; I don't try to put it in tunnel the cars and locomotives by running put some "No OX" on these track., let it dry a few hours before running trains.

I'm so happy with "No OX" I lightly wipe  it on track which is just lay; I don't wait to have oxidized track, when my track is ballasted and painted, I clean the top of the rails as usual and I put very lightly "No OX"  as a preventive action; this don't allow the top of the track to be oxidize quickly.

I can confirm, this job is done around every 18 months, may be more, but I must admit I also run often my train which include severals cars with sliding pads à la John Allen.

The layout, when not in use is covered to protect him from dust; no dust production is allowed in the layout room; I firmly believe this also help to keep clean track longer.

My point turnout are  all electrical live one, I use Fastrack  turnouts, live point and frog are for me a necessity in N scale, the code 55 for the old parts of the layout has been modified to have alive point and frog.

I have also used some times ago the graphite trick on some lone track with good results, I don't ask to use it on main because of the grade problems and slipping possible issue, but it's work well for sure.

No Ox

My comments come from someone with more than 30 years in the trucking industry.

No Ox to me, after reading all the countless threads of track cleaners/cleaning, is in my sole opinion a great product...if used correctly.  I use No Ox A on all of my vehicle/lawn mower/outdoor light connections.  And I only just started using No Ox A.  After reading JoeFs chart and the rest of you talking about electric conectivity.

Part of why I post this..goes back to my time around trucks.  There is a product similar to No Ox...but for metal treatment..called MotorKote.  It treats/coats the metal to reduce friction.  Been used in the trucking world for over 30 years.

Like No Ox...MotorKote doesnt get the attention it should.  Just a guess...products that work and save you money...are shunned by all...so they can make more money.

This was meant to be an open discussion

Hi! I started this to promote new ideas. For years we had bright boys and alcohol and such. Now we have far more sophisticated things to try. That's why I didn't pose a question. What we need are good ideas with common sense that someone has tried and that works. Please remember that what works for one person will not work for another. We live in different climates and humidity and such is a huge factor. No-Ox sounds great, and I'm sure it is. BUT: Somewhere above I read where it's permanent. ? i.e. You can not remove it?  I'm sorry, but that don't sound too great to me. I mentioned that I use acetone. Only because I had been using alcohol and found I didn't like the smell, and it evaporated too fast. When JF came out with his info on Polar, I thought about what else to use. My goal is K.I.S.S. Another factor is how large the layout is. For me, it's a shelf that I can reach every rail easily - so that's far different than a 200 foot layout where you "must have" track cleaning cars, etc. But my main thrust is to find out what y'all do use and how it works and that enables us all to learn a bit more and can then make intelligent decisions on what we may or may not change to - OR avoid. Like I said, I'd avoid No-Ox if it is permanent. And can you use graphite on top of it? Those kind of questions do arise. The goal should be to keep an open mind and think about all the choices and decide for ourselves what we can do. Another slight example: On a shelf layout, a track cleaning car or long handled tool are not necessary. On a large layout, those tools are needed. Some liquids are better than others, and some may have odors or such that affect a person. So come on back with good ideas and suggestions and I hope you realize I'm not closing my mind to any idea. And you shouldn't either.

I don't think the reference to being permanent is correct.

The poster who suggested that it was permanent speaks English as a second language and is not familiar with subtle meanings of words.  What I think he meant was that he could use No Ox once a year, or even less often and his track stayed clean for a year or longer.  I don't think he was intending to suggest that No Ox was permanent in the sense that it could not be removed.  I'm not sure what would remove it or why you would want to remove it, but I'm sure that there is something that would remove it if you wanted to.  

@ Russ Bellinis

Unfortunately, no treatment is permanent.

I use "No OX" since many years, it seems very durable in efficiency and this is confirmed by anyone which has try it.

Unfortunately after a time, for me around one or two years, the treatment need to be upgraded.

