Initial Thoughts

I guess one of the first questions that comes up would be about their electrical conductivity. Is brass track really any less conductive along the rails than NS, nickle silver? Then if we consider just a single short section of brass rail as we might encounter by inserting a single brass turnout into a layout consisting of all NS track, is it going to make a great difference in terms of electric conductivity?....and particularly if we provide it with its own feeders as we might with DCC wiring??

I don't think the rail to rail conductivity is going to suffer.
 

Then how about the rail to wheel conductivity? I believe that if the rail heads are kept clean, as we strive for anyway, the single inserted brass turnout is not going to be that detrimental to the overall layout?

Appearance? Certainly many modelers would be concerned about the difference in the color of the brass track as opposed to the color of NS rail. But if the track (and particularly the track in that area) was weather to a significant degree, this color difference in the railheads might be acceptable for the 'other than rivet counters'.

Conversion? What about the possibility of sliding the existing brass track out of the ties, and sliding in new nickle silver rail? Might be cheaper and easier than custom building a new turnout??

mauvaise idée du jour

mauvaise idée du jour

Forget brass

Except if you have a bright boy on the hand don't use anymore brass track, they look may be right for your use but brass oxyde quickly lost good conductivity.

Brass track are of the middle-age of track production, forget them.

Nickel Silver rail are the standard for rail profile tomorrow, the reason is because the NS track oxyde less in same time and are much better conductor.

And custom build a turnout, is around one or two $ cost, just a few pc ties and a lenght of silver rail from ME or one you take of from a flextrack lenght and an NMRA gauge.

Fastrack offer these things, and also jigs to make turnouts, but you can build quiet easily a turnout without any jigs, there are numerous articles on the  site of MHR or MR who explain the process.

The first one will be, may be, not a first rate turnout, but it's really doable for all of us and more important you can made special turnout which are the right thing for your needs.

Drag new rail on a existing brass turnout, will work but you probably will have a lot of trouble to find the right profile of track and for sure parts like points and frog need to be rebuild, which probably is impossible to do without destroying parts of the old brass turnout.

Forget them, it's a lost of time, probably money and they would give you gray hairs if mixed with modern  turnouts.

I Wouldn't

Any section of brass rail is an invitation for a dead spot, regardless of how you install or wire it.  Plus, if you're going to rebuild a commercial turnout to the extent of replacing rail, you might as well scratchbuild a new one.  It seems like a false savings.

Brass Rail is not Necessarily So Bad

The greatest determining factor on whether brass rail will work in your situation is environmental.  I occasionally operate on a HO model railroad layout that has a large section of brass rail (constructed before nickle silver rail was available).  In our experience it operates flawlessly, and does not require frequent cleaning at all.

However, there are a number of factors that work together to make the brass rail reliable in this situation:

• The basement where the layout resides is humidity controlled to have low humidity year round.
• Every section of rail (without a soldered rail joint) has its own power feeder.
• The railroad is operated on frequently, and the brass section of the layout (large rail yard + industries) sees a lot of action.
• All of the rolling stock has metal wheels.  The metal car and locomotive wheels in conjunction with lots of frequent operating help to continuously polish the rails.

Many first time visitors to this particular model railroad comment on to the owner that all that brass rail should be ripped out.  However, it operates so well that there is no need to fix problems that aren't real problems.  If it weren't for all of the above factors working together, I suspect the brass rail would be much less reliable.

Thanks,

Stuart

Brass conductivity?

Brass metal conducts just fine,electrical components are made from it.  The problem is corrosion. Brass doesn't conduct well when it gets corroded. I used brass rails in the old days and they were fine except they turned green after a while and required frequent cleaning( why work boats avoid brass fittings) If you live in the Arizona desert and have brass turnouts you'll be fine, if Hilo Hawaii probably not .....DaveB

@ Stuart

In your case, I agree,  you can admit brass rail, because this layout run a lot of traffic, may be it will work in this case with brass rail.

But we must admit brass track comes from the middle-age of ready to run track production, and everybody agree to the fact about  track brass is not a good conductor if it oxyde a bit.

The factor you explain for this layout like humidity is rarely as well controled.

That's the reason why track producer have used NS rails when available.

Electrical conductivity remains even with NS rail our biggest problems to run train.

