tommypelley
I have recently completed track work on my small (2'× 9') switching layout. All track is hand laid and I used fast tracks jigs for the turnouts. My question is this, do I really need to gap both sides of the frog? On of the things that always drew me in with hand laid turnouts was the point rails flowing all the way to the frogs. I just think it looks better that way. Is there a real world practical reason to gap the point rails before the frog?
Reply 0
Ken Rice

Yes, there is a “short” reason

https://www.handlaidtrack.com/FTV-Turnouts-12

If you don’t gut the caps, all the rails are electrically connected (assuming you’ve built the turnout following their directions up to this point).

Reply 0
Joe Baker

Yes!

You definitely need the gaps to avoid a short circuit. The frog is where a positive polarity rail and negative polarity rail meet. There must be gaps on either end. It is also a good idea to power the frog once the gaps are in place to avoid short wheel base engines stalling on the frog.

You can slide some styrene between the gaps and glue it in place with cyanoacrylic adhesive, then file it down to the same profile as the rail. Once the rail is primed and weathered you won't be able to tell that there is a piece of styrene there and you've created a bullet proof way to avoid a short circuit due to rail expansion or movement.

Reply 0
tommypelley

I understand the gaps on the

I understand the gaps on the trailing side of the frog. But on the leading side with no gaps and the frog polarity switched by turnout position the point rails should have the correct polarity and in turn not only power the frog but the point rails as well. Unless I'm overlooking something
Reply 0
Cadmaster

Yes your overlooking

Yes your overlooking something,,,,, gap each side of the frog. 

 

Neil.

Diamond River Valley Railway Company

http://www.dixierail.com

Reply 0
rrfaniowa

There is an option for no gaps…

Tommy:

If you use Iowa Scaled Engineering's MRServo-3 to switch the points there is no need to gap the point rail side. 

http://www.iascaled.com/store/ModelRailroad/MRServo

The MRServo-3 changes the polarity at the mid-point of the travel of the points thus eliminating the need to gap the frog on the closure rails. Of course, you would still need to cut two gaps on the opposite side of the frog. 

Iowa Scaled discontinued the MRServo-3, but there still may be some stock, or if you contact them they may make enough for your layout. 

Hope this helps.

Scott Thornton

rebanner.png 

Reply 0
Ken Rice

You have a short unless you cut something

If you assemble the turnout per the fasttracks instructions, you have to do something to avoid a short.  You have two options - the preferred way that doesn't risk shorts with metal wheels running through the turnout is to gap both sides of the frog.  But instead of putting gaps in the closure rails (on the point side of the frog) you could cut the copper traces on the pc ties between the points and stock rails so that the points are isolated from both stock rails if you center them.

 

Reply 0
ctxmf74

 "But instead of putting gaps

Quote:

 "But instead of putting gaps in the closure rails (on the point side of the frog) you could cut the copper traces on the pc ties between the points and stock rails so that the points are isolated from both stock rails if you center them."

 

If I was going to do that I'd use screws or pins to attach the points to the throw bar. Cutting the copper so close to the solder joint would leave a weaker throwbar/point connection( not as much surface area holding copper to fiberglass)......DaveB 

Reply 0
tommypelley

To clarify, the terminology I

To clarify, the terminology I couldn't think of to explain what I'm considering is power routing turnout. If wired like the example outlined in the Paul Mallory track handbook (chapter 10, figure 8) then why would it cause a short
Reply 0
eastwind

But but DaveB,

But I thought the points rails were only soldered on the inside and there should be no solder on the stock-rail side of the points rail because that will interfere with the points fitting into the filed-out part of the stock rail. 

I must be misunderstanding the less-recommended option.

You can call me EW. Here's my blog index

Reply 0
ctxmf74

"I thought the points rails

Quote:

"I thought the points rails were only soldered on the inside and there should be no solder on the stock-rail side of the points rail because that will interfere with the points fitting into the filed-out part of the stock rail. "

   There's no solder on the stock rail side but the PC board extends under the rail so power will feed back from it. If you gap the copper on the stock rail side of the point you'll only have a small piece left holding the point to the throwbar so that's why I'd screw or pin the point to throwbar joint.....DaveB

Reply 0
tommypelley

If I'm understanding

If I'm understanding correctly, if I remove the copper from the space between closure rails and stock rails so they are isolated when centered that should eliminate the need for a break before make switch and still accomplish what I'm looking to do
Reply 0
eastwind

I think I understand

I think I understand your point. "by a small piece left" you mean a small piece of the copper top pcb layer attached to the pcb substrate - and your point is that the copper might detach from the "plastic" layer because it's only a small piece of copper (having been gapped both between the point rails and between the point and stock rails).

I hope the OP still has the option to take up the turnout and make the gap with a jeweler's saw instead of a cutoff wheel. From the video that does seem to make a finer gap. 

I wonder if anyone building turnouts tries to hide the gaps by filling them in with plastic or something and how they do that and how well it works.

