Don't take me wrong. I love

Don't take me wrong. I love Broadway Ltd steam locomotives. However, as nice as this Reading model will be, why this prototype? It represents a prototype that has been offered several times in the past. While there are Reading modelers in the hobby, the Reading is nothing special. How about the Illinois Central, Missouri Pacific, or any of the other railroads that have not had steam locomotives offered of their prototypes?

I love BLI, but let's get real for crying out loud.

Jim

Here are a few locomotives

Here are a few locomotives that I hope are never offered again other than as re-runs of existing models.

PRR K4s 4-6-2

NYC 4-8-4 Niagara

NYC 4-6-4 Hudson

RDG T1 4-8-4

N&W J1

UP Big Boy

UP Challenger

SP GS4 4-8-4

All of these locomotives have been offered over and over again. All but the two UP locos are passenger engines. We need freight locomotives that are not so big that they can't be used on small and medium size layouts.

Enough is enough!

Jim

Could be???

Have to agree with you Jim.

But I suspect that they are catering to collectors and or it is partially based on how many were sold the last time around so it should?? be good for more sales with different road numbers. And they save a bunch by not having to do more research.

Jack

Jack

I am sure what you say has a lot to do with it Jack. I have not issue re-running models that have already been offered with new numbers. I see this as a good thing. What bugs me is when a manufacture offers a model that has already been offered by other manufacturers. There are so many needed steam locomotives out there that never been offered.

I have an idea, let's start up a company to produce an all new EMD F-unit!!!  

Jim

I would love to see USRA 0-8-0 of good quality....

Seem we have to have a least a dozen GS4's but no moguls, ten wheelers or mikados, I see lower quality brands that seem to have durabilty issues or old brass, but here comes another collectors item that isn't even from a popular railroad..... I guess another F-unit will fit right in!!!!

I think the prototype

I think the prototype oriented modelers are a minority. Not only the collectors look for this kind of locomotive. There are lots of modelers who like large steam or famous locomotives.

As long as manufacturers see a market the will re-run locomotives. Better sell of the Xth run than produce a shelf queen with a locomotive the "specialists" want.

It is always the question is there a large enough market to at least recover cost.

ScaleTrains was once asked if they considered to manufacture a Krauss-Maffei diesel. Answer. They weren't sure if they could sell necessary 3,000 models. For steam the number might be even higher.

So everyone produces the better known steam locomotives.
Regards, Volker

Rapido steam

Gotta give credit to Rapido for finding the right (Canadian) prototypes.  The Royal Hudsons may adorn many a shelf, but the CPR D10 4-6-0 and its CNR counterpart are sure to be found operating on countless layouts.

David

Recently, a close friend of

Recently, a close friend of mine and Jim's, happened to see a rep. for BLI at a MRP meet and he asked the rep. when were they going to start producing smaller, (0-6-0, 0-8-0, 2-6-0, 4-6-0 etc.) steam locomotives for smaller/medium sized railroads. The rep. replied they don't/won't because nobody would buy them. I don't agree as there are plenty of steam transition era/ modern steam excursion modelers around.

Barry

The same exists in the diesel world...

We see so many F7 units, SD70 series, and the like. Lots of RS units have been done as well. Atlas and Athearn have done the MP15 series, Athearn and BLI have done the SW1500 and Rapido is doing an SW1200 (yeah!). What about a nice version of the SW1, SW7, SW1000 type locos? I'm sure there's a demand out there for them.

I guess the demand isn't that great... oh well..

Neal

" he asked the rep. when were

   LOL . Sure no one will buy them till they are made and available. Then they'll sell out and no one can buy them again. Blackstone seems to have sold a lot of small steam engines at a decent price. Maybe because they made them? ....DaveB.  

Barry

I know what you say is true. I have talked with BLI and other manufacturers and they all say that same line of bulls#$t. However, I do not blame them for believing that crap. It is OUR fault. We have done a terrible job of convincing them otherwise.

When I first approached Accurail several years ago about doing more older, wood freight cars they told me the same thing. However, I did not give up. I persisted with my argument and got another "key" modeler to work with me in convincing them. We won the day and today the older 36-foot boxcars are among their best selling products.

We, . . . yes, all of us that are interested need to push on BLI, Bachmann and maybe some others to produce the prototypes that we really need and want. We need to pour lots of proto photos and data on them in an intelligent way. If we don't, then we will get what we get -- more of the same bull crap locomotives that manufacturers have been pushing at us for decades.

