Ambitious Project

John Allen spent something like 20 years building the final G&D and wasn't finished when he died.  Granted there are now better products to speed the process, this is still a long time commitment.

It will be interesting to see how far this project gets.

Paul

I think most of us G&D fans

I think most of us G&D fans are aware of it. Randy post regularly on the G&D io groups. I'm all for John getting the recognition that he so richly deserves in any way possible. It's certainly better than the many attempts I see these days to diminish his art and contributions to the hobby.

I've always thought I'd like to at least duplicate the trackplan. I never come close to kidding myself that I have the talent to even come close to the scenery although I try my best to invoke at least the feel of it on my own pike.

Another thought I've had  and dreamt about is having the space to duplicate the plan in an "unwrapped' fashion, more linear. There is a sketch of the unwrapped version which was done by John himself. It's somewhere in the opening chapters of Linn Westcott's book.

VERY ambitious

Yes that is a very ambitious project, but the fellow seems to be doing a heck of a job, and in fairly rapid fashion, and with good detailing. I found his text, and photos, and links to be first class.

I thought this observation was rather interesting as well,..

I usually assume most John

I usually assume most John Allen fans know of all the places you can find information on the G&D but there is a very active  Groups.io community all about it that migrated over from Yahoo and as I said, Randy does post there about his project on a regular basis. https://groups.io/g/GandD

Thanks for the Link

I wish the guy luck. It is a pretty ambitious project. He is making good progress though.

Jack

Back to posting stuff from

Back to posting stuff from other forums?  *sigh*

It's certainly better than

I must be living in a bubble.  I have not seen any attempts to diminish John Allen's art and contributions to the hobby at all.

GNNPNUT

Hmm...

Interesting to see someone taking prototype modeling in a whole new direction. 

Interesting to see someone

Funny you should say that Marty. When asked, I've often told people my prototype is the Gorre and Daphetid. It's what inspires me to this day and more so than any "real" railroad ever has. As much as I like watching the real ones when I can and viewing pictures of them, I doubt very much if this would have become a life long hobby for me without the inspiration of  the G&D!

Observation

A copy is never as sharp as the original.

Interesting

Clearly a highly motivated guy who’s been very busy.  I don’t quite get why you’d try to recreate someone else’s model railroad though.

A wild fantasy of mine

A wild fantasy of mine has been to actually build John Allen's G&D faithfully in HO. It would be really fun, but alas there's just not enough time to do that -- it would be like having an entire other hobby.

I learned a long time ago about focus. If I wanted to accomplish anything, I had to lay aside my other hobbies and focus on doing one hobby really well. Model Railroading was my choice as of 1993 or so.

So while doing a G&D layout faithfully would be fun, it's just "a bridge too far" for me. Now to see someone else has decided to actually do what I had imagined doing is fascinating. I wish him all the best, and will be watching closely.

In this same vein, I predict one day, someone might also try to build a V&O look-alike. These two railroads -- the G&D and the V&O -- were certainly documented well enough in the hobby press to allow making a pretty darn good replica. 

Although if you're modeling an HO layout in HO, that's 1:1 prototype modeling, isn't it?

The V&O had more direct influence on me because the G&D

Burned up ten years before I was born. My take on John Allen is more like a historian. He pioneered a lot of ideas considering that at that time a conventional layout was just a loop. The timesaver wasn’t meant to be a layout, it was a tool to teach conventional thinkers the idea of switching. You realize that the hobby was just children’s toys at that time. He used unrealistic couplers because they worked on reversing moves, something that horn hooks didn’t like to do. While he was serious in how he did some things he also had a childish sense of humor by other choices. He also had an artistic touch to his scenery. He had to have a been a character to meet in person.

The V&O built on the idea of having scenery and ’realistic’ operation in a more serious manner. Dropping the fantasy parts all together. It also lasted for a long time, shaping the idea for many of us that a model railroad should be well sceniced and realistically operated. There was clearly a difference now between toy trains and a model railroad. 

