I’ll bite

I am a Dead Rail proponent and a user. I have 2 consists containing a powered unit and a dummy holding the batteries. I currently use the RailPro HC2 throttle along with the sound module/decoders also from RailPro. I use IPo batteries rated 800a at 11.1 volts. Is it a silver bullet, I don’t believe so and so far have I not heard or read a proponent say it is. It maybe the future but that’s a LONG way off.

Pros: it’s a readily available system from a few manufacturers, there is no electrical wiring needed but while I have a buss line and feeders to every 6’ of my layout, I currently have no power attached to the buss line. IMO only, I think my locomotives run smoother on batteries but I have no concrete proof of that.

I have owned the CVP micro air battery system and I enjoyed it and again very easy to set up and run, same set up as above, batteries in a dummy. Needed to have a decoder of choice to add micro Air.

I have owned the BlueRail Trains boards on batteries again with a trailing dummy. Sold it as the BR modules were limiting in the sound produced but again a very smoothly running unit.

Cons: batteries IMO currently are too big to be in the same powered unit. Batteries will die out. Batteries need careful charging and discharging. You need a battery charger at additional costs.

More Pros: less, well actually no rail cleaning. No Frog juicers or powering of frogs needed.

are there enough Pros— no there are not.

BUT, I am not trying to convert people. I enjoy trying something different.   Running a battery powered consist of units is fun but isn’t all running of trains fun if you have good track work.

Notice I don’t say cost as either a Pro or Con. Costs to me are up to an individual, not a group decision that it’s too costly. Just like saying converting DCC to RailPro is too costly. No one says if you convert anything it has to be converted at once! That is not your decision to make for me. Costs to me are like salaries...you know but why should they?

Big DISCLAIMER—-due to threads on the creation of the ProtoThrottle by ISE and Scott T’s continuing postings I ordered a PT for June delivery. For this I blame and thank Joe Fugate. He handed me the PT on Sunday morning at Trainfest 2017 in Milwaukee. I was hooked. RailPro is not interested in working to provide the data(?) needed to interface so I need a DCC system to operate it. So, I ordered the Cab Control 7 amp system from ESU but will continue Dead Rail as I work on a interface for the PT and Dead Rail. 

TomO

Verona, Wi.

I'm a wanna-be I guess, and

I'm a wanna-be I guess, and my comments in the other thread were at least partially tongue in cheek, but I do believe that Wireless direct to the engine control such as Railpro is a bit of a holy grail. 

I've also had experience running dead rail..about 8 years ago, so when the technology was even more limited than today.

For a pure dead rail scenario, the pros are:

• Well understood, robust, signalling standard with a more easily controlled transmission line
• No wiring debug under the layout
• No concerns about dirty track, shorts, loops, etc
• Potentially parts compatibility with the other RC hobbies. 
• Faster "time to first running engine"
• Fully portable. Can run on any layout anywhere.

Cons

• limited run time 
• battery replacement or recharge issues
• limited power from an engine. Likely will pull fewer cars.

If you look at more  a wireless direct engine control scenario with Capacitor/Battery hybrid, then the pros are:

• Well understood, robust signalling standard with a more easily controlled transmission line
• No concerns about shorts, loops and other wiring complexities
• Potentially parts compatibility with other RC hobbies
• lower costs for large layouts (boosters and circuit breakers)

Cons

• Still some underlayout/track wiring required
• not as portable as full dead rail
• potentially higher per-engine implementation costs (Though likely not much more than a modern Sound+KA system...battery size dependent.)

I myself am hopeful we will have a standard soon for hybrid/deadrail. I like Railpro, but they don't have enough decoder options for my taste. I'd accept a DCC OTA standard. But anything that will get the signalling off the rails is something we should all hope for. 

Eh...

Having been in the RC hobby years back I have seen my share of battery fires. A battery fire on a layout would be catastrophic. Combine that with how much equipment costs in the first place. I'm wondering if the batteries used for dead rail get hot at all. If so then that itself is a big enough con to keep me away.