Avoiding lost of conductivity by any answer we could use is the best thing we could do to run our train, so brass is really not in the list to avoid worse electrical conductivity.

Much further, this kind of track is generaly out of the standard we use today on models, like  frog wheel space, radius of the diverging route, oversized ties and track and of course look.

 Sure some models of today could easily derails on this kind of turnouts because tolerance in the track  are out of the today standards; a check with an NMRA gauge could confirm this other  aspect of such old track for sure.

Brass track.

I use to have a layout with brass track. The thing about brass track is how it left the factory. A lot of brass track came uncoated. The uncoated stuff conducts electricity just fine, but the stuff with the lacquer or clear coat on it conducts less. Bachmann used some sort of lacquer on their brass track and they put really tight steel rail joiners on the end that cut through the lacquer and bite into the brass a bit. The problem is is that steel rail joiners for a lack of a better term, suck. Brass can and does work fine. If it didn't then brass engines wouldn't work at all. If you want to prevent corrosion then you can either lacquer it or paint it.

Also don't use abrasive methods or tools on it. You will have to wipe it down with a cloth and some kind of metal cleaner every now and then. Could even try some kind of metal polishes. I can't remember what I used as it was like 15 years ago. Most of the stuff you hear about brass track are overblown or straight up myths. The only real problem you face is wiring the old turnout to work like modern ones and lacquering or painting the entire thing except the tops of the rails. You could always set up a test set up and try out the switches before permanently putting them in place to see if you even like them to begin with. Also another thing you might want to consider is taking small magnet wire and soldering a piece to the outside of the brass rail to the outside of the nickel silver rail where they both join for better conductivity in case the rail joiner doesn't seem like enough.

Experimentation leads to conclusions or innovations. So just try what ever you like and see how it works for you. Like I say, try a test set up first and run trains over it before putting it on the layout for good.

Dimensions and corrosion

See the post from Marc above. Frog dimensions and shape of the rail may be different from current practice with nickel silver. 

If you're running DCC you will probably need to add gaps behind the frogs. Also wheels may short adjacent rails near the frog. This stuff is in the category "DCC friendly turnouts." You can SEARCH it on this site.

Strong suggestion: time to rely on testing instead of what you or any elsebody thinks or says. Set up a couple of turnouts with connecting track, clean the oxide off, and try running locos of different dimensions through the frogs both directions for each setting of the points.

If the turnouts are satisfactory, then it's time to address maintaining electrical connection between rails and wheels. Graphite properly applied can probably do this. Here is link to one thread that will help. You can SEARCH graphite on brass track on this site to find other threads.

https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/mrh-2015-05-may/fight-dirty-rails-with-graphite

DrJolS

Myths and Rumors

You can say that again.

I put this posting on several forums, and got quite a number of replies on each. I still have to go back and read some more. One of the most popular myths is that brass rail is LESS conductive than NS . I believe most knowledge points to the fact that brass rail is a better conductor than NS,...that is along the rails, NOT necessarily with our loco wheels. One gentleman even commented that he has seen brass rail utilized as a buss in DCC.

I'll have some more to add later. I suspected this subject might elicit a number of replies

It may be possible to fiddle

It may be possible to fiddle with brass and make it almost as reliable as nickle silver.  But it you put the same amount of fiddling into NS it will be even better.  There’s a reason track is all NS now.  Unless you’re really strapped for cash it seems crazy to intenionally use brass on a layout you want to run trains on.

Why has ho brass track not been made for decades?

Say no to brass

Before I knew better I bought a bunch of Atlas brass turnouts and installed them in my yard on my first Richlawn railroad.  They were a maintenance nightmare in that I had to clean them about every three days or locomotives wouldn't go through the turnouts.

Don't buy brass unless you like to clean them VERY often.

Explanations needed.

@Brian, you won't get straight answers out of any of the forums. Everyone remembers it as being bad because no one used it like how they use track today. Back in the day they didn't paint it or coat it with anything, they rarely cleaned it, they didn't wire things like we do today, yet they consider it bad anyway. Brass track served me well for many years. If brass track was bad and sucked at conductivity, then once again people are going to have to explain why brass engines still work and are the most sought after items. Even bare brass engines come from the factory with a clear coat on it to protect the metal. Brass tarnishes and corrodes like any metal. If you don't put oil or paint on steel it rusts. If you don't paint nickel silver rail it turns green.

