ATSF104

I have posted this on my Facebook page with lots of good feedback from some very prolific modelers so I am asking more for critique here.

Background: I have never built a full size layout. I now have a nice space to build a decent size layout without it being too overbearing. Throughout the years I have purchased and built, destroyed, and rebuilt modules for fun. So this will be built with the TOMA approach...kinda...

Prototype: Apache Railway from Holbrook to Snowflake, AZ is the main focus with the ability to run hot Z trains on the BNSF/Santa Fe mainline that loops around the room.

Scale: HO

Minimum Radius: 36" on BNSF main, 26" on Apache main, 18" on some spurs and industrial sidings.

Link to the plans:  https://www.flickr.com/photos/48288130@N02/albums/72157710633778788

Looking forward to the critique. Thank you!

Matt

Reply 0
Rick Sutton

I'm confused.....

I can see a basement space.....some vague squares that looks to be 1'x1'. That looks like a nice sized space.

When I look at the upper and lower level track plans I do see track but I don't see benchwork and aisles. Is it me? Could be me or my browser but I can't get a feel for the physical layout.

Reply 0
jeffshultz

Looks like just the track plan?

Just to confirm, I am not missing the benchwork in the photos/drawings. If your swing gate is as short as it appears, and at an angle to the door, I think it will grow to be an aggravation. Just looks like a lot of maneuvering to get in through it and the doorway. Also, what is with the wall on the right side? Looks like a aisleway choke point. If it is not load bearing, see about taking at least part of it out. How much of a climb does the Apache main have between levels?

orange70.jpg
Jeff Shultz - MRH Technical Assistant
DCC Features Matrix/My blog index
Modeling a fictional GWI shortline combining three separate areas into one freelance-ish railroad.

Reply 0
JerryC

Blocking bathroom access?

Rearrange the curve at the lower left of the plan to eliminate the need for that multi-level liftout.

Reply 0
olamat

Apache Railway

Do not start too big. Start building a small section of the plan, e.g. along the station area in the upper part of the drawing. then use your time to rearrange the plans for the rest of your layout.

With such a long running mainline I would just run along the walls to get enough height to have only a smaller part of the layout in two levels. 

If you are doing this all by your own, then think of the level of detail you want to have, the available time you have to do that, and then resize the plan to a comfortable size.

A plan is not a good plan before it has been revised...several times! Enjoy!

 

Olav M, Oppegaard, Norway
HO scale, mid fifties, Eastern US RR,
Digitrax Super Chief + JMRI
Reply 0
greg ciurpita gregc

.

it's not clear where the aisle is in the top right section of the room where dead end track appears in the middle of the room 

have you considered building a peninsula around the divider such that the track goes thru the divider wall near the opening on the left so that the track flows to the right (bottom of divider) and around the walls of that room.

that doorway near the dividers seems an awkward place to have a siding

have you considered tunneling thru the corner in the middle of the room?

have you considered a pt-to-pt going around the room 1 7/8 times (one gate at entrance) with multi-tiered or multi-deck track with terminals on the wall on top (staging on the left) and a terminal on the wall in the middle

greg - LaVale, MD     --   MRH Blogs --  Rocky Hill Website  -- Google Site

Reply 0
David Husman dave1905

Critique

There is only a connection for clockwise running for staging for the BNSF, once you get a train on the layout there is no apparent way to get it back off the layout, there is no apparent way to get a counter clockwise BNSF train onto the layout.

The run to the upper level appears to just cut off a whole section of the room blocking access and cuts Snowflake and Holbrook yards in half so there is no easy way to work either yard from an operator point of view.

It will be very tough to follow BNSF trains since once they leave the middle of Holbrook yard they are under the upper level or past a duckunder.

Looks like it would be awkward to operate.

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index:  Dave Husman Blog Index

Reply 0
mgilger

Looks good Matt. My only

Looks good Matt. My only suggestion would be to add some industry sidings at various locations to give you the opportunity to do some switching along the mainline route. I did not see any in the current plan. 