As someone

who did R/C for a while, dead rail doesn't appeal to me simply because it is a big PITA to maintain and charge the batteries, which, while getting better, still add space requirements to already tight spaces with boards and speakers.  For those with smaller fleets, this may not be that big a problem, but even 10-15 locos would be more of a headache than I would care to deal with.  Others may not have any issues with it, but for me, it's a non-starter.  Wiring a layout isn't really that difficult and with graphite on the rails, I rarely experience any kind of hiccup, so it is, as well, a solution looking for a problem.

Battery heat

Skelton, Agee LiPo’s can be dangerous. But I have never noticed any untouchable heat. I do unhook my batteries if I am not running. BUT, I am not running RC batteries. I once had a electric RC boat burn up in the middle of Lake DuBay in Wi, miss that toy! Switched to weed eater engines after that.

YoHo, Diminished power, my layout is flat no grades but 1 Scaletrains.com Sd40-2 is pulling unit trains of 48 overweighted tank cars with no issue. Neither does the Genesis SD70ACe have issues pulling 60 overweighted intermodal cars. I have not noticed diminished pulling power.

Run a train today

TomO

Will not work in "N" scale. 

Will not work in "N" scale.  The cost to fit in over 200 engines.  (N scale.  I'm running 3 to 5 units per train and 2 units for locals and yards)  So if a battery dies in one of the consisted sets etc. would be a big issue.

Flying R/C and drones.  After you see a battery spontaneously combust.  You might change your mind.  Fireproof charge bag and keep batterys stored in a big metal pot in case of fire.  Last thing I want is 200 potential fire starters stored under plastic shells laying on top of foam or wooden bench work.  

Layout fire do happen and it is bad with all the wood, plastics and foams etc.  

I say no just for a safety factor of not wanting to burn the house down with my family in it.

I’ll take a bite as well

Well, if you’ve read any of my ramblingas about being a dead rail guy then you know I’m all in, not without second thoughts though. Would I do this again? Yes and no. Here are my reasons. 

First, batteries are ready for On30, for sure.  Possible HO - no experience there. Outdoors no question. The use of the CVP and Tam Valley throttles were a game changer for me. No base station and direct communication to the loco. 

Decoders are limited to non-sound at present so an additional sound decoder is required but, again, I’ve had no trouble finder by room. A topic for another day is sound but having set it up with battery power has been a delight and I have a hard time running trains without sound now. 

Changing and charging the batteries is not hard but an inconvenience. The Statton charging on the rails system shows promise but I haven’t had time to do the install yet so look forward to smaller batteries and frequent charges.  This will require a few drops but still no frog juicers and I can use rails for detection. This seems to be the ultimate “keep-alive” solution.

BlueRail has the greatest potential for control, my, sound, and feedback. I have posted my eight items to watch elsewhere on “ Getting Back to My Trains” so wont beat the horse anymore. Suffice to say that as modelers join us the ranks with computer savvy things will change. I love the idea of the PrtoThrottle and look forward to that melding with batteries and Bluetooth technology. 

Battery powered engines are just a drop in the bucket with radio technology and, like our cell phones, will be safer and ubiquitous with time.

Pro/Con

Good feedback, thanks!

Looking at dead rail. Sure it

Looking at dead rail. Sure it would be nice. But the technology hasn't caught up in the world of Model railroading. As it seems. Dead rail is suitable for larger scales at the moment. Sure things will change. 
But it seems to take forever with model railroading. Look at the current 80's tech DCC systems still selling.  When you compare technology in say RC Drones/Cars/Planes. Maybe if they include Inductive charging, which uses an electromagnetic field to transfer energy between two objects through electromagnetic induction. Then that would solve the re charging points.
But at the moment. Dead rail, yeah nice pie in the sky technology. Not quite there for scales below say On30.

Phil

multi-system compatible ?

not sure that I've seen this listed, but i don't think there's a restriction that everyone must use the same system as long as there is no radio interference.  (wifi and bluetooth should work, ISM, maybe not).

can someone confirm?