I have found is better to clean up the track before to put a new layer of "No OX"

I used before white spirits and it worked well like alcool, also because these two products don't alter plastic and colors.

Like I said in my previous  answer, I don't use any "scratching or heavy" treatment to my track, just a polishing way, meaning, I use only tissues to clean my track.

"No OX", as mentioned is under a form of paste like grease, somewhat tacky in the new use, but it's easy to clean it and remember a very very little quantities is necessary for our rails use; see my previous answer about that.

Now I use WD40 contact cleaner kind of, it dissolve easily the very fine previous deposit put on my head rails; remember I model in N scale, a very little is nearly too much, but this is the same for other scale, a tissue impregnated with "No OX" is enough to be wiped on the heads of the rails

The cleaning train I use remove all the previous deposit with ease in one or two passing; the polishing Model Lux car do a great job to make the track head shine after the clean up.

Like any treatment is important to have a very clean head of the rails

This is the time to wipe on the "NO OX" new deposit.

But the permanent aspect of "No OX" is for sure 18 months , may be more; a good test to come is the opening box which contains my layout which hasn't run from more than 8 months because of my move in Canada.

And after all the thread about the subject the answer are always the same with the users of "No OX"; this is easily testable in all the thread speaking about "No OX"

- Better electricity continuity on the layout directly visible after the treatment.

- Nearly no more stalling locomotives even in the less used track

- Durability, always more than any other trick

- Recommended since Linn Westcott in the 50's  as the one of the best treatment.

Sandflex Block

I followed the advice from helpful posts about six months ago regarding track cleaning. I changed methods to thorough cleaning, then CRC-Cleaner Protectorant (Green Can) and rubbed on with cotton cloth.

I have only used "fine" Sandflex Block  for cleaning track. A Bright Boy is too coarse.

Any slow or stalling problems went away.

I don't buy this.

I have a degree in Electronics. Rail is nothing more than wire. I understand that our locomotives wheels only contact the rail on a very small point on the rail. Micro-scratches etc, and blah blah blah will have a very minimal effect on DCC conductivity. I use a Brite boy exclusively, and run DCC with Digitrax decoders and an NCE Powercab. I have had zero problems after cleaning my track.
The biggest problem I have had is when I use a cleaner and then something akin to rail zip. The wheels on my locomotives pick up the gunk off the rails then I have to clean all the drivers on all my locomotives, and honestly this causes 10 times more problems than using a brite boy.
The best thing you can do is put a stay alive circuit in your engines to cross over any dirty rail, open circuit situations.

Rail Zip

The instructions on my (old) bottle of Rail Zip say to wipe it off with a damp rag after application.

If you’ve cleaned the track...

If you really have cleaned the track, there would be no gunk on it for wheels to pick up.  

Don't use abrasive as far as possible

I never use any abrasive device to clean my track, this was first a dad advice, but time has show me it's really better to no do it.

I forget to mention in my previous answer to this thread an excellent example why  using abrasive treatment to clean track is not a good way to go.

I have already say I'm an iron worker, I have had my own little company in Belgium about ironworks and now I have a job of analyst of industrial quality  soldering job here in Canada for agreement.

Here come my example about the consequences of abrasive job;

When we work with inoxydable, you have three way to weld  it, using the simple arc method or the Tig or Mig procedure  which include  gaz atmosphere   to protect the welding job.( robot use gaz atmosphere all the time)

The arc method is the simplest use but this one  has a lot of consequences about oxidized inoxydable which really rust after a while because of inclusion of oxygen and carbon in the metal assembly.

Many welding  job need a grinder job after to minimalise the solder point.

With inoxydable for a professional finish you must use special grinder disk and avoid to use them for any other job than inoxydable.

Why, when you grid inoxydable, you include carbon particules in the scratch, dirt from the disk grinder;  this carbon is included in the welding spot when you weld  the inoxydable because heat  allow it to go out of the metallic atomic structure.