Have fun ,

Mark 

 

M. Gilger - President and Chief Engineer MM&G

Reply 0
jimfitch

It looks to me you'll have at

It looks to me you'll have at least 2 lift out bridge to gain access, the main entrance and the upper right area.  Also the aisle width looks like it would be quite narrow in the lower right section of the layout and it could probably be made more assuming those are 1 ft squares, then the aisle would be maybe 24 inches.  I've got a couple of 24 inch pinch points but a smaller basement but you have a more generous area so you could likely make the aisle a bit wider.

.

Jim Fitch
northern VA

Reply 0
David Husman dave1905

Alternative

I would put the BNSF staging as a double ended yard in the smaller room.  A 6-8 track yard should be sufficient.  BNSF operators basically stay in the larger room and select their track and run until a detector says they are in the clear in the track.  No need to go in the smaller room.

Run the Apache along the front of the BNSF on a gentle grade.  Put a 1-2 turn helix through the wall so when the train appears in the smaller room its 4-8" higher, then the Apache runs on a peninsula and then over the BNSF staging.  Put another 1-2 turn helix in the blob of the peninsula.  You can use either or both helix locations.  If you put 1 turn in each location you can easily gain 10-12 in of elevation before you get over the BNSF staging, more than enough clearance for a staging yard.  But with one turn a train doesn't spend hours in the helix.  By using a couple small helixes it gains enough elevation that you don't need a substantial grade on the rest of the layout, allowing you to actually have a couple flatter areas for switching location.  By the time you get to the swing gate the Apache can easily be 18" above the BNSF.

This alternative only has duckunders to enter the room, all the track is accessible, the BNSF staging is easy to access and on one level.  It will be simpler to build and will lend itself more easily to a sectional construction.

level1.png 

Level 2

Level2.png 

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index:  Dave Husman Blog Index

Reply 0
ATSF104

Unfortunately...

Quote:

Looks like just the track plan?

Just to confirm, I am not missing the benchwork in the photos/drawings.

If your swing gate is as short as it appears, and at an angle to the door, I think it will grow to be an aggravation. Just looks like a lot of maneuvering to get in through it and the doorway.

Also, what is with the wall on the right side? Looks like a aisleway choke point. If it is not load bearing, see about taking at least part of it out.

How much of a climb does the Apache main have between levels?

Jeff Shultz
MRH Technical Assistant
orange70.jpg 

https://forum.mrhmag.com/journals-was-blogs-891775

Correct, you are not missing the benchwork, I do not have that drawn in yet. I want to place all my switches first beforehand.

The swing gate is in an open area of the room so it looks more cumbersome than it would be in reality. 

Unfortunately that wall is a load bearing wall so I cannot remove it.

The Apache climbs to 16" of separation but that can fluctuate if I need it to. I don't plan on running super long/heavy trains up that line, but if I do they'll have 5-6 units like the prototype.

Reply 0
ATSF104

Correct Rick

Quote:

I'm confused.....

I can see a basement space.....some vague squares that looks to be 1'x1'. That looks like a nice sized space.

When I look at the upper and lower level track plans I do see track but I don't see benchwork and aisles. Is it me? Could be me or my browser but I can't get a feel for the physical layout.

Yes, the squares 1'x1' and I have not built in any benchwork or aisles into the plan.

Reply 0
ATSF104

Thanks!

Quote:

Apache Railway

Do not start too big. Start building a small section of the plan, e.g. along the station area in the upper part of the drawing. then use your time to rearrange the plans for the rest of your layout.

With such a long running mainline I would just run along the walls to get enough height to have only a smaller part of the layout in two levels. 

If you are doing this all by your own, then think of the level of detail you want to have, the available time you have to do that, and then resize the plan to a comfortable size.

A plan is not a good plan before it has been revised...several times! Enjoy!

