wharf pilings

Dee,

After reading your post I did a search on bing. There is no set standard for piling depths. However, is does depend on how much weight you plan to put on the structure. Hope this helps.

http://www.aimuedu.org/aimupapers/Docks_Bulkheads_and_Wharfs_2013.pdf

https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Posts-in-the-Water-for-a-Dock-or-Pier

Charlie

pilings

Hi D,   There's a long wooden wharf  in Santa Cruz, it's 2,750 feet long, with about 4,450 piles. built around 1913  with treated douglas fir piles. The water out at the end is around 30 feet deep, the wharf freeboard is about 23 feet and the piles are driven about 15-20 feet into the seafloor. So about 70 foot long piles are needed near the end and maybe 50 foot piles closer to shore. I recall seeing shipments on flatcars that were as long as the piles so probably saw the shorter piles being delivered. For longer piles that would over hang they could add an empty flatcar at each end of the loaded flatcar to allow for the overhang. .....DaveB

I cut some 16 inch diameter

I cut some 18 inch diameter wharf pilings at 50 and 70 foot lengths. I still have to  to stain them to depict whatever was applied to them to make them waterproof.

My father-in-law that worked at Algoma Steel in the 50s, made me this drawing. The top drawing is what DaveB mentioned and I like it, but I'm short a flat car. Also how would I do it when the cars have vertical handbrakes?

@Charlie, Very helpful,

@Charlie,

Very helpful, thanks for the links.

Pilings

My experience is in steel pilings (highway bridge construction), but it may apply here. Typically core drilling is made before a structure is built.The cores would tell you how much mud and silt you would have at the bottom of the body of water before you would hit some sort of substantial rock bed. Based upon the type of rock a geotechnical engineer would determine how far to drive the steel piles into the rock. In a low area (no fills, mountain sides, etc) such as a river or a bay, I would guess maybe 10-15 feet of mud and silt and perhaps drive another 5-10 feet into bedrock.

So if we design for maximum tide at 53 feet and ad 12 feet for silt and perhaps another 5 feet for rock, we're looking at 70 feet. This would typically come in a 50 foot length and a 20 foot length splice-welded in the field.... buuuuuut, you would be using wood.

Without any professional experience driving wood piles, my guess would be that by the 1950's, the wood piles may be typically inserted into predrilled holes. A cofferdam would be constructed, water pumped out, then a drill mounted on a barge would drill into the bedrock. A crane would lower the wood into each hole and perhaps a quick-setting grout would be placed in there as well. Likely still 70 feet long wood piles  There may have been some specialty cars to haul loads that long. Perhaps the 52' or 65' Mill gondolas with drop ends and idler flat cars on each end, as well.

I hope this helps!

Vertical handbrakes...

You lower them, just  like the prototype. Many flat cars in N scale have brake wheels that are simply a friction fit in the holes, and can be easily pushed down to the level of the deck.

There's a potential problem with the way that bottom drawing has the piles supported... as a model. Your turns are much tighter radii than the prototype, and with the mount as shown, it's going to create a good bit of friction going around corners, and might even derail due to side force, since the distance between end supports will change as you "bend" the cars around a turn. It would be better from a MODEL operations standpoint if you supported the piles at each end of the center flat, and used "slides" on the flats on either end instead of in the middle. like the top drawing.

You're short a flat? REALLY? You KNOW what the solution to that is, right? Like you need an excuse to buy another flat car!.

I made a long steel beam load that I can drop into a mill  gpndola like that, with substantial overhang on each end. Watch the vertical change, too, especially when starting or peaking an incline! You might want to dummy up a load and test it on the layout before committing to anything permanent. 

pilings

  Hi D, Before staining I'd use sand paper or a sharp block plane and taper them a bit. Older era piles would likely be a dark creosote color.  The pile driver used on the Santa Cruz wharf in the 1950's was a locally made wooden unit, a heavy timber tower on skids with a gas engine and cable system to lift the driving weight. They'd lift the pile vertical and place the tip where it was wanted, then pound it in till it stopped moving and then cut off the top to suit the framing structure. The pile driver stayed on the wharf and was skidded around to where ever it was needed. The piles were delivered to the rail yard just inland of the wharf entrance so not a very long road trip was required......DaveB

Wooden Piles

Typically wooden piles are driven (i.e. hammered in) until they stop going in (termed "refusal") and then cut to the required length above grade/water level.  Unless using Douglas Fir (which can go to 125 feet) wood piles are typically 20ft to 75ft long.  Wooden piles would be usually friction piles rather than end-bearing piles (ones that sit on bedrock) and would rarely be set into an augured hole as it's quicker to drive them...DaveB describes the usual process.

More than you'd ever want to know here: http://www.piledrivers.org/files/9971afc0-2754-41db-a9bc-849f87c51217--c38abc5c-4dca-402f-b252-e7e8f85df9f8/timberpilemanual.pdf

Alternatively, another design might have a mud-mat (flat concrete pad) installed at a low level (e.g low water springs) by using a coffer dam, and a wooden wharf built on top of that that would look like piles but would not be driven beneath the soil surface.

Jon

@Barr_ceo, I dug out one of

@Barr_ceo, I dug out one of my gondolas because it is hard to find prototypical CNR flat cars unless they are kitbashed or built from scratch.

@Pat, very helpful indeed!

@Jon, thanks for the link.

This is the tightest radius I have on the branch line:

@DaveB, Now I just have to tapper the pilings and stain them.

