Shims

I have read in various places that some people use very thin shims on the axle ends to help mitagate the excess movement within the truck frams...not sure if they were a Kaadee product or not

I sense a book plug incoming.

I sense a book plug incoming.

Book plugs aren't bad

I don't mind a book plug if the book is full of good info.  I'm not a fan of books that are nothing but reprints of previously published articles unless that is highlighted on the cover, but new stuff that is solid, fine.  Plug away.

Janet N.

Shims on conical surfaces?

Since most rolling stock trucks seem to have conical indentations for the axles to sit in, I'm a bit baffled at how to create shims for those sideframes that will leave the axles centered within and still eliminate side-to-side slop.  Any ideas?

Janet N.

Thank you for the replies I

Thank you for the replies

I don't know where I would get shims in a cone shape to fit inside the truck ?

They would have to be cone shape inside and out or they would bind the wheel set, they would also have to seat into the truck perfectly .

Really wasn't looking to buy any books as my wife was layed off last month and money is tight.

Thanks guy's,       I'll figure it out.  

T.C.

Side play?

  For me it's a seat of the pants decision. Does the car roll well and do the axles stay centered enough to not cause the car to lean. Different manufactures use different length axles so a selection of wheel sets with different length axles is the way to go. I haven't modeled in HO for years but Reboxx at one time sold wheelsets with choice of axle lengths so one could try different lengths in a car until you found what length worked best....DaveB

Washer

It would have to be a circular disk or washer affixed to the truck axle hole, so the axle is riding on that surface as a bearing. But Joe recommends outright replacement.

The Book Plug

The expected book plug is for Joe Fugate's Make it Run Like a Dream:Rolling Stock ( https://store.mrhmag.com/store/p147/ebook/run-like-a-dream-rolling-stock.html) 

Although... I don't know if this question is addressed. I do know a lot of other stuff regarding trucks and wheelsets is. 

Yep, it's addressed

MAKE IT RUN LIKE A DREAM: ROLLING STOCK

Yep, I address it ... in  fact, I devote parts of about 4 pages to discussing this issue, why it's a problem, and how to correct it. A sample page spread here includes axle lengths of common replacement wheelsets and wheelset axle lengths for common truck sideframes.

I also discuss different ways to measure truck sideframe slop and how much slop is okay. The rule of thumb for side-to-side wheelset slop is half the flange width, or for HO, 0.015". That's ONE Kadee red washer, just so you know -- it's not much. Just enough to allow the wheelset to roll freely and not much more.

Just look at the NMRA's wheelset standard S4.2, look up T, the flange width for your scale, and divide by 2:

I also discuss various solutions: tiny washers over the axles to take out slack or just replacing the sideframes.

My recommendation? Replace the truck sideframes. Accurail sells just truck sideframes, and if you talk to Intermountain, they will sell you *just* empty truck sideframes in bulk if you want. Intermountain told me that directly when I spoke with them.

P.S. On trucks with three wheelsets, the middle wheelset *needs* more side-to-side slop. As long as the end wheelsets have the minimal side-to-side slop, the middle wheelset needs at least double that for best tracking on tighter model curves.

when is too much?

after seeing a large variations in my trucks i went thru them all to see if i could improve any.    some seemed to roll uphill.

my approach was to put a piece of 3' flex track on a board with a screw at one end that i could adjust to measure the grade the truck would roll on.  i had a chart matching the number of turns to grade

while i could significantly improve some trucks by lubricating and tuning, others were more problematic and i was satisfied that all trucks would roll down at least a 2% grade.

i also wondered what is the expected performance of a loco.   part of that answer is what is the expected resistance of a train.   I was able to measure the pull for of 30 cars which we estimated to weigh 4 oz each ( nmra standard for a 6" car).   the pull force was ~2.4oz or what you would expect on a 2% grade (2% of 30 * 4)

that force will be worst thru curves, turnouts and of course up grades

so tuning your truck to roll on a 2% grade is probably a minimum

Thank you all for the

Thank you all for the replies, this gives me enough information to figure out what's next going forward.

I had no idea there were so many different wheel and truck widths, one would think there would be standards for these things ?

Again thanks for the replies !

T.C.

Lube?

I was wondering if lubing axles would attract more dirt and eventual wear but I have lubed a few squeaky loco trucks. Any ideas? All my rolling stock cars run dry after a Journal Cleaner used.   

Graphite

I have lubed a few axle tips with dry graphite powder - and indeed it does help. But dry graphite won't attract dirt, so that's not a problem.

But before resorting to graphite, I always use a journal reamer tool.

.

