Blame us

You can blame us. We decide what is and what is not appropriate on our site and our decision is final.

From our posting guidelines:

We felt this discussion was not one that would make you any friends and it has too many political undertones for our taste. We prefer to focus on modeling methods and yes if that means we're wearing rose colored glasses, then so be it.

Feel free to continue the discussion elsewhere (and post a link to it) -- but just don't continue it here.

Disappointed but Understand

Very disappointed that a recent blog was locked but understand where MRH managment was coming from.  "Technically" I can see where the discussion did not have anything to do with model railroading per-say.  Certainly understand about the dangers of "pissing off" the advertisors and being labeled unfairly. 

Although, I did not read anything on the submitted posts that would be considered racial, insensative, or inflamatory.  Seemed like a very thoughtful discussion about the "ugly" side of the history and evolution of the railroad industry from decades past.  

Very sad and "dangerous" that we live in an era of political correctness and we choose to bury history versus learning from it.  

"Oh well, at least we spared peoples feelings".   "Who needs a hug?" 

Joe

Notice the thread remains published

Notice the thread remains and is fully readable and will be indexed by Google, so searchers can find it and read it.

We did not delete it or otherwise censor it. Just wanted to nip it in the bud before it did turn nasty, which it most certainly would have sooner or later.

Quit while you're ahead applies in this case.

Assumed it was gonna happen...

I get where Joe is coming from, before it got ugly.

Far too often online, people wear their convictions on their sleeves and a discussion about, say, puppies usually turns into mud slinging about unrelated stuff (often religion or politics), leading others to think, "How the heck did a discussion about puppies turn into this?" Just look at any news site or Youtube comments section.

I believe in the old adage of never discusisng religion or politics in mixed company, a concept that escapes a lot of people online.

All that said, I have had people ask me about whether it's right or worth someone's time to model the more uncomfortable aspects of history (genuine questions, not trying to stir a pot), and it's a shame that can't be addressed on a model forum. Lots of the 'good old days' people like to model had a dark underbelly.

Anyway, here's a place where serious questions about the 20s to 40s (or so) can be asked, with poeple who really know the timeframes: http://www.thefedoralounge.com/forums/

Continue it elsewhere

Thank you MRH

Thank you. 

Joe the reluctant bouncer

Long ago at Badger Pond

A couple of decades back, somewhere in the time between dial-up bulletin boards and facebook, there was a great woodworking forum called Badger Pond.

Badger Pond was moderated and run by a very nice fellow at his own expense. He only had a couple of rules - no religion, no politics (not even a hint) and stay on topic.

It was his forum that he provided, for anyone that wanted to follow the rules, to discuss woodworking.

If you broke the rules, you got banned. And, at his discretion, he deleted anything off topic.

Many times, it was explained to new folks, when you go to a party in someone's house, you be polite and follow their rules.  If you don't like the rules, either go somewhere else, or host your own party.

One day, after a few years, he just got tired of it and shut down Badger Pond. Everyone that followed the rules was very sad to see it go, but it was his party and I guess he felt it was time for the visitors to leave so he could go to bed.

gs

hot topics

Or the price of the hobby or the NMRA or.... It would be great if we could all act like adults and have a civilized conversation. For the most part that's what happens here. I saw yet another conversation on a Facebook model train page that devolved into cursing and calling names. Normally level headed and reasonable people often get emotional and let that take over. It happens and will always happen as long as the human race will exist.

It boils down to being able to control your emotions. You may think that is an easy thing to do. It is most certainly not. We are wired in such a way that we are emotional beings. That is wonderful because it allows for emotions like love. It also has a down side to it. It sounds so simple to say "keep scrolling" if you don't like something. I fight with myself everyday because I have friends that I vehemently disagree with on a variety of topics but they are my friends because deep down I have a love of their soul. They post things that upset me and I have to work hard to not react. 

Cutting off the thread was a reasonable move. It isn't about hiding anything, putting on rose coloured glasses or anything else. It is about recognizing human nature and not wanting to clean up a mess. We're in Joe's house, we play by his rules.