Olav M, Oppegaard, Norway
HO scale, mid fifties, Eastern US RR,
Digitrax Super Chief + JMRI

Indeed! I plan to start with the lower level first and then begin on the upper level. I'm sure at that point I'll find out how much of a pain it is to hang a shelf!

Reply 0
ATSF104

Ahh, yes

Quote:

.

it's not clear where the aisle is in the top right section of the room where dead end track appears in the middle of the room 

have you considered building a peninsula around the divider such that the track goes thru the divider wall near the opening on the left so that the track flows to the right (bottom of divider) and around the walls of that room.

that doorway near the dividers seems an awkward place to have a siding

have you considered tunneling thru the corner in the middle of the room?

have you considered a pt-to-pt going around the room 1 7/8 times (one gate at entrance) with multi-tiered or multi-deck track with terminals on the wall on top (staging on the left) and a terminal on the wall in the middle

greg - somerset, nj

That dead end track is actually the climb to the 2nd level. The width of the benchwork will probably be 20-26" there. 

I had not considered running a peninsula around the wall due to there needing to be 2 sets of tracks (one on either side of the door frame).

It may end up being awkward. I'd have to physically lay it out to see if that's even feasible and I'm not fond of the idea of tunneling through that wall if I could avoid it.

Not really as I'd like to have a layout where I can let trains run continuously.

Reply 0
ATSF104

Hmmm....

Quote:

Alternative

I would put the BNSF staging as a double ended yard in the smaller room.  A 6-8 track yard should be sufficient.  BNSF operators basically stay in the larger room and select their track and run until a detector says they are in the clear in the track.  No need to go in the smaller room.

Run the Apache along the front of the BNSF on a gentle grade.  Put a 1-2 turn helix through the wall so when the train appears in the smaller room its 4-8" higher, then the Apache runs on a peninsula and then over the BNSF staging.  Put another 1-2 turn helix in the blob of the peninsula.  You can use either or both helix locations.  If you put 1 turn in each location you can easily gain 10-12 in of elevation before you get over the BNSF staging, more than enough clearance for a staging yard.  But with one turn a train doesn't spend hours in the helix.  By using a couple small helixes it gains enough elevation that you don't need a substantial grade on the rest of the layout, allowing you to actually have a couple flatter areas for switching location.  By the time you get to the swing gate the Apache can easily be 18" above the BNSF.

This alternative only has duckunders to enter the room, all the track is accessible, the BNSF staging is easy to access and on one level.  It will be simpler to build and will lend itself more easily to a sectional construction.

-650x490.png 

Level 2

-650x490.png 

Dave Husman

Modeling the Wilmington & Northern Branch in 1900-1905

Iron men and wooden cars.

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

You may be onto something with this... 

Reply 0
ATSF104

Looks good Matt. My only Sun,

Quote:

Looks good Matt. My only

Looks good Matt. My only suggestion would be to add some industry sidings at various locations to give you the opportunity to do some switching along the mainline route. I did not see any in the current plan. 

Have fun ,

Mark 

http://mmg-garden-rr.webs.com/

M. Gilger - President and Chief Engineer MM&G

Thank you! There are a few locations for switching but I'm still working more into the plan.

Reply 0
ATSF104

Width

Quote:

It looks to me you'll have at

It looks to me you'll have at least 2 lift out bridge to gain access, the main entrance and the upper right area.  Also the aisle width looks like it would be quite narrow in the lower right section of the layout and it could probably be made more assuming those are 1 ft squares, then the aisle would be maybe 24 inches.  I've got a couple of 24 inch pinch points but a smaller basement but you have a more generous area so you could likely make the aisle a bit wider.

.

Rio Grande - The Action Road
Modeling Focus: 1970's thru end of caboose era.

I'll have to lay it out in the space first to see what the width looks like and see if it will be do-able. Fortunately or unfortunately, I do not have many modelers around so I'll probably be running this thing by myself or with my kids.

Reply 0
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