Clarification required

Hello Geof. There’s a lot of Peco knowledge on the forums so surely we can help. however Can you expand on what “hold it together” means here?  If it falls apart without physical pressure then We got some serious problems!

jeff

Hold it together?

If by “hold it together” you mean press on the points, then you’re relying on point contact with the stock rails to power the points and that’s never a good idea.

You need jumpers between the stock rails and the closure rails, and you need tiny jumpers between each closure rail and its adjacent point.

I show where the jumpers go in my Dec 2018 editorial:
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/mrhpub.com/2018-12-dec/online/index.html?page=16

Although I show PECO Electrofrogs in my editorial, the closure rails and points part will be similar. You can ignore the part about the frogs because you can't power Insulfrog turnout frogs.

P.S. PECO understands that Insulfrog turnouts are the weaker of their two turnout designs, so they're moving to what they call Unifrog turnouts, which look very much like Electrofrog turnouts but with very tight gaps around the all metal frog. Unifrog turnouts also have metal guardrails, another plus over plastic guard rails on Insulfrogs.

Unifrog fly in the ointment

The possible fly in the ointment with the newer Peco Unifrogs is that they also appear to incorporate a weakness from the insulfrog turnouts.  Photo's below illustrate:

Insulfrog

Unifrog

The part highlighted in the first photo which some complain about shorts where the metal tread contacts both sides, that part also appears to exist in the Unifrog.

Improvement?  You be the judge.  As for me, I'm stocking up on electrofrog while they are still being made.

Black Nail Polish

Would applying some black nail polish cover and insulate that small area?

Robert

Yes and no

Yes and no. I hate solutions that will eventually fail at some unpredictable time in the future and need to be redone once the polish wears off.

The more permanent solution is to grind a grove where shown and fill it with styrene. Or cut gaps several ties to the right, fill with styrene, and then power all the rails with a frog juicer -- done!

Yes, I mean pressing the points.

Thanks to all for the advice.  I did mean pressing the points, so it looks like I’ve wasted a fair amount of money on a  defective product.  Grrrr. 

Hold up a minute...

spring?

I think the word "press" is confusing people. As for Insulfrog being defective. I beg to differ. I had a spring get unhooked. Was unable to fix it. My eyes and shaky hands. So, I searched YouTube and found where a guy used a paper clip. I did that, fashioned an oversize spring. It works. Not great, but it does work enough to allow electricity to get from point to rail. And as for the other PECO turnouts on my layout. Using point feed. No problems. Not everyone dislikes Insulfrog. IMHO.

cleaning

In the first message, y'all asked about cleaning. I like cheap acetone, or nail polish remover/be sure to get non-smelly or non-oily.. I use a toothbrush and try to keep it off the plastic ties. I does clean rail and can get between points and rails. I then wipe the rails every foot or so with an inch of graphite. Let the cars spread that. It's been working for me for months now. I hope this helps. I had tried alcohol, but this acetone is better. Oh yeah, use in a ventilated area. Like use a fan. I have had no problem with smell, but it does have an odor that a fan will blow away.

First some questions...

Hi Geof,

don't be too quick to write them off just yet.

First some questions:

1. Are these new or second-hand Peco turnouts
2. How many of them have you got?
3. Are they all "failing" the same way?
4. On one route or on both routes of some or all of them?
5. Following on from Prof Klyzlr's previous post, Does the turnout audibly+visually "snap" over-centre when "finger-flicked? for each route on each turnout.  

Let's do the analysis before writing them off.

I do find it strange that Peco Insulfrogs run perfectly elsewhere in the world, but have such a bad reputation in North America.  

See what I'm running over them without problems. Now if I can get satisfactory performance out Insulfrogs running  these, so should you be able to.

Now that the shorting at the frog "red herring" has been dragged across your thread as a distraction, have a look at No Frog Surgery Required. This supposed fault has nothing to do with your current problem. I do wish some people would read and understand the question before answering. This post also helps to explain how Peco Insulfogs work.

Let's fix your current "problem" first,

I do find it strange that

Really?  Bad reputation isn't really so from what I've seen.

I've monitored Peco discussions on several US forums for years and the most I've seen are the occasional issue with shorting where the rails with opposite polarity are close together and usually with metal wheels which have a wide tread.  That situation is logical given what you can clearly see.  As noted above, those who do get the occasional shorting issue paint some black fingernail polish at that spot and problem solved - at least for a while.

You know, I hear plenty of north American modelers report no problems with Insulfrog Peco also, so ... I'm not sure where this "bad reputation" is coming from.  Sometimes a few reports of shorting can grow into that proverbial mountain when it is really a small mole hill.  Just sayin...

Are you enjoying yourself there?

In my case, I've decided to follow Joe's advice and go with Electrofrog to provide power through the frog.  I like the all metal frog appearance better as well.

Thanks everyone!

I will definitely take a closer look (and sincerely appreciate now having your guidance of what to look for) at the “bad” switches.  Chances are I’ll find it’s something simple (usually is)!

Geof Smith

I still don't get it

That being the "problem" that some folks have with Peco turnouts, especially the Electrofrog variety. I used them for years in N scale and have some on my HO pike as well now. Use them with DCC and all I've ever had to do is gap the inside rails beyond the frog and strategically place some feeders. Maybe it's my feeder placement, I feed them on both ends, but rarely have I ever had to clean the points to make them work and it's like a 10 second job anyway. YMMV  Peco also sent me a package of spare springs all the way across the big pond, free, just for the asking.

Michael, Do you power the

Michael,

Do you power the frog rails on the electrofrog turnouts that have the inside rails gapped?  If so, do you deal with the polarity change with a micro switch or a switch machine with the power routing feature?

Mr. Klyzir has mentioned micro switches - but I'd like some info on what they look like, how much they cost and where I can buy them.