Honestly, This is not the

Honestly, This is not the website I go to for real railroad discussion in the first place dark underbelly or not unless it's specifically in the context of modelling. Trains.com's trains subforum for example has more info on railroading past and present and many of the posters were or are in the industry. I think it does MRH credit that it sticks to it's focus. 

I agree

I agree, that's why the thread remains visible and will be searchable by Google. Folks will find it and come read what's in it. But we cut it off before it devolved into something less friendly.

And it didn't get a chance to go elsewhere

Like into:

• Rail safety amd the accidents that led to technological developments.
• Ever read why Geoirge Westighouse invented his air brake??
• Ever read the accident statistics for the rail industry prior to the introduction of the knuckle coupler?
• Ever read anything about "crashworhiness"
• Ever read about Crush and what went on there?
• Ever read anything about Credit Mobilier?
• Ever read anything about how the Central Pacific got through the Rockies

These are all part of the dark and forgotten history behind your US model trains. A lot of it was written in blood and pain. Chances are you won't read about any of it here now.

As a foreigner looking in - Yes we have our own problems and our own historical skeletons in the closet.

But those "whingers" who try to hide/sanitise/rewrite history may well live to make the same mistakes in future because they are not prepared to listen to some often unpalatable truths behind that history that will enable you to "learn". Perhaps something that just might help your understanding of our model trains and why stuff looks like it does, or, is done the way that it is in the real world that impinges on your model trains operations. 

Frankly I'm ashamed of those "whingers" on here whose first move was to run to the Boss. All you had to do was sit on the sidelines and watch. You didn't even have to look at what was posted in that thread if you didn't agree with the premise of that thread. No - you were too gutless (for want of a better word) even to do that. You chose to run straight to the Boss and loudly chant "WE don'r like this!!!". 

From where I sit, it looks like  "ignorance" is apparently "bliss". If that continues to be the case on here, then apparently I have litlle to contribute here previously, now, or into the the future. 

We have an expression down here - "Build a bridge"  For those of you who have not "got" the rest of this expression - here it is "and get over It" 

The Boss has made his decision - Fine, I can live with that. I'm over that bridge.

But the point I'm making is that that the Boss shouldn't have had to make the decision to shut down the thread in the first place. That is the really disappointing part. 

If that opinion gets me fired from here, well, so be it. It was fun while it lasted,    

John mate, fully with you on

John mate, fully with you on your thoughts, if you get fired from here.

I'll be with you too, walking over the bridge, so long as we dont have to drink Four X

Phil

NZ

Not that Joe needs my

Not that Joe needs my assisance, but I'd like to relate my experience on another type forum.  I was a founding member and moderator on one of the largest gun forums, http://www.thehighroad.org  guns and shooting is a highly political issue.  But at least 12 years ago we changed the Legal and Political subform to the Legal forum and we banned political discussions.

That decision wasn't made frivolously or without a lot of discsussion between the owner and the staff.  We decided that we weren't fulfilling our mission of education and being a place where people of all political persuasions could come and discuss guns and shooting by allowing strictly political discussions to run people off.

Closing a thread or even having to ban a member for not following the rules is never an easy decision.  However there are some subjects that are so contentuous that experience has shown always degenerate into a shouting match that we close them on sight.

We all came to MRH to discuss model railroading and share our enthusiasm for the hobby with others.  There isn't room for judgement when it comes to what's right and what's wrong in the hobby.  I like to consider myself a prototype modeler, but I make some compromises in what I run on my railroad.  My best friend in the hobby has a basement filling plywood pacific and I enjoy operating on it.  I don't think his enjoyment of running trains being greater then his enjoyment of building scenery makes him any less of a modeler then I am.  This is a hobby and if the guy who runs his trains on a loop of track is enjoying it, who am I to judge?  Similarly if someone models a railroad in the south during the Jim Crow era, I'm not going to judge him on if he includes or doesn't include seperate cars and facilities.  And I'm certainly not going to let his decision one way or another affect my opinion of him.

