Deemiorgos

I'm researching can motors. Does anyone have a preference?

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

Either (whatever you can get)

Dear Deem, Either brand should work a treat, The bigger question is, Which one can you readily get? (between the closure of Hollywood Foundry, and the "momentary hesitation" of NWSL, supply of can motors seems to be a hit-n-miss situation sometimes...) Happy Modelling, Aim to Improve, Prof Klyzlr
Reply 0
txlarr

Lots of Study Required

Deemiorgos,

As usual, the Prof is right on about motors. Another way for me to say that is, "Good Luck on That."   It's my understanding, after lots of searching and reading, Mashima and Sagami are no longer manufactured. The variety of can motor needs as to volts, rpm, size, shafts, diesel vs steam, and such is endless so you need to figure out what your requirements are and then find a motor that meets those needs - not easy. Canon was a recent go to motor brand amongst re-motor modelers  - I've used them in Rivarossi steamers. I can no longer find the right Canons and their cost had really climbed. 

The Repower-Regear Group-io is a place to research on motors. I learned about the Mabuchi SF-266SA in that group and ended up putting them in a couple of my antique Mantua Pacific steamers.  I advised another modeler in another forum about this motor and he put two in a big articulated steamer and followed with lots of testing on that loco in both DC and DCC.  It's his new to go motor now and he  ordered several more. Most users are steam; however, I have read posts in which diesel users have used two of these motor, One at each gear tower, because it is not double shaft. Now, get this. There does not seem to be a USA direct source. They are available On the auction site as "buy now" from China for a little more than $2 each. My orders have come in about 2 weeks. 

On pages 38 and 39 of my blog (see link under signature) I have posts about this motor. Now if you use older DCC decoders, be advised that this motor has internal capacitors which may affect the BEMF - I have found no DCC user post that has used this motor to have had a problem though. I am DC but I have the motor in a loco with  a WifiTrax direct wireless loco control module that uses BEMF and it has no problem. WifiTrax module even has an internal capacitor in it to smooth the BEMF signal. Maybe DCC has a smoother???

Bottom Line - study that Repower-Regear group and good luck. 

Steve Gratke

Reply 0
Nelsonb111563

What are you re-powering?

I guess this is the million dollar question!  I model diesels so for me I use the KATO motors from the Atlas line when I can find them.  However, Bachmann has a flat side "can motor" that is in the Sound Value line and these are very smooth runners!  The Athearn "genesis" motors are also very smooth runners so I guess it's "pick your poison" on what to use!  If a motor has 5 poles or more with a skewed armature then you can be sure it will run smooth with little or no "cogging"! 

Nelson Beaudry,  Principle/CEO

Kennebec, Penobscot and Northern RR Co.

Reply 1
blindog10

Subjective qualities

In my experience the Sagamis were quieter but the Mashimas were somewhat stronger.

As Nelson wrote, the Kato motor has been a good choice but you certainly are not going to get them for $2.  But they have been price competitive with Sagamis and Mashimas.

Scott Chatfield

Reply 1
ctxmf74

Does anyone have a preference?

Hi D,  I used them both in the old days. More Mashimas than Sagamis but that was because they were easier for me to get at the time. As Prof suggested I'd go with whatever you can get at a good price. Last re-motor I did I got a coreless motor on ebay, can't recall the brand but it worked fine....DaveB

Reply 1
Deemiorgos

Thank you all. I am

Thank you all.

I am thinking about re-powerring this Overland/Ajin model made in 1997.

https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/37560?page=1

IMG_8190.jpg 

I don't know what make this motor is. It runs well at normal and faster speeds,

motor(1).jpg 

but not as well at crawling speed like this Mashima upgrade I had put in my Samhongsa 0-8-0 . A super smooth motor.

%200-8-0.jpg 

I'm curious to know what motors are in my Division Point's Boo Rim models, as they are superb and run like no other model I have; I'm not ready to take them apart to find out. I love how Boo Rim locos look just like the prototypes do when crawling off the turntable's bridge.

I am not familiar with Canon, coreless, and Mabuchi motors, but will look them up. I overlooked the idea of using a Kato motor.

Reply 1
Marc

faulhaber

These motors are made in Europe but are exceptionnal.

