Conflicting goals

Sounds like you’ve got a case of conflicting goals.  You want the visual realism which you can’t get with a paper mill in the space you have available.  And you want the added operating interest of having the paper mill.  Tough choices.  I guess I’d start with two questions.  Do you feel you have enough operating interest on the layout without the paper mill?  Is there some other industry you find appealing that you could fit nicely in the space available that would have more operating interest than the 2 hidden tracks?

Why

Why do you want the mill? 

1.  Do you want it to provide switching activity?  Having the mill represented by staging tracks won't do that, since they aren't going to detail switch and line up a cut at the main line for a set out, especially if it has a plant switcher.

2.  Do you want a destination for a bunch of cars, creating over the road traffic?  A staging yard paper mill will do that.  An all rail served paper mill generally has two trains serving it, a train carrying pulpwood or chips and a train carrying the inbound chemicals and outbound paper.

3.  Do just want to use the buildings?  A staging yard with the papermill on the backdrop won't really do that without some serious hacking o the existing buildings.

I modeled a "branch" using the staging yard concept on a previous layout for reason #2.

re: Why

Dave,

I was originally #1. I was looking to have a separate switching area to keep an operator busy. Or myself if I didn't feel like running around the entire layout. As the layout has evolved I've slowly gone more towards #2. I realize I could have 2 or 3 runs to the mill in one operating session which would keep a crew just as busy. I could have a woodchip run (I already have woodchip cars on the layout) and make the mill busy enough to have boxcars switched twice. As far as #3, I do still have that old Superior Warehouse but I could easily repurpose it in another place on the layout.

I have to say, the more I talk about it the more I'm liking the staging idea.    

Staging

There is no "wrong" answer to the questions I posed, but there are limitations.

If you are looking at the mill as a reason to provide a destination and a work event (set out or pick up) and you want to run a train there, as opposed to making a set out or a pick up, then you have to consider the mechanics of the move.  Do you want a train to "turn" there?  (meaning the train arrives from the west, does work and then departs back to the west, not the physical direction of the cars or engines).  Do you care which direction the outbounds go? (your railroad runs A to Z, paper mill at M, caustic soda plant at Z, soda cars will ping pong Z to M and back)

If you do care then you will need a runaround, either on the set out track or on the main track.

Or....

You will have to haul the outbounds to the next station/siding past the plant where they can be set out/runaround to go back. (train from Z to A picks up empty soda cars at M takes them to K, sets them out for an A to Z train to pick up).

If you put the runaround on the main track other trains can use it and the staging can be more hidden and longer.  If you put the runaround on the industry lead you will need to have the lead more visible, in order to see the further switch.  If you make the staging two stub end staging tracks then you can vary the trains more easily.  The inbound pulpwood/chip train sets out loads in #1 and picks up empties from yesterday's train from track #2.  The rest of the cars are closed so load/empty is easier.  Inbound soda, empty box, scrap paper, scrap rags, outbound paper and spent caustic soda ('soap").

If it were me I wouldn't use the paper mill buildings, I would paint them or put pictures on the backdrop in a much smaller scale to make the mill look like its further away on a lead and thus needs its own switcher. Or the mill could be switched by another railroad that comes in from the other side of the plant and you deliver the cars to them and they reciprocal switch the plant.

Possible industry for the foreground could be a corrugated box maker or paper sack maker, they get inbound paper and ship out carboard boxes and bags for dog food, cement, and other consumer goods.  The paper mill I had just north of Pine Bluff, Arkansas was on a lead, the SSW switched it alternating years and there were two bag mills within a couple miles that received paper from the paper mill, one on the lead and the other across the main.

Thank you

Dave I have to say you've been a big help. 

The upper level of my layout is point to point with a small classification yard on one end and what was going to be the mill at the other end. There's about 30 feet of mainline run in between with other various industries scattered along the line. There is already a runaround off the main just ahead of the mill area. I can easily fit 2 4' staging tracks representing the mill (we're not looking at 20 car trains here). I was looking at a simple turn job from the yard, swap out loads/empties and head back. But your mention of a corrugated box maker gives me another idea. I have an open siding just waiting for a building to sit next to it. 

Thank you for all the ideas. Now it's too bad I'm stuck at work!

Industry within an Industry

You had mentioned sacrificing additional number of industries if you had a mill.  "But maybe not"

I am currently reading Lance Mindheim's book "How to Operate a Modern Era Switching Layout" and he has a section discussing that switching variety does not have to be tied to the physical number of structures on your layout.   

As an example, a paper mill has a variety of incoming and outgoing freight that requires different types of rolling stock to include "spotting" at different points.  (Wood chip cars won't be spotted at the same location where outgoing paper is picked up for example)

Even the same type of rolling stock may require spotting at different points.  (Tank cars but carrying different chemicals for example)

"So one complex, but multiple industries within this complex" 

Have you considered modeling just a paper mill complex or part of a mill complex to include an exchange yard for the mill?  