Jim

Part of the problem

Part of the problem is also the fact that everything now is 'limited run'. Gone are the Athearn blue box days where just about any model you want was in stock when you needed it. I remember when I was a kid working in a local train store one whole aisle of the warehouse was floor to ceiling blue boxes. Now you might never see the model you need. 

And with tooling being so expensive it's easier and more profitable to re-run an existing model you know will sell rather that retool for one that may not. Ultimately everything comes down to money. Of course you can't blame them because they Will go out of business without a profit but I think the market has gotten very narrow. 

Part of the problem

Steven,

What you say about the bluebox days being gone is so very true. However, I see a wide market for steam locomotives that exists just waiting to be addressed. I see the key to success is to produce a chassis that and detail it for a particular railroad. Then a while later offer the same chassis detailed for another railroad. Then a while later repeat the process.

The only real changes to the chassis (drive) would be maybe different valve gear and possibly a different trailing truck frame. The same boiler could be used repeatedly if the sand and steam domes were separate parts added to the boiler. Same for the cab. The rest of the detail is just added on detail -- no problem. I would do this for 2-8-2 locomotives, then pick another class, say a 2-8-0, 4-6-0, 4-8-2, etc. I see years of product releases with each at a minimal cost to the manufacturer.

All this would take is a regular supply of proto photos and data along with urging from us modelers.

Jim

Custom

I was just thinking the same thing Jim. I wonder if what it would take would be a custom locomotive builder, whether it be plastic or brass. I think the initial start-up cost would be a small fortune, but the builder could then build to order, just like an actual locomotive works. With the explosion in the 3D printing field, it is a wonder that someone hasn't started already. If it were build to order, then the wait time might actually be worth the wait. 

What's seen

With the possible exception of the K4, most of the engines you mentioned are engines that have been used for steam excursions and are big engines that still exist.  You can find  hundreds of  You Tube videos of 844, 3985, 4449, 4019, 261, 2102 (note you probably know which engines they are just by their numbers) for every video of a USRA 0-8-0.  They are popular because the engines are still out there and people can see them, touch them and ride behind them.

As somebody modeling 1900-1905, I would REALLY love some smaller power, some camelbacks, a small 0-6-0, etc.  The key is to make some "common" wheel arrangements and then a couple different boilers.  The smaller power that is in production (or most recently was) is that arrangement, one or two boilers on a variety of underframes.

For example Roundhouse making a tapered boiler to fit on their 4-4-0, 2-8-0, 2-6-0 would open dozens of modeling opportunities.  Same with a camelback boiler.  A different boiler on the Bachmann 4-6-0 or 4-4-0 would be good.  It doesn't have to be a completely new engine, it could be some variation with some of the parts we have now.

Every product a hit out of the park ?

I think, and this is not supported by any other information than an uneducated guess, but I am pretty sure that these days every product that is placed in the production queue has to be a homerun hit and as such, no executive or manager wants to be the one that places a " dud " in that queue. That being said only products that have a proven track record or a pre-sale volume that practically guarantees a sell-out warrant any kind of risks these days.

Companies used to be in business for the long haul, but these days investors maintain that hands on mentality insuring the companies in question produce quick and sure-fire monetary returns.

One can hope that the emerging 3D printing market will find a niche that fills peoples discerning wants at a reasonable price. People waiting 2 and 3 years for a item production run probably shouldn't have a problem waiting the same for a 3D product built to their specifications to be perfected these days.

dave1905

You and I are of the same thoughts on this Dave. I believe that it would work and at a relatively low cost to put into production. A key would be to make sure the new model is of good quality and runs well. A few years abo BLI offered a NYC Mohawk in its hybrid blass/plastic line. The model looked OK but nothing great. What made it a dud was that it did NOT run reliably. Another issue with that model was that it was a passenger Mohawk of the 1940s. They should have put it in the Paragon line and produced an NYC L2 or L3 Mohawk that was a freight engine. In short, they screwed up, got burned, and now are hesitant.

Jim

hit out of the park

A simple reality in manufacturing is that not every new product is hit our of the park. Every new product is a gamble. The key to success is to get your ducts lined up before jumping into something. In the model railroad industry manufacturers have no experts in their employment and have to rely on outsiders to guide them. Too bad that all too often they listen to the wrong outside "experts".