They are well know for excellent torque and very low starting voltage and slow speed

I never buy one they are a bit expensive but         i buy an old Atlas - Rivarossi N scale 0-4-0 switcher with his tiny sloped tender at a train show years ago,

To my surprise this tiny engine had been repowered with a small geared Faulhaber motor; I can only say she creep and she is powerful.

II have two others one with the stock Atlas motor.

When Bachmann has offered a small sloped tender I replaced the stock one which are a  metal casting and was able to put a small Zimo decoder Inside.

With a 90 step for speed range the Faulhaber move the engine like a snail, the two other run at slow speed with 128 step like a Mustang compared to the Faulhaber one

Two old Rivarossi mikado have Sagami motors but they don't creep like the faulhaber

I have not the name but a well know Switzerland company offer repowering set for numerous N scale and Ho scale  European models with Faulhaber motors.

https://www.faulhaber.com/fr/page-daccueil/

You can change the language in English of the home page.

On the run whith my Maclau River RR in Nscale

Reply 1
Rasselmag

@ Deemiorgos

This motor in your CN 2-8-2 was made by Bühler. There are two designs of this type for 12V. At first the version with a 3-pole armature. This is a not so smooth runner at low rpms and has a light cogging.

Then the better one with a 5 pole armature. These have a better low speed behavior and much less cogging. Both types of those Bühler motors have a straight wounded armature.

For replacement i suggest you to choose a Mashima motor type 1824 or 1830 or 1833. The type cyphers depent on diameter x lenght of the motor's casing. 1830 means 18mm diameter x 30mm length. These Mashima motors all have a 5 pole skew wounded armatures which eliminate cogging nearly complete and enables them to run really very smooth at very low rpms. The main difference between 1830 or 1833 are the lower RPMs of the 1833 (1830: 9200rpm vs 1833: 8500rpm) and the 3mm difference in lenght.

Link to technical data:  https://www.fischer-modell.de/mashima-motor-mh-1824d-10?c=182

my 2 €ents

Lutz

Reply 0
Volker

Sources in USA and UK

If you don't want to import from Germany here is a source in the USA: http://www.roundbell.com/MashimaCanMotors.html

They offer different motor makes like Canon too.

And a source in the UK: http://www.tower-models.com/towermodels/oogauge/mashima/index.htm

As Mashima motoers are out of production you need to ask what they have still in stock.
Regards, Volker

Reply 1
Graham Line

End run

You might look for swap meet sellers clearing out old Proto Power West chassis, or some of the later Front Range Models. If you can get them at a right price, they have quality can motors.

Reply 0
ctxmf74

"You might look for swap meet

Quote:

"You might look for swap meet sellers clearing out old Proto Power West chassis, or some of the later Front Range Models."

  There must be thousands of them in hobbyists stashes around the country as they were common re-power items in the hey day of the Blue box engines. I think all my old Athearns ended up with Mashima or Canon motors .....DaveB 

Reply 1
Deemiorgos

Lutz, Sounds promising. I

Lutz,

Sounds promising.

I measured the Buhler, it is 36mm length, 24mm height, and 18.25 width.

I measured the Mashima in my 0-8-0 and the dimensions are 33mm length and 21mm height, and 18.5mm wide so this one is the 1833?

It seems the 1833 would be a nice fit for the 2-8-2.

What are the advantages of the low rpms versus high rpms? My goal is to get the smoothest starts and crawl I can get, as I rarely go fast and never pull a long train on my branch line.

 

Reply 0
bobmorning

I have been using this one, 

I have been using this one,  seems to be a perfect match to the Kato HM-5.   Small size and even has the same distinctive dimples on the motor sides.   if it is a true Kato, it is a darn good knock off.   You can't beat the price but they do ship from China I buy them 6 or 8 at a time.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-12V-24V-High-Speed-5-Pole-Rotor-Motor-13mm-long-Dual-Shaft-DIY-Toy-Car-Boat/123341220324?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

Bob M.

Modeling the Western Maryland in the 1980's at http://wmrwy.com

20pixels.jpg 

Reply 0
Deemiorgos

Thanks Volker. I will check

Thanks Volker. I will check out the USA source.

