Maybe redo

Can you redo a small section of 2 -3 ft instead that won't take a lot of work and isn't as extensive as a staging yard and engine servicing? Would he agree to work under your supervision and not take any short cuts?

Jack

Yes, maybe

Thanks, Jack.

That is a little smaller than I had in mind, but that supports my thought on the proper way to guide him.

What I wanted to achieve was having several switches that are trouble free along with some length for a run.

He likes coal trains (what are those, anymore?) but he has no place to store a unit train. So, i was thinking a long and narrow shelf. I really want him to go through his chipboard wall (it is a large outbuilding) with a couple of small holes, but he doesn't want to do that... Anyone have good pics of this sort of thing (small staging 2-4 tracks ) so he can see it?

Jack, what do you recommend we build in 2-3 feet that will give him an example of smooth running?

well, you brought up my suggestion

... of a shelf layout. You didn't mention scale, but I assume HO. 

[EDIT:]  How about a narrow unit to be added into a TOMA set... this narrow (shelf) unit would end up as part of the continuous run, if desired, or as one end of staging, or...  I'm thinking 96" x 18"   with the 30" of a 4x8 reserved for the next unit.

BTW Any loco will run badly on bad track... my first layouts featured curves that did the trick!

but what has he in rolling stock and inventory.... he wants track for how many cars, and structure (or available space) for how many square feet?   By all means avoid up & downgrades until the basics are do-able.

Have him visit this site and research tools that have been recommended.  That alone can be an eye-opener (you laid track Without This??) 

I'm certain this thread will generate good reading if our fellow modelers chime in without condescending tone... and Joe may get fodder for another book!

Small examples

Kirk

We could use some more info here.

How big is this layout? Scale? Is the track laid on anything besides foam or is there cork also? How much scenery is there?

Having a flat stretch would be easier to fix.

To answer your main question I would look for an industrial siding or 2 or 3 that are fairly close together. Or a industrial siding that branches off from a passing siding and fix the whole stretch. If that is pretty long then the track leading into the passing siding and up past the industrial siding and fix the industrial track also.

Jack

Doubling the hill

So what makes you think he will listen to you the second time if he ignored you the first time?

Has he asked for help?

Is it a matter of fixing or relaying track?  Is it a matter of track alignment/track plan?  Is it the "benchwork" bad?  Can what he has built be saved?

If he has a lot of time/money/pride invested in the current layout, telling him its a "chainsaw" layout and he just needs to scrap it probably isn't going to be received well.  You might need to just offer to troubleshoot the problems, and then after laboriously fixing one or two, wonder out loud that its taking so much time and resources to fix each problem, would it be better to start over and start on a "fresh sheet of paper".  Make it his idea.

Once again, if he's not going to take your advice then it really doesn't matter if he starts over, probably not going to have a materially better result.

BINGO !!!

This is it in a nutshell... I am concerned about turning him off. I mean, I have modeled for 30 years. I know A LOT more because of simple trial and error (perhaps, that is what we call experience?)

He doesn't know what he doesn't know. I am not sure if he understands that track and the benchwork needs to be the thing he spends most of his time and resources perfecting.

This is an HO scale layout. As you can see, he wanted to use some old cabinets as a base. I was totally fine with that and instructed him to build an open grid benchwork that would sit on top of the cabinets. We got that, sort of... He used pressboard as a base. I told him from the start that was going to cause trouble because it bends, twists and is susceptible to moisture and humidity. I think he saw the cost of Birch plywood and was like, "NO WAY in heck".  He has seen everyone using the poly extruded styrene and wanted to copy that. It is not what I prefer because I think it ends up being rather noisy. It is his layout... He liked the Woodland scenics risers, etc. Somewhat intrigued by those, I let it roll.