You can call me EW. Here's my blog index

Reply 0
ctxmf74

"If I'm understanding

Quote:

"If I'm understanding correctly, if I remove the copper from the space between closure rails and stock rails so they are isolated when centered that should eliminate the need for a break before make switch and still accomplish what I'm looking to do"

  You'd have to eliminate all the copper from the throw bar from the points to beyond the stock rail so no power can come thru the open side of the points. Power routing turnouts had insulated throw bars with the points riveted on them instead of soldered to PC board. You also have to make the point to stock rail clearance wide enough that  the back of the wheels can't contact the open point. These type of turnouts went out of style as DCC became popular as the electrical contact was poor than points wired to their adjacent stock rails. Gapping before the frog is simpler and better performing.....DaveB

Reply 0
ctxmf74

"I wonder if anyone building

Quote:

"I wonder if anyone building turnouts tries to hide the gaps by filling them in with plastic or something and how they do that and how well it works."

 

  The common method is cut the gap with a dremel disc then glue in a small piece of plastic and when it dries trim the plastic to give a smooth wheel passage( takes a few seconds with an exacto knife and a file). I use black plastic and don't bother painting it but any rail weathering will make it disappear....DaveB

Reply 0
Michael Whiteman

I'm coming to this party really late Tommy but

I do understand your original question regarding the necessity to gap the point rail before the frog.  As you suspected the answer is NO.  Let me go on a little...........At this point you will have to feed this segment of track comprised of BOTH point rails and the frog itself with a wire that changes polarity depending upon the position of the turnout.  So far OK.  Where the problem arises is one of the points will be the opposite polarity to the outside stock rail which is only a sixteenth of an inch away.  When your train rolls through there any wheel that accidentally contacts both rails at the same time will cause a short circuit and I will not go into the possible troubles that will follow.  This is why EVERYONE gaps all four rails going into the frog.  Keep thinking outside the box, that's where great ideas come from.

Reply 0
Ken Rice

And get an ohmmeter or

And get an ohmmeter or continuity checker so you can buzz it out and see for yourself why it won’t work.  Or alternitively if you try the power routing turnout option, so you can see if you’ve gapped the copper on the pc ties that you need to.  Much quicker, easier, and less potentially smokey than hooking it up to your track power and seeing it anything runs on it.

Reply 0
tommypelley

Being an electrician I have

Being an electrician I have several VOMs. Was just looking at options for the solid point look I've always liked about hand laid turnouts.
Reply 0
tommypelley

So as I now see it, the best

So as I now see it, the best idea is to cut the gaps, fill the gaps with styrene, and jumpers to the stock rails to power the closure rails, and powered frogs switched by aux contacts controlled by switch machine. Is this correct?
Reply 0
Ken Rice

Yup.  Of course there are

Yup.  Of course there are variations on that theme too...

If your shortest wheelbase loco is long enough to not have more than half of it's pickups between the gaps around the frog, you might be able to get away with leaving the frog unpowered.  But solder a feeder to the frog just in case you decide you need to power it later.

If you weren't otherwise planning on using a switch machine, or your machine of choice doesn't have handy contacts, you can use one of the DCC frog power gizmos like the frog juicer to power the frog.

Reply 0
ctxmf74

"If your shortest wheelbase

Quote:

"If your shortest wheelbase loco is long enough to not have more than half of it's pickups between the gaps around the frog, you might be able to get away with leaving the frog unpowered.  But solder a feeder to the frog just in case you decide you need to power it later."

  I'm leaving the frogs unpowered on my new layout. I'm counting on keep alive capacitors in the engines to prevent any stalling . For unpowered frogs it's best to cut the gaps as close to the frog as possible. For powered frogs the gaps can be anywhere between the frog and the point hinge and any where between the frog and the fouling point on the diverging side( so the turnout to flex track joint in practice).

If one really wants power routing it's not hard to do. Just solder the points to a solid throw bar ,leaving a bit wider clearance so the wheel backs won't touch. The problem is the contact from stock rail to point is the only electrical connection so if it gets dirty the engines will stall.If you use switch motors they can feed the frog /points assembly and solve the stalling. Look for an old brass switch on ebay or a swap meet to see how they did it.My first layouts used Atlas brass switches with power routing as that's all they sold in those days......DaveB

Reply 0
tommypelley

My frogs will be powered and

My frogs will be powered and I already have bullfrogs in place for control and contacts for powering frogs. I am going to remove the ball on the bullfrogs and use servos to operate them by using a tam valley octopus 3 with their octo decoder. Giving me the ability to operate the turnouts locally or using jmri. My shortest loco is a Bachmann RS 3 with a econami decoder
Reply 0
greg ciurpita gregc

i don't gap the closure rail

yes, you need to cut any PC ties between the closure and stock rails

yes, you need to make sure the rails are properly gauged and there is adequate space between the closure and main rails so that the wheels don't short between them

greg - LaVale, MD     --   MRH Blogs --  Rocky Hill Website  -- Google Site

Reply 0
Reply