I would have a different hobby if those layouts hadn’t created the concept of modeling a railroad. I like trains a lot but I find toy trains racing around a loop to be boring. My uncle who got me into this hobby was the opposite, he never had a layout only a temporary loop of Lionel track.

"The timesaver wasn’t meant to be a layout, it was a tool ...

... to teach conventional thinkers the idea of switching. "

Actually, several long time G&D operators told me the Timesaver was developed (or at least evolved into) a drinking game....

Just a couple of comments....

John Allen died about the time I hit ten years old, so most of the things I read came after.  His G & D was a masterpiece and I seriously doubt a duplicate would do much for me....there was only one Mona Lisa, and I think Mona Frida may look a lot like her but really isn't the same.  As for operations, Mr. Allen was a pioneer, but Frank Ellison was running with realistic operations and O- scale trains before the G & D was even begun.  Model Railroading by 1955 o so was more than tinplate running in a circle.....as for couplers, the horn-hook was designed in 55 and was just available, so I doubt it was even considered.  So, here's to John Allen, a toast to a unique bird whose legacy is loved by many and reviled by some, but he was a pioneer in many facets of our wonderful hobby, so a toast to the man and his vision!!!

While I certainly admire

the dedication the builder is putting into this creation I don't personally have any desire to "recreate" someone else's model railroad - even a classic such as the G&D or V&O. 

Same reason I think displaying chunks of old "classic" model railroads - including the V&O - in a museum is a somewhat misguided notion. I saw photos of the pieces of the V&O that are headed for display in the NMRA wingo of the CA RR Museum in Sacramento - frankly they look like dusty old chunks of a 40+ year old model railroad. It will be challenge to put them in some sort of context that makes sense. And a chunk of an old model railroad is going to look like garbage to a member of the general public. I have trouble seeing how that's going to represent the the magic of model railroading. ...

The San Juan Central is also (apparently) slated to go with that display - in it's case the layout is complete so cohesiveness will be more readily achieved. 

Maybe there's something to the legend that John's friends fulfilled his wishes by destroying the layout after his death? Or perhaps it was John himself.... 

We all have

modelers who have influenced us - some in person, others through the pages of model railroad magazines. 

My personal model railroading influences have been Dave Frary, Bob Hayden, Art Curren, Andy Sperandeo, Paul Dolkos, and John Paganoni. I've learned something different - and worthwhile - from all of them. 

I've always found it interesting that the two most popular posts on my blog are this one  http://centralvermontrailway.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-glimpse-into-my-modeling-past.html discussing my early experiences in the hobby, and another one  https://centralvermontrailway.blogspot.com/2012/10/model-railroad-influences.html showcasing the model railroad authors (other than the ones named above)  that influenced me the most. 

To get this back to the subject of the thread while I greatly admire John Allen's creation I agree that without the creator any copy is going to be just that - a copy - and may be a technically accurate recreation but will lack the magic of the original. 

Tributes

Although I've built at least four versions of the first G&D and it would be sort of a dream to build the whole thing, I don't believe I'd ever actually undertake it.   Again, given the space and resources, taking the plan and unwrapping it into the more linear design conventions of today's layouts might be quite an interesting project though. It certainly wouldn't look like any sort of copy and I doubt people would even know the root of the plan unless you told them. I just like to think that my layout captures the "style" of John's modeling and doing that is what makes me happy.

Nothing wrong with tributes though and that's more or less what something is when you copy an original based on your love for it. I'm pretty sure Randy is not doing a complete facsimile of the G&D, there will be variations by necessity and also by choice, so IMHO some of the sentiments about "copying" aren't really warranted. Besides, in this day and age, how many can claim to be original in this hobby or in life in general? I freely admit my modeling is derivative and I would challenge most anyone to prove their own modeling is not derivative of some other modelers work who is either a contemporary or one that came before them. A perfect example is all the V&O Appalachian themed layouts we've been inundated with over the years.

The G&D Replica...

Below is simply a few of my thoughts... not even espoused to be correct!