Code 100 is way more forgiving than Code 83. I tried and I tried to talk him out of 18" radius curves but I gave in after he let me do some "redneck easements" through the use of gradually reducing track radii. In other words, a curve will start with a piece of flex, joined to a 24" or 22" before it goes into an 18". I think you can see it in the picture (we have not glued ties back in under track joints). That seems to work pretty good, but we still have problems with long engines and cars. I had reminded him several times that he needed to run VERY short rolling stock and four axle locos, etc. Somehow, a Tunnel motor ended up on his layout. I told him it is never going to make the curves and to not waste any money on it by putting in a decoder, etc. We talked about the length of the circus cars he wanted to run and how they would not go around 18" curves easily. Well, now we are here and he is having problems with those. I shrug my shoulders and just try to remind him that we talked about this. The worst problem is that the woodland scenics foam roadbed has A LOT of give and that track is not cross leveled very good. I mean, it dips and twists and I have absolutely no idea why. The Bachmann steamer would not stay on the track. Diesels perhaps are having trouble, I just can not see it.

The Woodland Scenics risers (I do not use this method) seemed to look pretty good and make smooth gradients, but something has happened when they join the pink extruded polystyrene. There is a little section that "bumps" from a 2% grade (woodland scenics) to about a 5% grade (you can see this area in the right side of the photo). It is simply a problem with not sanding the pink stuff enough to get a smooth transition. I showed him how the couplers moved up and down and explained it was going to be a problem for any rolling stock that does not have couplers exactly lined up with each other.  It needs to have been done correctly the first time. Now, it needs to be torn up and redone. At the end of the day, this is not my layout.  I can't and I won't build it for him.

I insisted that he use PECO switches on the mainline instead of Atlas Code 100 switches. Yet, he added a few Atlas switches for some sidings. I was like, "Dude... We talked about the quality differences..." Of course, the old Atlas #4s were giving him trouble.

From the start, I advocated an around the walls layout (it is just my favorite style and it can yield the most generous curves). I suggested a lift out bridge for access to the center. For whatever reason, he decided that was not what he wanted. I am not sure I understand that decision, yet. In the current configuration, the layout is yielding some serious access problems.

Since he likes those coal trains and a 50' car will go around 18" curves, I am trying to focus on those. My earlier suggestion for a "staging yard" or an engine facility on open grid benchwork, probably no wider than 24" would fit along the wall you can see in the photo. He would be able to have a very smooth running area, a place to store all of those coal cars and then we could slowly rebuild the other parts of the layout. The biggest problem with that is that we are further limiting access to the layout and that is already causing problems.

Looking for recommendations...

Tag-Team...

Dear Kirk,

Sounds to me like the keystone issue is not the confluence of (bad) design and build decisions your young friend has made, (not that they aren't significant, but bear with me...)

the issue is you are feeling like your are solely trying to steer him right,
he does not have sources of info (beyond your-say-so) which actually teach what he needs,
(and teaching is not just telling, but includes supporting examples and follow-thru),

and all of your time/effort/advice is simply wasted breath...

...which I totally understand and appreciate...

...so, what's the solution?

Get Help....

...by which I mean, 

- Get more than just yourself into the mix as a "subject matter expert"
(are there fellow-modellers of peer-level with yourself willing to help the student?
If he gets the same reliable advice from more than one source, it should start sinking-in as
"...this advice works for many people, so it may-well be worth heeding...")

- Guide the student towards sources of _known_verified_reliable_ info
(Local MR club? TrainMasters.TV?)

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/mrh2009-01/curve_insights

https://trainmasters.tv/videos/2014-09-4-tmtv-september-2014-edition-act-iva

https://trainmasters.tv/videos/2018-08-5

https://trainmasters.tv/videos/2014-10-4-tmtv-october-2014-edition-act-iv

https://trainmasters.tv/videos/2017-04-3

- Recognize that Budget and Sticker-shock is obviously a big driver for the student,
there are valid reliable options that sit between 
"...the cheapest/crappiest chipboard..." (a la what he's using now),
and
"...birch ply which would do a fine cabinent-maker proud..."
(Yes, it's "bulletproof", but when I see descriptions like
"... Birch is a premium exterior-grade Raw Birch plywood and the premier product for all Architectural and High-end joinery applications ...", I can't help but think there are structurally-equivalent cost-effect options available...)

