Managing expectations...
Dear Shannon,
As an Aussie exhibition layout builder and exhibitor for over 2 decades
("Swans Crossing", "Leigh Creek", "Red Stag", "Muskrat Ramble" "Nine Mile", "Toorong", "Stringybark Creek", "Corrimal", "Brooklyn : 3AM", et al),
there are a few things about the situation you describe which concern me.
- Exhibiting is not for the faint of heart, it's equal parts sprint + marathon + survival-of-the-fittest.
(and involves soooo much more than just rocking-up at the venue for a couple of hours to run trains!).
- X2 for building a multi-module show layout
- x2 for building it as a club
(Many Gunnas and few Do-ers,
many forceful opinions not-founded-in-fact,
not enough leadership or consensus to achieve a practical and usable, let alone enjoyable result)
- "... Powering the whole layout in DC while offering each of 15 members the opportunity to control his own train ..."
is technically do-able, as long as all 15 members do not want to drive their individual trains simultaneously...
(is there anywhere on the QLD rail network with a "15 track wide racetrack" configuration?)
In short, let's nail-down and quantify what the 15-clubmember's "expectations for the layout" are before we go making any "100% commitment, can't turn back" decisions...
Backing-up a bit, what is the actual theme/mission/primary-purpose for this layout? Is it:
- To accurately depict (within group-agreed-tolerances) a given prototype location/operation?
- To depict a plausible "could have been" given prototype location?
- To present "something that looks railway-like"?
- To act as a "skill-building" opportunity for the club-members?
(IE unlikely to be suitable as an exhibition layout)
- To act as a "15 lane/route racetrack" so every member can just "turn up and run their trains" whenever they feel soo inclined "without anyone getting in my way to telling me what to do"?
(with the full understanding that such a layout is unlikely to successfully depict any prototype railway location or operation from anywhere in the world)
For the sake of this discussion, if you can answer and flesh-out the details of the above questions, that will at least give the collected-brain-trust some context on which to frame their
"which control-system would be most-appropriate,
and what positives/negatives an analog solution might present" responses...
Assuming a typical "club-owned show layout", I suspect you're aiming for a "staging round the back, long plausibly-prototype scene out the front" oval type thing. The number of main-lines running thru the scene are the obvious limiting-factor as to "how many trains can freely run at any given moment". Onstage passing loops allow a train to seek "temporary refuge" out of the way of the "main-line parade", but arguably cannot be counted as "running" while they are in-the-loop (the owner/operator may well have a throttle in-hand, but cannot go-anywhere until "the main is clear").
Equally, a big multi-track (parallel) thru-running staging yard allows places for trains to be placed-on/removed-from the layout, ready to fire, but may not satisfy the owner/operator who "just wants to drop-train-on-track-and-run as they feel led" (I don't have to answer to anyone, I'm a clubmember and I should be able to run My Train whenever and Wherever I Want To...")
SO, lots of Deep Questions to think-about and Answer before anyone starts building anything...
In the meantime, to answer your questions:
Quote:
We have no issue with Anderson powerpole connectors but cant figure why we'd need the trailer plugs for DC operation
The "Anderson" connectors
(which are what exactly? Never been-aware of seeing these in Aust, at least not at any Jaycar I've ever visited?)
provide power for the "track buss" which parallels the physical rail-pairs.
The "2 pin trailer connector" is meant as an "accessory power buss", a seperate source of XX Volts for powering anything "not track-power-related".
(Presumably could be control related EG IR detectors and turnout-control circuits,
OR
Not-Mission-Critical stuff like structure lighting, trackside sound modules, animation motors, etc)
In a "Analog powered layout", the "Accessory buss" could well be 16VAC or similar, to provide INPUT power to analog throttles (or walkaround analog throttle plug-in points), wherever they may be around the layout.
(16VAC IN --> Throttle --> Track power OUT --> Respective "Track buss" or "Block Buss")
Quote:
I can't seem to get my head around:
Powering the whole layout in DC while offering each of 15 members the opportunity to control his own train short of going to a remote controller .
"Powering the whole layout" is as easy as:
- obtaining a given 16VAC PSU or suitable amperage,
- plugging that PSU into the "Power Buss" (I've "repurposed" the "Accessory Buss") which is continuous around the layout
Therefore, any throttle (or other circuit) which is connected to the "Power Buss" will receive 16VAC when the PSU is plugged-in and turned-on. (Of course, this requires someone to "do the calcs" and establish what the current-draw in amps of the layout will be, and how-brawny that 16VAC supply needs to be).