So when you grid a weld spot, you include more carbon to the surface, this carbon allow rusting effect on inoxydable which is the same as iron; to avoid this, the inox need to receive after the welding and  grinding job a acid treatment to avoid any carbon and dirt  particles to be on the surface, surface need to be polished.

We can't use any acid to have a clean job to destroy any microscopic inclusion which are in the scratch.

I tell you this example because when you use abrasive on nickel silver, you include in the scratch  like on my inox example,  numerous different kind of dirt in the scratch which are in our rail case microscopic but they exist; in fact you include more dirt in the metallic assembly in a form of way, this allow also the famous gump to have a real fixing point

Even if you use often the bright boy or similar abrasive device, you don't bring a solution to the cleaning of the track, you just displace the problem in time, meaning in a few months you must come back with the abrasive job.

This is why I never had used any abrasive form of work to clean up my track, but only the use of non abrasive device, wiping, polishing and some chemicals or solvent cleaner to help.

Sure when you have used the bright boy the train run better, not because of the bright boy use, just because the head of the rails are clean; you have just push away the surface dirt and  push away the oxidized.

Sorry but the track is not clean, you have included in the job, numerous particules which are for the most bad for electrical contact and second which can for the most  regenerate the dirt and oxidized action relatively quickly.

It's also very important to vacuum the track just after a scratching job, but in the time, the gump  on the track is mixed with the bright boy or alike  dust and go in the famous microscopic scratch on the rails, one day or another you will need to polish the head of the rails.

But even you do it in rules, after a while these scratchs are full of dirt; I don't remember the forum but a guy's has done the experiment with a piece of track and shared big microscopic pictures where you can see how much dirt was inserted in these scratch after an abrasive cleaning job; it was amazing !

This at a time produce micro electrical arc between wheels and track, this is confirmed by numerous analysis on forum, even on non train forum about Nickel Silver use for electrical device.

Anyway, if we can clean track we can't stop the oxidized process, here comes all the treatment we speak about it from years, with good, medium or bad results; each of us prefer this way or this way.

To my point of view only graphite and "No OX" are guarantee procedure,  because these have a industrial and scientific background use as a appreciation.

And about wiping solvent or any other product to clean the track, you must dry clean the track before running a train on it; I use "No OX"  and I let it dry one or two day before running any trains

And just a simple question; how many time you can wait before the need to reuse the bright boy job on your track ?

With my never abrasive treatment and  " No OX" treatment I go over 18 months, last time this was in 2017 and until my move and the packaging of my layout in august 2019, my layout was running great,  I have made none treatment to any piece of track during this period and this is in N scale.

Just a few of industrial switching track have received the graphite treatment, it works great too, but slippage on a grade designed layout can be a issue with graphite.

This is my observation since around 30 years of "No OX" use and also a professional background about metallic use and analysis. 

Re: Rail Zip

I have always wondered about that. So you apply the Rail Zip let it stand then wipe off the excess with a WET rag. Seems to me you are taking off what you just put on. Also the new RZ seems to be a lot less effective than the old bottle I had. I am looking at the CRC Conductive cleaner as I have heard great things about that. However that being said, a quick go round with a Brite Boy and my layout will be good to run on for a couple of months.

Outstanding! Thank you.

Finally someone with some knowledge of metal has answered this question for me. Unlike some I am willing to listen when the answer comes from a knowledgeable source. You sir, make some great points. I can see the problem with creating scratches then filling them in with grit and dirt. Much as cleaning solder and wire with alcohol before soldering, cleaning the rail with only a cleaning solution and then an anti-oxidant makes sense. All the other micro scratches discussions seemed to be based on conjecture, but you have made me re-think this issue.

Abrasives for track cleaning

The successful use of abrasives for track cleaning is related to the grit and application force.  Think of abrasives used in our daily lives:  toothpaste and jewelers rouge.  Our teeth and jewelry get polished rather than scratched.  Fine grits with light to moderate force polish the rail heads clean.