Also keep in mind some exchange and storage tracks for a large industry, like a paper mill, don't necessarily have to be within site of one another.  Something as simple as an industry sign at the yard complex, spilled product (wood chips for example), and just the type of rolling stock in the yard, can easily identify it's use without having to model the actual industry or even have a backdrop representation of the industry. 

Joe 

Joe

I had said earlier that my original plan was to have a full mill complex but I don't want the entire layout to just be a paper mill. I already had a layout like that once. Plus the layout is too large to be just a dedicated mill anyway. The mill wasn't even going to be the #1 industry on the layout. My 2 primary givens were actually coal operations and an engine servicing terminal.  That's where my problem originated from. I modeled a coal fired power plant that receives coal from a flood loader elsewhere on the layout and it ate into some of the space I wanted for the paper mill. Unfortunately as every modeler knows you can only fit so much into your allotted space. And the railroad's CFO (aka my wife) won't allow expansion at this time

I'm good with it though. I've had a chance to go down to the basement and look it all over and the more I start laying it out the more I like the hidden staging idea. I'll stick a mill photo up on the backdrop and call it done. 

What is the intention??

Is the intention to model a large paper mill that runs multiple product lines like Ft Howard Paper 

Kimberly-Clark?? Or a mill that just makes Newsprint or Cardboard from raw wood?.

Some mills have their own power plants using coal or "bio-mass" fuels

Some plant take in used "office waste"(shredded paper) or used cardboard boxes ,recycled into

pulp for new paper products or export to other countries.

You could model some of the plant and use hidden staging for the unmodeled part of the mill

that make cups,plates,tissue paper,etc,etc........

If you don't have op sessions

with your friends and operate by yourself, then let the local switch the mil.  You'll still be running the engine.  Even if this was a spot for another operator, it wouldn't take long to get the job done, and then what would that crew do for the remainder of the session?

"open-air staging"

Hi,

if - as previously mentioned - your paper mill is served by (one or) two trains per session:

You could have (one or) two tracks on your layout in front of the mill. The mill would be represented by mostly backdrop structures with just a little bit of 3D structures between the tracks and the backdrop.

During an operating session your local would leave the cars destined for the mill on those tracks, swapping loads for empties.

Between operations the plant switcher would pull those cars and shove them around the industry (which is not modelled).

As such, the (one or) two tracks basically act as an interchange between your railroad and the industry.

You could even use an old, defunct loco as a static model of the plant switcher which is parked on the industry side of the track.

You'd get to model a small part of the industry (rail-side gatehouse), you'd get the rail traffic generated by the industry and you'd have a destination for your wood chips. But you don't have to do a full model of the industry. And you can have those (one or) two tracks out in the open rather than hiding them behind the backdrop. Big industry, little space.

If you want to.

Have fun!

Open air staging

Dark2star you must be reading my mind. I was laying out sections of flex track last night just to see how different configurations would look and came up with the same idea. Hiding the tracks may be completely unnecessary. I'm just going to make the stub ends look like they disappear into the mill. I didn't consider sticking an engine in the scene though. I have an older Atlas S-2 with a broken gear box that could make a good static model. 

Backshophoss and Michael, this might get me banned from the forum (just kidding) but I model completely freelance. Ultra prototypical operations fascinate me but I have zero interest in actually doing it. I tried it on a club layout once and felt like I worked harder than I actually do at my real job. I'd rather just move cars around at a leisurely pace with minimal paperwork. I want the railroad to relax me rather than stress me out. And even though I tried hard not to, I have a couple of spots where the train passes through a scene twice (gasp!). Not to mention I have very, VERY limited time to devote to the layout. I've been trying the '15 minutes a night' written about in MRH once and my rare operating sessions are never more than an hour.

i really do appreciate everyone's ideas though. This place is like a railroad encyclopedia and each of you is one volume in the set. (I have a feeling some of the younger readers may not get that reference!)

Opportunity - A New Frontier for Realism

 I lived in Maine 40 years ago. When I would drive in the regions downwind from paper mills there was no need to see the mill; it was obvious what was causing the aroma - described by residents as the Smell of Money.
If you use staging to represent such a mill you could increase the realism of the experience by adding aroma. It has been described as like rotten eggs, or human gas, or maybe skunk emissions. The best description I have found is gas from a working septic tank. 
Modeling the aroma could be feasible. There are joke products available that stink like a skunk or like farts. Maybe rotten eggs or elsewhat. Beyond the challenge of dispensing the essence, there is the problem of not having it too oppressive in the entire room. Maybe just a little squirt at the site when the trains are working the mill? Or a scratch-and-sniff? It's kind of like smoke from locos filling the room with aroma, or a loco with TOO MUCH SOUND VOLUME that can be heard way across the room.

DrJolS

And give the Mill Switch Job to......

Give the paper mill switch job to the one guy that you want NEVER to come back to an op session.

Ha ha

That's taking prototype modeling to a whole new level!