Kirk, you should not need/have to shoulder the effort to bring this foetus-level modeller "up to speed" alone,
calling in reinforcements "spreads the load" and helps maintain your personal sanity...

...and worst-comes-to-worst, recognise that no matter how enthusiastic the words coming out of the student's face are, if they are not willing to take-instruction and learn,
then the resulting failures (which you accurately predicted and counselled-for ahead-of-time), 
are Not Your Fault...

Happy Modelling,
Counsel your friend to Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

MRH Forum and Mag

Maybe your friend should visit this forum. So much quality info here it can only help. While your friend is at it maybe he should subscribe!

Thanks, everyone !

Yep. He is a pretty good darn guy and what I want for him is a flawlessly operating layout. I think he is happy just watching the trains go round and round, which is totally fine. Sometimes, I like to do that very thing too. It actually surprised me when he added a switch (albeit an old junky Atlas Code 100) to add another spur for some cars he had.

What I do not want him to do is give up on it and tear it out or just not use it. As a beginner, I could see him getting frustrated and just stopping with a dim view regarding this fun hobby!

The thought of having others help with the process has crossed my mind. I don't have any real close friends that could help, so it might be odd just to invite random folks over. Maybe that is better left until we are almost in a full stall at low altitude? There is a good local train show in November and maybe that could be a good time and place to invite someone else ?

Finding us MR's

Where are you at Kirk? Could be someone on here would be able to help if close enough.

Possible ways to find folks...poster at train show might work.

Put a notice on meet up looking for help or to start a small round robin group.

There is a fairly new email neighborhood bit called Next Door Neighbor. It is suppose to cover local neighbor hoods in most good sized cities. All sorts of news, events, business promo's. I have seen folks trying to find like minded people on it.

Flier at LHS if you have one. And LHS owner might just be willing to recommend someone.

Down side to all of these is you may just end up with folks who claim to be interested and are really just looky lou's.

Jack

Sometimes....

Sometimes, you have to learn the hard way.  If he has the fever for model railroading, he can over come ant problem.  As for the problems he is having, don't assume its all the trackwork.  A tunnel motor will run best on larger curves, definitely not on 18" in curves. Best to learn the basics before clear cutting everything.  RTR cars may be ready to run, but not necessarily run well.  Have you taught him to check wheel gauge?  Also, do his choice of freight cars run toward extra long cars? My first serious locomotive was an Athearn F45 in big sky blue Great Northern.  Fell in love at the hobby shop ( I was 12) and bought it and a string of 86' Hicube boxcars.  When I tried them on my Tyco figure eight over and under, I learned about curves and car length.  That lead to a revamp on the ol' 4x8 and new standards of track.  I was fortunate enough to have the guidance of a veteran modeller and hobbyshop owner to learn about car prep and trackwork.  He also sponsored me into the Buffalo Model Railroad Club and my education continued.  My second layout was Atlas sectional track which if laid properly actually performs adequately.  I was a young bull-headed novice, (as opposed to an old bull-headed journeyman) but once the track was properly aligned, the cars gauged and weighted properly,  once the train set AHM and Tyco stuff gone or modified, I had few derailments, and less desire to make the mistakes again.  Sorry long-winded way of saying, get some fellowship, visit local train shops, and be willing to listen.  To Bob Schuh, Eric Brunger, Bruce Aikman, Dave Birmingham and all the fellows who took the time take a youngster under their collective wings and teach, I say a belated thank you.  To newbies, only believe half of what the blogs say, learn to observe and don't be afraid to ask questions, and don't be afraid to be wrong.  Peace, Bill

How serious is he?

That is a really good question and I am having a hard time assessing that. I know he has watched one YouTube video after another. He wants to recreate scenes from his past which is the same thing I do. He probably does not like trains as much as I do, but I am not sure anyone does.

I spent a little time with him this afternoon and we fixed issues at two of the good Peco turnouts. The steamer runs through both switches with little to no issues. It seems there were some gauge issues and I am not sure what happened, other than him being new at this whole soldering game. He told me he did not think his iron was getting very hot, but it seems to work. So ????