At present I don't have power

At present I don't have power to them. The wire from the frog is just sticking down through my roadbed and sub roadbed to give me the option but so far I haven't seen a need. That may change when the railroad is more heavily operated and/or if any equipment problems develop. I don't recall the N scale turnouts even having the wire but the  code 75 I have do. Technically my Peco turnouts are labeled ""OO" although I use them with HO. I acquired them when I was following a plan on Byron Henderson's site that I have since abandoned.

Somewhere in the forum I've seen a picture of one of the micro switches mounted on a bracket underneath a turnout. I remember thinking it seemed pretty ingenious but I would have to go look for it.

You mean labeled like my

You mean labeled like my turnout in the packaging below?

My understanding is the British use HO track to run OO trains, which are a bit larger than HO, so not technically the trains and track being the same scale.  They are also a British style track if looking at the details.  I'm using them for my staging yard where I am not worried about the track not matching north American style.

Speaking of bracket under mounted, Peco makes a switch machine that mounts underneath to hide them for those who don't want to use above ground, if appearance matters.

I'm going to use Peco code 83 in visible areas which is a different line of track.

x

Forgive me but I'm not

Forgive me but I'm not familiar with British or Peco scale naming conventions. I no longer have the packaging for my turnouts but I recall them being in yellow boxes, not on card as above. The part #'s called for in the original Byron Henderson plan and later reused on my current plan are SL-E186,189,191,192,195.

If I ever have a chance to possibly rebuild or expand, I doubt I would use those particular turnouts again. I would probably opt for the more American version as I have no complaints with Peco overall. They are just what I had on hand at the time because I had originally opted to follow a specific published trackplan that was Byron's take on the MR HO scale Virginian project layout published a few years ago.

All I'm saying is that in N-scale and now in HO, I've used both insulfrog and electrofrog turnouts and have never had to go to any great lengths to make them DCC friendly and or worry about locos stalling or shorting on the frogs. Just one man's experience. Maybe I'm lucky?

For Jim

Hi Jim, all 

If you are after a microswitch approach, for inspiration have a look at  https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/turnout-control-options-manual-vs-electric-12208824 This uses a rod attached to the microswitch to mechanically throw the turnout and the switch part looks after frog polarity. This approach will work for Electrofrog turnouts, because the microswitch handles the power routing through the frog. I'm not sure if this is what you mean with microswitches.

I'm not sure how much experience you have with Peco point motors, so I'll go back to basics. If you've been there before, then please either skip over the following or use the bits that are relevant and disregard the bits that aren't relevant

If you are planning to use Peco point motors, be aware that Peco use two very different twin-coil point motor designs to drive their turnouts.  See  https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/turnout-control-options-manual-vs-electric-12208824 for the two options discussed in more detail below.

PL-10/PL-10E/PL-10W - undermounted twin-coil unit. The PL-10/PL-10W are designed to be attached directly to the turnout base using the slots provided in the base outside of the rails near the tie bar. The PL-10W has lower current coils and a green wrapping around the coils. The original higher-current PL10 has black wrapping around the coils. The PL10E and PL-10WE have an extended shaft for mounting under a baseboard thickness.
For N-scale only the prongs on one of the coils are used to mount the PL10 directly into the N-scale turnout base. The prongs under the other coil have to be bent flat or cut off to keep them out of the way 

PL-11 - sidemounted twin-coil unit for mounting above the baseboard. The wiring in these is a lot finer and a lot less robust than for the PL10 type. They WILL require a CDU (Capacitor Discharge Unit) to drive them without burning them out See  https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/turnout-control-options-manual-vs-electric-12208824 and this quote by me

Peco Micro-switches PL-13(single switch)/PL-15 (twin switch) - both of these are designed to be glued under the PL10-type twin-coil units. These switches are driven by the extension of the turnout throw rod below the coils. They will slightly add to the force required from the coils to throw the turnout. The single switch could be used for frog polarity or signal indications. The twin-switch unit could do both in the one attached switch unit. I haven't used either them so I can't comment on their reliability.   

CDU's - Please have a look at  https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/turnout-control-options-manual-vs-electric-12208824 for my experience with operating Peco N-scale turnouts with a "juiced up" CDU. For long-term problem-free operation of N-scale turnouts, when it comes to CDU's then bigger might not necessarily be better. It is probably better to throw each turnout individually rather than to try to move more than 2 of them at a time. Peco's own CDU is part number PL-35, and it works very well (able to throw two PL-10's simultaneously)

Control Panel Switches - These twin coil machines do pull some significant currents when the switch selecting a route is closed. Please have a look at the following:

Those previous exhibition layouts were N-scale, but the switches used and Peco switch machines are scale agnostic. These momentary contact switches didn't fail immediately, but if you are planning a long-term home layout, the experience is relevant, and it is a future problem that can be easily dodged.  

I hope that this gives you an answer to your questions,

Option

Here's what I did. PECO Insulfrog code 83.

Attached a fairly stiff wire to the throw rod, ran it through a plastic stir stick. A wire nut on the end. Just push or pull turnout. That works up to about 10". More than that may require a different wire/tube combo. I know this looks crude, but does work without machines, frog feed or whatever. After 8 weeks of use, the point feed still works - electricity flows just fine. Clean rails and points with a toothbrush/alcohol when required. On a large layout, this may not work. But on my shelf, is fine. On a turnout that I broke the little spring, I used a paper clip, bent it to shape, and is sufficient to hold points in place. Not as nice as the original, but I couldn't replace it - my eyes and hands didn't cooperate.

Here's another. One I don't have a picture of is 10" from the front edge and works fine. The wire is stiff enough, but stranded and requires care inserting in the throw rod. Hope this helps someone.