The key?

is your track and how hard it is to keep clean. Outside layouts or others in dirty environment will benefit greatly from dead rail but for those in a clean location there's not much reason to add the complexity of self contained power  to all one's engines when the rails have an endless supply of power for the taking. Trains are not planes or cars which run off into space away from their starting point, we have conducting rails going everywhere we run so power is always handy without a battery. ....DaveB

I'm still wrestling with protecting open gates or liftouts from

operator error/inattention or other problems that might lead to a realization that model trains don't fly any better than the real ones do.  The lengthy discussions about automatic, power-killing systems based on occupancy detection and DCC eStop broadcast commands to offset KA-equipped locos have shown how complicated this can get; given that Dead Rail is essentially all/only-KA all the time, what would be the Dead Rail equivalent?  It strikes me that with a wired system you do have at least a somewhat workable approach that can be implemented in such a way as to not require shutting down an entire layout at once; is this also possible for Dead Rail?

In the absence of technology to identify the specific train on the highway to the danger zone and tell it (and only it) to kill the motor, are there Dead Rail equivalents to eStop?  Do these receivers have a broadcast command equivalent that all of them would respond to at the same time?  I'm sure that allowing one open gate to shutdown an entire layout would become more an extreme irritant the larger the layout...

I've been bitten, but there is still a long way to go.

I have installed and run a few systems including Crest (AristoCraft Train Engineer Revolution in HO, LS), CVP (HO, O, LS), S-Cab (HO, O), DRS (Tam Valley in HO, O, LS), RailPro (Ring Eng. In HO [LS in stack to be tested]), BlueRail (HO), QSI (LS), DIY (TI transeivers driving DCC decoders), several RC systems for running live steam, and a few more. Most of the Large Scale (LS) installs supported both track and or battery operation, most of the O installs were battery power, some of the HO installs used batteries but most were track power (with “keep alives”).

There are lots of opportunities for wireless systems; however, none of the current systems provide more than the basic capabilities of DCC systems.

Pros:

1. No need to supply track power,

2. Limited feedback from transceivers / decoders,

3. Some fairly easy to setup.

Cons:

1. Receivers / Decoders will not fit in N and many HO, O and smaller LS engines (without significant Mods),

2. Hard to fit batteries in small engines including LS engines (but they can be installed in dummy engines and or trailing cars),

3. Batteries are expensive, have limited recharging life and can be a pain to recharge and maintain,

4. Limited run times (definitely a problem for display and show layouts),

5. Receiver / Decoder sets (especially with GOOD sound) can be substantially more expensive,

6. Limited system functions compared to DCC system capabilities,

7. No Model Railroad wireless Standards,

8. No detection or feedback from layout with limited feedback from transceivers / decoders,

9. Limited or no signaling options (which of course needs wiring or lots of batteries),

10. Interference on 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz ISM bands (WiFi / BlueTooth) is an issue,

11. Throttles can step on (interfere) each other which can be difficult to debug,

12. Other players looking to step on the frequencies used by CVP, S-Cab and DRS (916.49 MHz in US).

Power drain.

I'm wondering, how much power do the soundboards and all the LEDs drain from the battery? How much run time do you lose from all the lights and sound? Even if you lose 2 or 3% of your run time, that's still a couple minutes lost. This doesn't seem like much, but if dead rail is to come to other scales then the batteries have to be smaller. Therefore that percentage adds up when you shrink the battery size.

The more models become prototypical, more lights seem to get added over time. Back in the day of blue box you only had two lights, now some models can have up to 12 when you count all the ditch lights, main lights, back up lights, number board lights, etc etc. We don't have to worry about this in a wired layout because power is constantly provided, but batteries have limited output compared to a fully wired layout.

I would think run time would

I would think run time would not be very long in the smaller scales.  I have a micro Drone that has 4 very small motors on it and it runs for about 5 minutes.  The LiPo battery is larger than what would fit inside a "N" scale engine and  is wider than most GP and SD hoods on HO scale models.  Lets just say running 1 "N" scale motor that is 2 times the size of what is in the micro drone.  I would think you should get a good 20 minutes of runtime before you start to run out of amps.

I little math will give you a good estimated runtime.

Rating of batteries

Battery Tutorials

There is a lot of anecdotal "common knowledge" about batteries. Unfortunately, a lot of it is based on very small samples and perhaps incomplete understanding of the products.

Adafruit is in the business of helping hobbyists understand electronics and safely use their products.

Here is a tutorial on LiPo batteries.

Here is a more general tutorial on batteries.

There is a lot of good information here. The articles are short and easily understood.  Anyone using LiPo batteries should definitely read the first article. But anyone looking for a general understanding should take a look at both.