* I highly admire his gung-ho attitude and he's accomplishing a LOT in a short amount of time.

* I doubt he will ever be able to capture (and replicate) the magic and charm of the original. No way. John was one of a kind as was his layout and mythical world he created in the G&D.

* I don't think I would ever tackle such a tribute layout of any subject. I suspect that I would always feel that my effort would be lacking the magic of the original and thus not as fulfilling as I had hoped.

* Bottom line to me is that it's HIS hobby and this is what turns his crank, so more power to him and I wish him the best! OH, and I'll enjoy following his progress, too!

Andre

About the GD

John work was the starting point of my Maclau River 45 years ago.

Dad offer me the Linn book about the GD lines, this was a real source of inspiration, including some copy of part or models on my Maclau River like the car ferry Anabel.

During my military service, this book was reallymy bedside book.

This was the time where I elaborate the first big plan for my layout.

Even in Europe where I lived, John was a well know modeler.

25 years ago a good friend of mine has translate the  Linn book in french with an agreement with Kalmbach.

Jacques Leplat had the chance, when concluding the agreement with Kalmbach, to have a long conversation with Mister Sperandeo about his experience as an operator on the GD lines and his feeling about it.

In fact the layout was smaller than many of us can have expected.

Which is not often mentionned is the way John build   and designed his layout, in fact more of the scene except Sims loop area and the included first GD with the small town of Gorre  are build along the edge of the benchwork with very little depht.

Most of the buildings in the second row are just two or maximum three walls build against the backdrop.

Undersized them, parallelogram forms and many effects of colors enlarge most of the scene which are very small in reality.

For his time this was really revolutionnary in the layout design, knowing most of the actualy design use this technique.

Unfortunately in the last year, the layout suffered of the presence of lot of dust, this can be seen on late pictures of the layout if you look carefuly on cars, tenders of locomotives or severals details.

On the http://gdlines.org/GDLines/life.html site there are numerous new pictures I never seen; I just Watch them monday evening for the first time.

There are also pictures after the fire; I know the layout was destroyed but never think it was so much destroyed and damaged.

Amazing is the speed of construction between 1955 and 1963, most of the basic scenery was done, and many area were nearly completed at this time.

Like many of us, probably my modeling life would have  been different without the influence of John.

For my new expanding layout in N scale, I will use some John techniques, like linoleum backdrop hanged on the walls and scene with small depht.

I will also use the two parallel lines design one going up ( the one going to Andrews on the GD) and one going down ( the squawbottom run on the GD) to make more differences between track without the use of helix or such device, course no track will be Under 3.2 feet on my design and grade not over 2.5% maximum knowing John used 3 to 4% on the GD.

Just my feeling about the GD and how much he influenced my modeler life.

Hmmm...

Hey, if that's what the guy wants to do, more power to him. Many layouts are copying what others are doing as it is, so at least he's up front on his concept.

Oh, it's out there, but it's more oriented toward the older mindset of the G&D being a 'holy grail' of layouts and how nobody would ever do better. I used to see and hear exactly this message all the time when I was a kid getting into the hobby.

The guy blazed a trail and went places with the hobby that apparently nobody else ever did (I say apparently as I've heard rumors over the years of layouts that would leave Allen shamed in comparison, but which never got into any magazines) and for that, I'll always be impressed. You just didn't see what he did in the magazines before his work got out.

But the hobby has evolved since then. Whimsy isn't nearly as common, people are producing far more realistic models and layouts than they did in John Allen's day. And there are a lot of large layouts with amazing vistas today. I would argue that there are plenty of layouts far more impressive when compared side-by-side than the G&D. Heck, I've seen two structures, a locomotive and a couple of freight cars recovered from the G&D after the fire, and they're nothing worth writing home about when compared to what you can find on layouts today. Allen's layout has the distinction of being one of the first of its type.

Sort of like building your own copy of a 1930s airplane to fly around. Sure, it'll look cool when you're done, but for the effort there's far more efficient and better handling stuff to build these days with the current tech.