Nickel silver rail isn't better than brass. It was over hyped by companies because brass prices started to go up back in the 90s. Brass could no longer be cheaply sold, yet NS could. So they pushed a hype campaign and told us how NS was the metal of the future and all it's miracle properties. NS was cheap then and it is cheap now. To make brass rail today would be costly. Don't get me wrong, NS rail isn't bad, but it's not the miracle product people claim it to be. Companies duped us and sold us a cheaper metal rail and we attached our myths and BS to it to make it feel like we weren't being ripped off. Is NS rail good? Yes. Is brass rail good? Yes. If you do all the techniques we do now in the modern time brass rail is just as viable as NS rail. The only thing NS rail has over brass is it doesn't tarnish when we touch it from our skin oils and such.

Why has ho brass track not been made for decades?

@ Jim
First off I must say there is no way I would consider laying brass track for an entire layout. As others have said its just too much to keep clean. So folks started to switch over to NS, and the turnout manufacturers followed suit.

But in some cases they did not continue to build all the same turnouts in NS. And/or they have ceased to build some of the turnout configurations in NS. That is sort of what prompted me to make this posting. I was looking thru my 'collection' of various brands of double-curve turnouts to see what radii selection I might have to chose from,...without resorting to custom construction.

I was surprised at the limited choices, and got to wondering what might have been made in the past, even in brass, that might be viable. And if I found something that had only been made in brass, could it be adopted to a modern layout of primarily NS.

One thing I noticed about most of my older double-curve turnouts is that they all had metal frogs (might be good for live frog DCC). Also a few of them had frogs built to incorporate the different curves,...don't see that these days. That prompted me to think about the possibility of replacing the brass track with NS.

I also found some old Atlas brass double-curves that look as good as the day they were made (bright and shiny),...and they have definitely not been pampered by proper environmental storage,...in fact they have been in a HOT,  HUMID cargo trailer sitting in direct FL sunshine for the past 4 years.

I also have some Roco turnouts (made in Austria) that I consider VERY well made turnouts.

Would I consider placing a single brass specialty turnout in trackplan near the aisle? Yes.
Its going to represent such a small area of track, and its going to be easy to reach with a brightboy.

Brass,

Brass, like Nickel-silver, oxidizes when exposed to oxygen in the air. Nearly all metals or metal alloys do to some extent. 

The joker is that oxidized NS alloy conducts electricity relatively well. Oxidized brass, on the other hand, does not conduct electricity so well. If the oxidization layer on brass track isn't cleaned frequently, current doesn't get to the wheels reliably (at least in HO and smaller scales. Larger scales I don't know).

A comprehensive materials properties book will give you specifics.

Here's another thought - if

Here's another thought - if you're running dead rail (i.e., battery-powered locos), brass, aluminum, steel and nickel silver is all the same for electrical performance (unless you have train detection through the rails).

@ Pruitt.....

I can only agree with you, brass track is " just track" for our little trains meaning, our trains can run on it, that's for sure.

The problems as you say, is all the metal oxydises with oxygen.

Some metal lost electrical conductivity, other not or in a level which don't really affect electrical continuity.

Brass when oxyded lost, in a non acceptable level for our trains, his electrical conductivity because of the chemical composition of the oxyded coat.

As many other mentionned in this post, clean brass is a good conductor, but we all know cleaning track is not an easy task,and for brass you need to do it after a few days of not use.

As I say, if you are asking for to use brass track, the best investment is a "bright boy", or similar cleaning  device to clean your track  nearly every time you want to run your train.

NS track lost his conductivity a bit when oxyded but at a level which allow our trains to run quiet well.

And I repeat why such determination to use such kind of track which come out of the middle-age of  model track???

Outside the electrical dilemma, which I find, is really enough to avoid the use of brass track, is the running qualities of such old track, as I mentionned in my previous answer.

Don't forget the model trains are going to go near what is called , "fine scale", this includes small wheels with small flanges and the first consequences, is the need of a track with sharp tolerances to say NMRA basic tolerances to run well.

This is a matter of fact with the new production track from Atlas, Peco, Tillig, just to mention a few.