Scratches from polishing?

How does burnishing fit into this equation? It would seem to smooth rather than scratch the surface....DaveB

Polishing

When you use a "polishing" work on a surface you use some product which contain a kind of "sand" with an incredible fine granulometry,  which has a very light  and subtle action on the surface; this is the reason why sometimes polishing a surface take time .

But polishing don't include scratch in the work, which are bad for our rail heads.

Using only tissues wet with some cleaner is far enough to clean or track heads and if your rails heads  are heavily oxidized you can come with some polishing agent but don't use a real abrasive like paper grit or bright boy, these device go to far in the scratching way and really damage the head of the rails for numerous reasons discussed here before.

Any agent wiped on the head of the rails like often mentioned "Rail ZIP" need to be dry before you run train, it seems to be an evidence. ( I never used this one).

Like I say everything has a scale, our rail head have a scale, the way we work on them need to have a scale, like the amount of product we wipe on the head, meaning a very little is far enough.

But again, I would no hit anybody and say I have the solution, I just share my experience based on a professional background.

Some of the ways I use to try to keep my track clean have a kind of guarantee because they are recognized by scientist and the industry.

Agree on avoiding abrasives

I'm certainly not an expert, but I'll just say that my experience matches Marc's advice: avoid the use of abrasives.

In N-scale we don't have the luxury of keep-alives that can sustain track voltage for the relatively long durations that are available in larger scales, and locomotives also weigh much less. Consistent electrical pickup from the rail is essential.

My regimen is clean the rail once after installation with increasingly finer abrasives, eventually burnishing the rail. After that it gets a no-ox treatment. Then it is only periodically vacuumed or wiped with a dry cloth, and spot-treated with graphite.

Marc: your earlier post mentioned industrial quality "soldering", but what you're describing regarding carbon etc. suggests you mean "welding" — perhaps something got mixed up in the translation?

@CNscale

GRRRRR, you have right I mean welding; yes my English as some defaults. ( corrected in the previous post)

Yes when you weld two pieces of metal, you first pop up the carbon which is included in the metal, because of the heat, you also bring some in the welding point with the heat produced and the metal apport, no matter if it's steel or inoxydable; this allow a quick reaction with oxygen, this reaction produce corrosion on these metallic surface, it's named rust.

Only a treatment of the welding point avoid the rust to come, for inoxydable, polishing and acid wash of the welding point, but on steel too you need to treat the surface because this hot point is also full of carbon and rust come on  very quickly and  more harder on the welding spot than the rest of the surface; heat is the reason but grinding too.

In my job we like to say "protect quickly the welding spot before it becomes red of angry".

But the grinder work also allow to includes a lot of  impurities in the welding spot; these impurities help to accelerate the process of oxidize of the metallic surface.

About nickel silver which is used to make or rails, I can't affirm  if abrasive help to accelerate the oxidized process, because of the inclusion of oxidized and impurities but for sure this don't help to maintain a clean surface like any other metallic surface; your rails heads shine but they aren't clean for sure.

Like I said previously, everything has a scale, but the impurities produced by the abrasives work blend with the oxidized of the metal and all the famous gump in a microscopic layer which stay on the rail.

The answer is the reality, all bright boy clean work are not durable like any abrasive cleaning work.

But polishing work even with the aid of some cleaner are in any case more durable this is a matter of fact.

"No OX" again seems more durable after a polishing work than an abrasive one; it seems the use of graphite end with the same conclusions.

Scratched rail are good home and attach to numerous microscopic impurities, knowing which seems microscopic in 1/1 scale  is already great in a scaled train, gump is never over with abrasive for sure.

So you have right, avoid to use abrasive to clean track it's really a non sense and a very bad finality process.

It's very simple. "Polishing"

It's very simple.

"Polishing" turns a few big scratches into a lot of little ones.

It's very simple. "Polishing"

It's very simple.

"Polishing" turns a few big scratches into a lot of little ones.