  Nevermind .... old school doesn't play well here ....

I've found that Athearn

I've found that Athearn sideframes and Intermountain wheels are not a good combination.  The Athearn sideframes are too wide, which means too much slop.  Accurail sideframes are much better.

On the last Intermountain car I bought (MILW ribside boxcar), it came with Accurail sideframes... 

The older IM sideframes were just horrible.  I had assembled a 60' boxcar, and after all that work to have it derail on straight track by doing little more than looking at it...The worst part was the goofy bolster design that prevented any easy truck replacement.

Again thanks for the

Again thanks for the replies:

I e-mailed Intermountian the other day and have recieved "NO" responce ? (I'll give it a few day's)

I was taking Joe's advice and sticking with the same manufacturer for both wheels and sideframes. But, from what Mike is saying I would be better off to go with the Accurail sideframes  ?

If all measures as posted that would leave a .010 side play in the trucks and that's alot better than the .030 -.035 I have now ?

Has anyone ever narrowed the Tichy sideframes ? Does anyone use Tichy trucks? That's the look I really wanted but there aren't many company's making them.

This is what happens when I don't do my homework before I buy, although in this case Santa bought the wheelsets. lol

T.C.

TC...

What Mark said up there. ^^^

IF there's a problem, carefully stressing inward or outward on the Athearn/MDC truck side frames to the desired clearance will fix it.

Andre

Wheel alignment

One thing you want to be absolutely sure of, no matter how you achieve it (bending, reaming, replacing...) is that the wheels on both axles in a truck are directly inline with each other, so when you set the truck on the track, the flanges sit perfectly parallel to the rails.  If the wheels on one axle are not inline with the wheels on the other axle, the truck will sit a little skewed, and the flanges will not be parallel to the rails, which will make them more likely to get into trouble at points, frogs, joints, and other minor defects.

KaDee Wheels for Athearn Trucks

I also found that Intermountain wheel axles were too tight in Athearn trucks.

I found that KaDee wheels are a good fit for Athearn trucks.  This combination gives me the lowest rolling resistance for Athearn cars.

FYI , I did hear from

FYI , I did hear from Intermountian this morning and they said they would sell the sideframes seperate.

They wanted to know what "TON"  was looking to buy (50-70 or 100) before they could quote me a price.

So all is good there.

As for bending the sideframes , I would be afraid of getting them off center or skewed as there is no real way to control the bend's and no way be be sure it's on center.

I think for my other trucks Atheran, MDC ect.... I wiil buy the JB wheel sets that fit properly.

T.C.

Bending

Bending might work for a while, but if you measure the side frame spacing months after the "bending therapy," bet they are just as they came out of the box.  Many plastics have a fair amount of memory.  Better to find a wheelset that rolls smoothly as is.

Many many years ago, during an overhaul of the club's fleet of freight cars, a couple of geniuses decided to separate all the wheels (in all sizes) and all of the trucks for cleaning purposes.  This included pretty much everything from old Central Valley trucks to the latest newest thing.

Took years to get the right axles in the right trucks again.

Not a good solution

The bending of the stiff plastic sideframes to adjust axle side-to-side slop is not a good solution.

1. Wheelsets in the truck can end up not parallel with each other, making the entire truck much more derailment prone. The bending is very imprecise, making this quite likely.

2. Plastic has a "memory" and tends to revert to its original shape over time. The adjustment that was great originally will disappear over time. The only way around this is to permanently stress the plastic almost to the breaking point, which weakens the plastic and can lead to cracks or a permanent failure of the plastic part.

Ken Rice and Graham Line are quite correct in their assessment of this "solution". I call it a hack, frankly.

Best is to just get wheelsets and sideframes that match. Second best is to eliminate the slop with tiny washers on the axles.

I wonder if it's worth

I wonder if it's worth mentioning here as a side note one other method that isn't satisfactory as a general solution, but can be useful in the case of specialized truck designs that are suboptimal for operation in their stock form.  Examples might be cast white metal or brass trucks, or a few types of styrene cast sideframes. I'm talking about Tichy's nylon bearing inserts:

https://www.tichytraingroup.com/Shop/tabid/91/p/3059/Default.aspx

They require drilling the sideframes from the inside to produce a cavity to nest the bearings--so careful trial and error and precise drilling are needed to get the inserts to fit a specific axle length properly. The need to drill means as a rule they're feasible only for trucks on which the sideframes can be separated from the bolsters. But it's a possible way to keep oddball trucks like tender trucks, older passenger car and some caboose trucks in service--and of adjusting trucks to fit the axles of different wheelsets.

Tichy trucks + other wheelsets