These old brass turnouts are out and far from basic NMRA tolerances, our model trains which are produced since 2000 have all wheels set with basic NMRA tolerances and the wheels, first with RP25 countours, now are over NMRA standard, saying close to the scale, nearly Proto countours

None of these models will negociate without troubles such turnouts; about this subject I just try to run one of my N scale Bachmann consolidation this morning to see how it perform over old track ( with gauge wheels checked with a NMRA Nscale gauge, a new locomotive buy one month ago).

No mercy !!!! She run like a charm on my Fastrack turnouts but she can't run through a Fleischmann Picollo turnout without derailling, problems come from the frog where the narrow wheels have to much space with the small flanges and with the motion mouvement, they go over the frog! Same try and same disaster with an Arnold Rapido turnout, which are finer than a Fleischmann one.

A rapid check with the NMRA gauge in the frog area reveals nearly a play of 1.5mm over the minimum, which is really a abyss for the fine scale wheels even in N scale.

These old track have tolerance for wheels which were in HO, Nscale and O scale named like "pizza cutters", these wheels were largely over minimalist RP25 countours, they were the kind of wheels offered when these turnouts were produced.

Modern wheels set will give you deraillement for sure in the frog because of to much opening in the frog, to much opening with the gardrails, points which are not close and sharp on the stock rail  and with a look out of any considerations by today standards.

Meaning, we need to use modern turnouts with the now offered models and I don't speak about DCC for which these old turnouts aren't for sure friendly, and beside the fact we will see more accurate wheels set in the future on current models, which need absolutely accurate track to run.

All the modifications old brass turnouts need to reach new standard ( and probably will never reach), are a big waste of time knowing they keep the brass oxyde problem in addition anyway.

Just my opinion

Brian, if you want to

Brian, if you want to reliably run trains, you might want to steer away from questionable materials like brass, turnouts numbers and curve radii that are right on the edge of what your rolling stock and locos can tolerate, and similar things.  A bit less track to more forgiving standards may increase your overall enjoyment of the layout.

Stay woke

Yup, we've all been fooled.  Big Nickel has tricked us into believing a product that works better due to the lack of an insulating oxide is in fact better.  Perhaps one day we'll all pull the wool from our collective eyeballs, but don't count on it.

Do you know if there is a

Do you know if there is a source for the prices of the nickel silver and the brass?

Still use it!

I still use it and do not have the dead spot issues that everybody talks about.  Yes I do keep a track eraser at hand at all times but to me that's just part of routine maintenance.  I have built several custom turnouts using brass rail as I am replacing all the old snap switches as they wear out.  Brass rail is not bad, it just requires a bit more work.  I say "go for it".

My Search for a Variety of Double Curve Turnouts

I sure wish I had found one with an outer radius of at least 24". I'm trying to configure the head of a yard ladder system like this with curves of at least 22" or better,...

***********************************************
Two Dble-Curve Turnouts at Head of Yard Ladder, the Additional 24" Curve into Peninsula Area

I was playing around with this idea.

Seeing as how my single dbl-curve turnout didn't bring that yard track out to the proposed edge of my shelf, I might well put in another dbl-curve, and end up with an additional yard track for storage or that might serve my steel mill, etc. So maybe 2 dbl-curves at the head of the ladder. .

If I should experience any derail problems with these Peco dble curves, turns out I have a number of other brands I collected over the years,....Atlas, Roco, Casadyo. ...And lastly they will be very close to the aisle for accessibility.

Will fooling around with this idea, I wondered if I might provide for a 24" radius track to enter that peninsula area? This is what I came up with do far. The tape measure lying there is set at 30", my initial idea for shelf depth on that side of the layout. The white paper cutout represents the aisle space, also 30" wide.

The two parallel tracks on the upper left side would serve the turntable and the curved route with steam engine access, and would go under the a coaling tower along there. The addition 'outside chute' (third rail) of the coaling tower would serve the ladder straight for those smaller steam switchers.

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/interesting-track-plan-tupper-lake-faust-junction-12208132

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/interesting-track-plan-tupper-lake-faust-junction-12208132

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/interesting-track-plan-tupper-lake-faust-junction-12208132

I need to update this

I need to update this discussion with my 2 particular brass switch utilizations,...maybe later today.

My memory bank is certainly declining. I just found another subject thread where I documented (with photos) the 2 situations where I want to use brass turnouts. See this page   
https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/most-reliable-3way-turnout-12209676