Jim

Mechanisms

The only real roadblock to individual modelers (or small groups of them) making pretty much any loco they want is the mechanism.  It seems to me that if that's not already a solvable problem it should be soon - there are online machining services (similar to shapeways for 3D printing, except they machine things), and it's now possible to 3D print metal.  Seems like with a combination of good quality gears and wheelsets from someplace like NWSL, custom machined sideframes with holes in the right spots for the various axles and gears, 3D printed metal siderods, valve gear, etc, and 3D plastic printed shells if you were sufficiently motivated you could pull it off.  With some clever design it may actually be possible to make most of the frame 3D printed plastic with bearings inserted in strategic spots.

Who are the right experts?

How can you tell who the right experts are?

Basically it all comes down to trying to guess what people will do with their money in 2+ years when the product you start designing now actually makes it to market.  People are fickle.  And they don't always say what they'll really do when you ask them.  And even if they do, 2 years later their interests may have changed.

Tony K's column in MR

Picked up the latest MR at the grocery store this morning after reading Jim's initial comment and making my own. I had to shake my head after reading Tony K. He addresses this whole issue from the side. He and one or two others had the same complaint some years back, so they bought a sort of close model and rebuilt it into what they wanted. The out come was someone produced the same model AFTER they had finished their kit bash. He said it has happened often enough that he thinks it is a great way to get what you want manufactured.

I am surprised that with the success of Blackstone Models and their HOn3 locos that someone else hasn't stepped up and done the same for HO standard gauge using the ideas listed in the above posts. I believe O scalers have the same issue.

Jack

Blue Box

Yeah, but the Blue Box kits were generic and clunky, and you only had one style of modern boxcar to choose from. Painted in colours for many roads for which the model is not remotely accurate for. But that's all you got so you just had to deal with it.

So just about any model that was "available" would usually be in stock, but given the lack of choice it's not necessarily any of them were the ones you "wanted", because no one made the one you wanted.

So now, the pile of boxes is the same size, but instead of one giant pile of all the same Blue Box boxcars, you have a series of smaller piles of different varieties from different manufacturers.

Specific example: in the late 1970s, Athearn tooled up a then modern "RailBox" boxcar. It was a crude representation of a Plate B ACF car with several major mistakes. But it was the only modern boxcar and was painted for any modern boxcar paint scheme out there. Today we have multiple versions of ACF, FMC, Pullman-Standard and Berwick "modern" (1970s-80s) boxcars with far better and more accurate detail.

I'm cool with generic locos

I'm cool with generic locos and only need a very few for my small  pike so I have no dog in this fight but I'm a bit confused. I thought what a lot of you guys liked to do was super detail locos with spotting features of some particular line that's your favorite. BTW Jim, my thanks to you and your friend for the older Accurail cars.

You are sad with the offer in HO but......

I model in N scale; steam is the poor boy side of the locomotive offer.

Course Bachmann-Spectrum has offered a few good steam the last years, but in fact only generic locomotives like their counterpart in HO, most are USRA design a design used in most of the major company.

Big steam is really prevalent but the small Roundhouse mogul an prairie where hit salers like the Life Like -Walthers 0-8-0 switcher or the Spectrum 4-6-0 and  the consolidation.

So for sure there is a market for small steam  engines in any scale,because some of these models were also offered in HO like the Walthers 0-8-0 switcher and were sold out as soon as offered.

But seems like in HO the manufacturer don't want to take any risk and prefer to offer a Big Boy or a Challenger.

There is also a remark here, UP, like Santa Fe and PRR are well serviced by the production, Big Boy is for sure the winner and since 4014 is nearly ready to start again, sure we will see a new offfer of Big Boy.

Most of the small steam are one run shot, most never had any rerun and the few which were rerun where hit salers again in N scale and in HO.

And the same remarks exist in the diesel world, how much SD70mac or SD80 mac are offered and when a small diesel switcher is offered it's also a hit salers.

So the real reasons are not sure because of the above remarks, small locomotives are often hit salers and quickly sold out.

And unfortunately for steamers, some great company like the New York Central, the N&W, Rio Grande, Missabe  are orphelin of the production.

So if You understand the strategy, please tell me because I understand quickly but this need time !