Reply 0
Deemiorgos

Marc, thanks for the link,

Marc, thanks for the link, I'll check it out. I didn't realize the number of options available.

Reply 0
Deemiorgos

Bob, good to know. Thanks.

Bob, good to know. Thanks.

Reply 0
Deemiorgos

DaveB, Good idea, I'm going

DaveB,

Good idea, I'm going to a hobby show in November.

Reply 0
Deemiorgos

Prof Klyzir, I used to have a

Prof Klyzir,

I used to have a Sagami and some other motors somewhere in my stash, but I think I sold them at a hobby show several years ago thinking I'd wouldn't have any use for them. No foresight me.

Reply 0
Deemiorgos

Nelson, I looked up what

Nelson,

I looked up what cogging means. Yeah, that would be awesome not having that.

Reply 0
Deemiorgos

@ Graham and Scott, maybe

@ Graham and Scott, maybe I'll get lucky at the hobby show in November and find something.

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

Fast Vs Slow RPM motors

Dear Deem,

Quote:

What are the advantages of the low rpms versus high rpms? My goal is to get the smoothest starts and crawl I can get, as I rarely go fast and never pull a long train on my branch line.

Sounds as if a quick review of the "motor replacement guide" section of the NWSL Catalog might be time-well-spent.

https://web.archive.org/web/20180325051500/http://www.nwsl.com/tutorials.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20180321124804/http://www.nwsl.com/nwsl-online-catalog.html

Now, when it comes to electro-mechanical things,
there are some basic physics in play which can be easily understood in generalities,  
but the real power comes when you start plugging in some "known application-specific" values,
because once a few numbers are in-place, the rest of the values (or the appropriate range of possible options)
fall into place reasonably quickly...

To wit:
(I apologise in advance to our man Bernd for the massacre-ing of loco mechanism wisdom below... ).

- There are a few general "performance characteristics" which we need to consider

1- Overall target Speed of model
(Motor RPM x gearbox ratio x wheel circumference/"distance travelled per wheel revolution")

2- Overall target Torque of model
(Does the mechanism provide enough force at the wheels to start-moving the weight of the loco + desired train against expected grade and curve resistance)

3- Max Current draw
(the harder you ask the electric motor to work, the more current it will demand from the decoder/throttle,
and the more stress it will have to handle)

4- Acoustic Noise
(the faster the collective parts of the mechanism are spinning,
the louder and higher-pitch/annoying acoustic noise is created)

5 - Mechanical sympathy and wear/"operational lifespan"

 

 Now, how does this relate to "High or Low RPM motors"?

For the "FAST RPM motor" side:

- A Fast RPM motor requires more gearbox-reduction (higher ratio) in order to slow the wheel/axle rotation to achieve the "slow speed operation" you're looking for (could be good or bad, keep reading).

- A Fast RPM motor + associated high-speed-rotating gearbox elements will likely generate more noise in operation (generally bad, and particularly-annoying esp at "high pitched whine" frequencies).

- The same "high-speed rotating-elements" will likely require more-frequent lubing just to stay operational.
(problematic)

- In order to operate at "higher speed", the gearbox will need to be more-precision-engineered and constructed,
(IE more $$$)
but this may also allow use of smaller-pitch teeth and elements.

- However, we may be able to get away with a smaller motor
(smaller motor = higher mechanical RPM envelope)

- We may be able to get away with a weaker motor
(the motor does not to do the "heavy lifting",
the mechanical advantage of the gear-reduction makes the motor's life real easy...)

- The motor will be drawing measurably less-current, as it's not having to work tremendously-hard.

- ...and, it's arguable that a faster-rotating motor armature imparts it's own mechanical "flywheel" effect,
(higher-rotational speed = more rotational inertia), which may be beneficial.

 

For the "SLOW RPM motor" side:

- A Slow RPM motor can get away with a lower-ratio gearbox,
while still achieving the desired "slow speed operation"

- A Slow RPM motor and associated slow-spinning gearbox elements should generate less "annoyingly audible" noise. (some noise, maybe some "growl", but not a "whine").

- The resulting gearbox can maybe be a little more "agricultural" in it's design,
using larger-tooth/easier-to-manufacture elements...
(this will become important later-on, keep reading)

- However, the motor will be physically larger
(larger electric motor = lower RPM)

- Without the gear-reduction assistance, it's all on the motor to do the "heavy lifting" against the weight + grade + curve-resistance load of starting the loco and train moving. We need a motor with _TORQUE_...