John Allen had four advantages that I can think of

1. Apparently he had inherited money, so he didn't have to hold down a 9 to 5, freeing up that time for modeling.

2. He was an excellent modeler. I can't even imagine trying to run ops with that generation of steam locomotives. 

3. He welcomed others in to help run his railroad. He wasn't a lone wolf, he was apparently quite open about having others over to run on the G&D. So he influenced the modelers of the area, as well as people who might be passing through (with one major (Fort Ord) and two minor (Presidio of Monterey and Naval Post Graduate School) nearby, he probably got a fair amount of passthrough traffic), who had heard of him from #4 - 

4. He was a good photographer. Want to make a magazine publisher drool? Provide good photography with your articles - words can be rewritten, but there is only so much that can be done with a photograph. So he was published, which assisted in his becoming more widely known. He was also an advertising photographer for at least one manufacturer (Varney, IIRC). 

So it was a fortunate combination of skills and circumstances that helped boost him into the spot of "best known model railroader" of his time. 

A comparaison which for me explain his influence on the hobby

John Allen like Jimi Hendrickx were precursor.

John show what was possible to do with model trains, in his time this was unbeleivable; Jimy show what you can do with an electric guitar, this was also unbeleivable.

I think also John was a precursor in model photography, his job of course, but the 1945-46 pictures he produced were outstanding for the time.

There I think a legend was born

As Jeff mentionned on this topic, the fact he has worked as a professionnal advertissement photographer and especialy for model train with the GD in background has help to make him a very well know modeler.

Kalmbach and RMC have published a lot about John layout even today, the GD come back once a time each year nearly in MR.

Even if it's sadly the layout dissappear in  such bad and sad manner, I think is better, because the 70's were the  begun of appearance of very fine layout with crafmanship works which, if the GD still existed would really denature his quality.

About John, when we look closely to the pictures ( I just do it again) we must admit the whole effect of the layout is great, but many structures have flaws and are poorly painted like some of the weathering job; you can easily see the brush pass on structure and on cars or a really heavy coat of paint which is not precise; many structures have poor joints; the backdrop above port is really not good to be honest, to much smoke and poorly rendering of the structures for the most.

But I really like it like most of us and he has had influence on my modeling.

Like the GD was fourty years ago, the now  most asked layout is the FSM but FSM is also one of the most well know manufacturer of craftsman kit.

This has help to well know the work of Georges. and his fabulous layout.

This is somewhere similar of the way John was well know, advertissement, kit and craftmanship.

Georges modeling also put a lot of influence; but unfortunately, the only drawback about FSM kit is the fact they are for the most unconstructed and wait in box for the collector market

The FSM is the best layout for our period, but probably a new one will come later; this is just how the circumstances and how the owner can display his name and layout in the community.

But in many ways John has open the road to the FSM  because he show us it's possible to model fine model railroad; this was 70 years ago!

He also showed new construction method like lone roadbed on risers, handlaid track and new concept of scenery which is not build on a tabletop but this is just a few of his innovations for our hobby, nearly 70 years ago since the big GD was started in 1955.

Just my opinion and my thankfulness about the help he has done to like to model trains

.

More thoughts

Most of the derisive comments toward the G&D that I see always seem to be looking through the lens of the modern day version of this hobby. All the "spaghetti bowl" (it wasn't really) comments, not prototypical, trains goes through scenes more than once, non linear design, blah blah blah and on and on were not the popular concepts they are today. Many were completely unheard of at the time. There certainly wasn't the obsession with prototype fidelity there is today and modelers back then didn't have the tools and resources that we do today to achieve that sort of fidelity, even if they had wanted to.

While the so called "whimsy" part of things may not be as popular as it once was, don't kid yourself that it's gone. Pick up a copy of  the "Narrow Gauge and Shortline Gazette most anytime if you want to see examples of it. Us "artsy fartsy" creative types are alive and well thank you!

The discussion about "copying" is funny to me and I have to ask...What's the difference in copying a model railroad you like and copying a real railroad you like?  I really don't think there is one.