I think I'll use the same method of staining them like I did with the ties on my TT

that I did with shoe dye

Stained with first

Stained with first coats.

Unaltered photo:

Shot in natural

Shot in natural light:

Modified to look like an old photo:

Something else to consider as well.

Dee,

I've always thought these looked kinda' cool, One of these days I need to build the two Dolphins, I need for my layout, when I get that far. LOL

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin_%28structure%29

Just a thought, you could use a spray can of "flex-seal" to simulate the creosote on the bottom section of the pilings. If you can get it in your part of the world (where ever you are).

Charlie

Here’s a picture of the

Here’s a picture of the pilings of the Santa Cruz warf. The lighter color piles are the newest. These piles are just hammered into the mud with no drilling.

pqe

@Charlie, That would be such

@Charlie,

That would be such a cool modeling project.

This is what I can get in my neck of the woods:

@Pelsea, Interesting. Thanks.

@Pelsea,

Interesting. Thanks. I think I can see the colorization of the treatment for the pilings.

Now I just have to figure out

Now I just have to figure out how these would be secured in a gondola to prevent them from shifting forward or backwards.

Eventually I'll create a backstory of them arriving in the gondola.

In the meantime, they'll just be stored on the team track.

The tide heights are

The tide heights are familiar, however, the motive power would be on the other guys rails. At least on one side of the bay.

Are you modeling a freelance or prototype railroad?

Hi DAR1976 I model freelance

Hi DAR1976

I model freelance in regards to location using a prototype railroad.

This is my layout:

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/31151?page=11

I don't understand what you mean by "the motive power would be on the other guys rails".

Cheers

Freelance!! The wharves that

Freelance!!

The wharves that I am familiar with that handled those types of tides were near the baby CPR and not CN. I was hoping there might have been a prototype I wasn’t familiar with.

Oh well, Guess I won’t be able to match the railroad. 

Thanks.

same stuff

Dee,

Yep that's the product I was talking about. I would think It should work.

Charlie

Other stuff

Other stuff at the unloading point would be a crane (truck mounted or on treads) or two to unload them, piles of blocking.  They would not "store" pilings at the team track because that would use up valuable space that the railroad uses to generate revenue.  So the pilings would be there on a short time basis.  They would probably be trucked, a couple at a time to the wharf or pier being made.

There would also be dimensional boards for bracing.

Since this a sorta remote fishing village place, it is unlikely that they would have a major crane and pile driving company handy so that means you could have flatcar loads of cranes and pile driver equipment coming in before the project and leaving after the project.

@DAR1976, My wharf is an

@DAR1976,

My wharf is an imaginary location off the layout; where I sit and operate the layout with my throttle ; )

Check this out.

@Dave,OK, now I gotta do

@Dave,

OK, now I gotta do some shopping for an HO scale pile driver ; )

What type of crane would be used?

What are dimensional boards?

Logistics

Dee,

I've been giving your plan some thought. 1950's primitive area, coastal layout right? While it's all well and good, in the fact that it gives your railroad something to do. I also see logistical nightmare.

Mill work, prep & loading  $: 7.00 ft. x 70'=  $490.00 ea. x 20  $ 49,800.00 16"  Dia.. (debark,  shape & treat)

$ 7.00 ft. x 55' =  $385.00 ea. x 20 $   7,700.00 16"  Dia.                "

Misc. lumber     $ 3.75 ft. x 20' =   $ 100.00 ea. x 95 $  9,500.00   2"x12"

16"Dia. x 70'  wood piling=  630 Bd. ft. ea.      13,230 BD. ft. x 20 Cedar

16"Dia. x 55'  wood piling=  495 BD. ft. ea.      23,625 BD. ft. x 20 Cedar                      

Total lumber cost                                                  $ 67,000.00

Transport from mill to team track    3 flat cars:                             $10.20     $ .12mile x 80 miles (1 day)

Unloading at team track $                                                         $ 103.20     $1.29hr. x 8hr. 10 workers (1 day)

Reload onto barge $                                                                 $ 107.20     $1.34hr. x 8hr. 10 workers (1 day)

Placement (setting) of piling $   (60 days)                                $  720.00    $1.50hr. x 8hr.   1 operator (skipper)

(60 days)                                $  494.40     $1.03hr. x 8hr.   4 deck hands

Total                                                                                         $ 1,435.00   60 day build time

Grand total                                                                            $  68,435.60

1950 avg. salary per day $1.285 rounded up $1.29

1950 avg. Annual salary $3,210.00          1958 avg. annual salary  $ 3,673.80

Your intentions are good, but trains don't float very well. To many steps involved, as well as to much handling.

Mill work, prep & loading  $                                                  $ 67,000.00

Transport from mill to harbor or other dock area $ rail         $           2.12   $ .12 mile x 2 miles  (> a day)

​Loading to barge $                                                               $            1.60  $ .04   x .25 (15 minutes) 

​Transport to work site $                                                       $             3.12 $ .04 x  78mi.

​Placement Setting) of piling from barge $                           $          720.00

                                                                                            $          494.40

​Total                                                                                    $       1,221.24

​Grand total                                                                          $      68,221.24​   savings of    $213.76               

Delivery of pilings would more than likely take place at an established harbor or other dock area, and shipped by barge to where the work is to be done. But supplies could be brought into the team track. A small work camp, for the workers (portable housing, cook shack/mess hall), smaller support boats for those going to the pile driver.

I think everything is correct.

Just a thought.

Charlie