The bigger issue of "individual control" is that the common 16VAC is feeding n throttle circuits,
where each of the n throttles has it's own "track out",
and all of those n "track out" wires then need some way of being connected N> 1 to any given desired section (block) of track...
...My head's starting to hurt,
- 1> n (PSU> Throttle power distro),
- into n> n (n Throttle track-out> n Block busses)
- into n> 1 (n block busses> single given track-section/block)
Can you see how, while it's possible,
the ammount of wiring (esp jumping accross section joints),
and switchgear (which may be either "distributed" around the sections of the layout, or corralled at a central "power-control" point),
completely echoes the "user interface pain" which lead to the development of DCC?
NB that the complexity of the wiring and switchgear is also significantly determined by the layout track-arrangement. As above, there's little point having 15 "assignable analog throttles" if the capacity for "simultaneously running trains" is limited to, for example, a scene which has only 2-continuous mainlines...
(The recent show-circuit arrival "Murray Bridge" is a gorgeous rendition of a SA mainline scene, but with only 1x thru-track "main line", it's limited to "one train operating at a time", no matter how many staging-tracks there are, or how many throttles are "plumbed in").
Quote:
I can't seem to get my head around:
Most locos are athern, auscision and similar modern diesels in australian proto colours but are not fitted with anything like the ezapp control from Bachman?
...and I'd have to ask, what draws you (or the club-members) to "EZApp" (aka "BlueRail" http://bluerailtrains.com )?
Yes, there are "direct-to-train" control systems available,
which would appear to allow "each club-member to run their own train"
(on any form of rail-power, DCC, analog, whatever...as long as there's some form of volts at rails, the train will run)",
- DelTang (Battery or rail-power with direct-to-loco radio control)
http://www.deltang.co.uk/trains.htm
- RailPro by Ring Engineering
https://www.ringengineering.com/RailPro.htm
/>
- BlueRail (aka EZApp)
http://bluerailtrains.com/
but these are just "other possible solutions" to the problem, not a "magic bullet",
("Normal" DCC using NCE, Digtrax, or even JMRI/WiiThrottle will allow "each clubbie to run their own train" too!).
What most "direct to train" command systems will oblige each modeller to do, is:
- install an appropriate receiver module in each loco
($$$, time, skills x how-many-locos-to-be-equipped)
- obtain and wrangle enough "throttle handsets" to run the trains,
inc handling Wireless range/frequencies/swamping and "battery charging/changing regime".
(most contemporary systems use a Droid or iWhatever phone/device, so the argument is "most people have a suitable hardware device that can be used as a 'throttle' in their possession already"),
- and most-importantly, esp for older modellers,
is whether the rank-n-file clubbies are willing to use a primarily knob-less, button-less, touch-screen-only interface... (Lemme save you the suspense, no, many of them are not....)
...oh, and we've gotten a long way away from the perceived "simple analog control" the gathered club-members were first thinking (romantically reminiscing) of....
SOOO, assuming you're still reading,
I strongly reccomend proceeding as-follows:
1- Firstly, establish what the layout is actually required to do
(see the "what's the theme?", "why is it being built?", and "what do the individual club-members expect to get-out-of-the-experience?" questions at the top of this post)
2 - Second, offshooting from the 1st, establish what the there and trackplan is of the layout
(both "onstage scene" and "staging", speaks to "simultaneous train movement" capability of the layout, and thus what the chosen control-system has to deal with).
3 - Then, after working out the "needs and design parameters" of the proposed layout,
establish what kind of $$$ and Electronics appetite the collected club-members have.
(Having spent AUD$x00s on their locos and rollingstock,
how much are they willing to spend to achieve "every owner gets to run their own train" on the track-arrangement proposed?
Furthur, if a solution such as "RailPro" takes their fancy,
who in the club is willing/able to perform the required receiver installations?
and what's the comparative-effort vs installing "normal" known decoders and DCC gear?).
3a - and their preferred "throttle human-user interface"?
(Are they OK with Touchscreens, or do they demand knobs and buttons/switches?
Does chosing a given solution force them into using a given "throttle handset" format?)
I hope this helps, happy to discuss furthur once we have more of "diagnostic info" to work from...
Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr
Sydney, Aust
PS if "Analog control" is still the true front-runner, then it's worth noting that "tethered walkaround" throttles can be built quite cheaply (AUD$10 for the circuitry components, AUD$30 all-up inc 4-wire 10metre long tether),
and is going to allow much better "exhibition crowd interaction" and "operator gets to view and enjoy running their train thru the scene" operations than using "fixed-position" throttles...