...and with a strong motor applying a lot of Torque, the gearbox will need to be suitably "heavy duty" to transfer the torque to the axles. (If the gearbox is "delicate/weak", then it won't handle the fight-forces between the motor and the load, and simply break....)

- The motor will likely demand higher-current, esp as the Load increases and the Motor-rotation is having to put in a lot of effort to keep the whole system spinning...

 

Make sense?

As a practical pair of HO/OO examples,

- Some gorgeous little UK/Euro small-steam mechs run tiny (8-12mm dia) motors,
thru ultra-precision gearboxes with 100-200:1 ratios
achieving ultra-crawly performance from an 0-4-0 with enough torque to pull entire road-length trains.

- On the flipside, Athearn and similar "centre-motor --> gear-tower" diesel mechs get away with 14:1 ratio gearboxes,
with comparatively agricultural big/strong teeth and gear-elements,
powered by relatively-brawny 18-24mm dia motors...

 

Now, in your specific case, you have the loco in question, which means you have:

- the wheel diameter (allows calc of circumference, and thus "desired trackspeed < --- required axle/wheel RPM")

- existing gearbox ratio/reduction

- existing gearbox gear/tooth size/strength
(gear ratio and gear-tooth-size are inter-related, and will determine "how much motor torque" the gearbox could handle without breaking)

- the available space for the new/replacement motor

- ...and hopefully, you have a bead on the typical curve + grade + train-load the loco
(new motor + gearbox combo) will need to handle.

If all you're looking to do is replace the motor, 
but you're keeping the rest of the mechanical system/gearbox,
then the Replacement Motor performance envelope (RPM, Torque)
can't really deviate beyond what the stock mech can handle...

I hope this helps...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PS I can't seem to find it right now, but IIRC NWSL used to have a great "motor selector" primer,
and the key takeaway was
"a Torquey Low-reving motor + Low-Reduction gearbox
is generally preferrable
to a High-Reving motor + High-Ratio gearbox".

Reply 1
Deemiorgos

Always a help you are dear

Always a help you are dear Prof Klyzir.

Well your reply certainly explains some things about what I have observed in the past. The 0-8-0 used to have a smaller motor and I think it was round. I recall hearing the motor and the growling. When the motor burnt out, a hobby shop suggested a larger motor and put Mashima in it and to this day, I cannot hear the motor nor is there a growl, and it crawls nicely with the original gear box to boot.

IMG_2813.jpg 

I just cleaned out the gearbox and washed the drivers and rods. I sprayed a light coat of semi-gloss black on the drivers and rods, as it has some nicks in them that I did not want to touch up with a brush.

I haven't even lubed the bearings or gearbox yet and it runs/crawls very smoothly, but I read that I should still lube it.

Thanks for the links to the guide, I'll check them out over the weekend.

Reply 1
Marc

MABUCHI

 

Nobody as already speak about MABUCHI DC motors; they also offer fine small DC motors.

They are already offer is some models of locomotives.

Seems the size offered are similar or equal of the offer of Mashima.

This is perhaps a good choice in a near future like Faulhaber since Mashima motors are not anymore frabricated and will dissappear in a near future like Sagami which is already nearly gone.

I forget to mention in my previous post, Faulhaber offer motor with gear box attached with numerous ratio.

My  small N scale locomotive  run with a Faulhaber motor which is in size 8mm by 15mm and this is a geared motor.

Canon motor are also excellent and already proposed in some brass models; they are in the range price of Faulhaber.

Here are all the link for them

 

https://www.faulhaber.com/fr/produits/moteurs-cc/

https://www.mabuchi-motor.com/

https://ftn.canon/en/product/motor/list.html

 

 

 

On the run whith my Maclau River RR in Nscale

Reply 1
Yannis

Faulhaber...

Marc, out of curiosity, which series would you recommend (they got a few series in the dc-category)?

Furthermore, i am curious with respect to brushless motors. They are an improvement in other applications (like cordless drills etc...) so i wonder how these would perform in locomotive applications.

Reply 1
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