GS

Battery drain

Yes I experience drain and I can feel it ebbing away, I think! I operate a switching layout that has a continuous run over 110’ but I do not use the continuous run feature very much. I operate a Genesis Sd70ACe with sound, ditch lights and step lights. I get a good 2 hours on a 800ma 3 cell 11.1 volt battery.  The same setup on a Scaletrains Sd40-2 and get more than 2 hours before power slow down occurs. These are estimates to the best guess of my ability. I have an acquaintance who run consists of 3 engines with the middle engine being a dummy holding batteries for each of the power and he uses a 14.8v 6800ma battery  pack and he still runs after 4 hours. My running of engines are stop and go, he runs on a modular layout at shows.

Battery is not for everyone as discussed in my 1st response. It doesn’t fit N scale at this time. IMO using dummies is not ideal to hold the batteries in HO but it is better than nothing. I am not a tinkerer but I do enjoy playing with the battery setup. I do not operate on a big layout so the full extent to what a battery can do on my layout will never be explored. I do unplug after running and I have seen RC batteries burn up. I have not seen a IPo battery even get warm and start swelling up.

Pete Steinmetz at deadrailinstalks.com has a very knowledgeable website and he sells install kits. I use RailPro sound modules and Direct Radio Control Throttle that are easily available from Bill at Pdc.ca or many other MRH advertisers. IMO Tim at RailPro is missing the boat by not promoting his system to the Dead Rail crowd. Remote Control Systems of New England is another good supplier with lots of good info. This stuff is off the shelf.

It is very apparent since only a couple of us have replied, and remember Neil in Hawaii is recovering from his bike accident, there is not a great following for wireless battery control systems. But keep in mind that CVP, Bachman with BlueRail, Aristo Craft, Crest, Stanton Cab, Del tang and others are selling it. There must be a dollar in it for suppliers to offer it.

I am hopeful Bernd will chime in as he is a tinkerer and has some good approaches for his wireless battery controls. 

TomO

Verona, Wi

Run times

Run time

I follow what Lance Mindheim preaches. I run my layout daily about 15 to 30 minutes in the morning and I try in the evening to run for an hour. I have a switching layout so my time is spent switching the industries. Yes, I unplug the battery each time I am done and yes it can be a PITA.

TomO

My experience

I'm pretty sure his reason for not aggressively promoting it is he wants to avoid any potential liability when it comes to LiPo batteries.  That being said, the new large scale Railpro modules are built with battery power in mind (instructions have options for wiring to track power or directly to battery), so he's not completely averse to the concept.  Part of it may be that he doesn't feel that the battery tech is quite there for HO applications.

I have one locomotive fully battery-powered running Railpro.  Run time is probably around 4 hours before it dies.  It's a highly modified Kato SD40-2 using a 3.7V 700mah single cell battery.  

Pros:

• Zero power dropouts
• No track/wheel cleaning
• When a DCC layout shuts off because of a short, I'm still running
• Fun!

Cons:

• Battery charging has to be planned in advance, and takes time
• Charging the battery requires access to a plug within the locomotive to plug into the charger (or you have to remove the battery completely)
• Potential for fire.  I'm not that concerned about this one honestly.  My batteries are small and I'm not using them for high current applications. The charger I use is a trickle charger.

Railpro is set up well to run dead rail.  Because the system is already direct radio control the only thing needed is to add a battery...there is no need for an extra board to enable wireless control.  Signal loss is always a concern for wireless control, but in my own experience, the incidence of that is extremely low with Railpro.  Distance and crowded airwaves can play a part for sure, but when you are following your train it really isn't an issue.

The only reason I haven't built a second battery-powered locomotive is the difficulty in getting the battery to fit.  I spent hours milling out the fuel tank on the first SD40-2 I built.

-Kevin

"The only reason I haven't

What about the battery's effect on the engine's sound system? Is that a pro or con? ......DaveB 

Signalling

If running entirely on batteries with no power going though the track, block signalling still requires wiring under the layout with the track being electrically part of the equation (same as the prototype).  In situations where signalling is present, the wiring complexity and cost required to provide locomotive power is already sunk.

Thanks,

Stuart