It was a great chance to discuss wheel gauge and track gauge and how all of the factors play in. He did get to see how poorly talgo trucks operate, especially when trying to push the cars. I think he was a little surprised as I explained the various forces between the couplings. With 18" radius turns, I am not sure how much luck we are going to have body mounting couplers on Athearn heavyweights. So, this will be something else to address.

Slowly, we are fixing issues. It became his idea that there is more than one place where the track needed to be cut, removed and redone. That was difficult for him and it seemed like his confidence was completely shot. He just was not real happy with this realization. He said, "you know, I thought I had done a really good job on it, but until I saw how it just wouldn't run... "  I really didn't say anything but I still felt about 2 inches tall. It was uncomfortable for sure. But,  I guess true friends are supposed to provide the appropriate medicine?

The first step...

I may have missed it in an

I may have missed it in an earlier post, but what is the age of this person?

Middle age guy!

Deane,

He is a middle aged guy. I am younger than he is which makes it even tougher. I told him not to worry, we would get this thing going.

He said something odd in response... I don't even remember what it was but my response was, "Man, I have been doing modeling for the past 30 years. There is plenty of plastic in the recycle bin from all of my not so successful attempts !" Take it easy and have fun with this stuff.

The more I think about this

The more I think about this situation, the more I think it has to come from within him.  He, or anyone else, needs to have a set of standards in mind that they want to meet, then set out to learn how to achieve them.  I doubt you, or anyone else, can implant those standards in someone.

I think we often look at the work of others, and think "that's what I want to be able to do".  The photos on the various model railroad forums provide a lot of that inspiration.

Sometimes

Many people have never had to learn the need for patience and/or precision. It can be very hard to get them to understand that, in this case, something that looks very much like a model railroad will not actually perform like a model railroad. With a small level and a track gauge, you can probably work your way through a few of the trouble spots and visually demonstrate the small errors that accumulate and cause unreliability.

Don't know how you can put this exactly, but someone who can afford packaged foam risers can also afford decent plywood. I'm unconvinced that any sort of foam is a suitable underlayment for anything but a short-term display, but that's just me. Some people seem to have made it work.

Is there a wife or

Is there a wife or significant other in the picture? And if so, do they support this endeavor? Because if they do, then getting that person on your side (and therefore on his side) will probably help.

Yes. Indeed the wife saved me !

The fact that pressboard was used was so frustrating to me. I wanted him to use my method (open grid with spline roadbed)  and I really wanted him to use curves that were at least 24" or even more broad. For reference, I use 42" where visible and 36" where it is not visible. I like long cars and body mount couplers. Hard to imagine that a 36" is only 3 times the length of a 90' TOFC and 42" is only 3 1/2 times the size. Sorry, I just can't do 60" which is 5 times, but it would be nice!

My method may not be the best, but it seems to work pretty darned good. Over time, I have spent hundreds of dollars on that ridiculously priced Birch or Oak Plywood. It makes such straight and smooth dimensional lumber, I can't find anything that beats it. Even though it is a real pain, I am finding A LOT of success with masonite spline as well. It is very time consuming and tedious to glue them all together, simply dreading the building of my helix. It is gonna be big and it is gonna take some time for sure.

As we move on in this process, I think he is getting a better idea that museum quality models for this hobby are not exactly cheap. A year or so ago, I asked a question about kitty litter ballast. I use Arizona Rock on my track, but he saw a YouTube video on using kitty litter. Yep, I just about died laughing when he mentioned it. He now realizes that the proper thing to use is real rock from either Arizona rock, Scenic Express, or crushing and cleaning his own.

He has now experienced cheap sound decoders versus much more expensive ones. Of course, his favorite locos are the ones with the expensive decoders. We were talking today and he said he found a sale on Bachmann engines but he thinks he is done buying lesser quality locomotives... WHAT ???  Maybe, he is listening ! It just took a little trial and error.

The wife got me through the, "Sorry dude, you're gonna have to tear these sections out and do them again !" Had she not stepped in, we might not have a model railroad today !