I came here to talk about trains.  There are other places to talk about politics.

Jeff White

Alma, IL

I see no problem with those discussions

Fine, talk about those, just don't put it on a topic that deliberately starts out with a political / racial spin to it.

Hey, railroading is a dangerous business, we get that. Fine, talk about the danger and how it can be overcome. But leave the politics and racial stuff as just a side mention not the focus. Yes, the Central Pacific used Irish and Chinese to build their rail line. Mention that as part of history, but don't make exploring all the darker racial nuances the focus of your thread.

Stick to talking about trains as the focus and keep it generally neutral-to-positive. A little negativity goes a LONG way on the web.

Not the correct website!

"This is not the website I go to for real railroad discussion" AMEN, oops, I mean I agree!    Russ

It was the right decision.

JoeF, used good judgment in shutting the discussion down.  While I found the discussion was potentially interesting, it was also potentially a time bomb. We don't need that here.

Boris

My apologies to all.

I started that thread, and Joe was right to shut it down... like others have said, this is HIS house, and we are all guests.

I knew, when starting the blog that there was potential for upset, and I was quite proud of the fact that the discussion was mature, and informative wthout going off the deep end, but there was still a potential that it could have, and as I said in my opening comments of the thread, if the subject was inappropriate, that I would hold no grudges if it was stopped, or deleted.

After it was locked, I went ahead and deleted the blog myself. Neither Joe, nor any of the staff at MRH deleted the blog... it was my decision, as I do NOT want MRH to lose any advertising over a stupid blog.

Remember, when posting blogs, or content in these forums that MRH *IS* still a business, and if we wish to enjoy the magazine, and the forums, it still needs to appeal to the advertisers, as well as readers.

It's a fine balance, and the staff MUST do what they feel is right.

If that means a blog that I wrote is ended, then so be it. Like I said in the initial start of the blog, I knew there was a potential for that.

I don't always understand the emotional reactions of others, but I am old enough, and experienced enough to know that emotional reactions do happen, and I would rather not be someone who contributes to the negative ones.

So, don't get mad at Joe... or the magazine. This is a fun hobby. Let's keep it that way.

Thanks for gving us a place to talk trains, Joe, and MRH staff!

No problem

Now I'm Sad

Sorry you took the blog down, Warflight after Joe had already said he would keep it. It was interesting, civil, and informative. That being said, it was yours to do as you pleased.

Frankly I'm ashamed of those

You see, this is exactly the kind of thing Joe was trying to nip when he made his decision. You have stooped to mud-slinging and name calling.

Here is what you are missing, John: you don't get to decide what other people think and feel. For some reason, you seem to believe that you can dictate other people's feelings and when you don't get your way, you call them "gutless" and "ignorant." Did you even consider who may have complained and why? Did you even consider the effect the thread could have on this site or on society as a whole?

And when you say "Build a bridge" you are being flippant and dismissive. It doesn't add anything of value to the discussion at hand. It's just your way of saying "my opinion is final, I don't care what you think."

It appears that you don't care about anyone but yourself, and that, my friend, is the biggest disappointment about this whole thing.

If anything gets you "fired" from this forum, it won't be your opinions, it will be your attitude.

"when you say "Build a

  Yes, bridges are best used to join not to tear apart.....DaveB 

It appears that you don't care about anyone but yourself...

Apparently, that is how the people who complained to Joe felt - only about themselves. If they truly cared about everyone's feeling in this, they would have had the broader, open discussion to gauge that feeling.

Time to clear the air

Hi to anyone who choses to read further, 

If you feel that your sensibiilites might be hurt, then please read no further and proceed to the next topic - It's all good here, there is plenty of other stuff to read on the forum. I do not want to trigger another flood of e-mail complaints to MRH management)

For those who choose to continue, go make yourselves a cup of coffee, this will be a long read, 

Let's get a few things stratight about that now dsappeared thread:

1. The MRH management have the right to lock or delete threads as they see fit - Not a problem for me
2. The guidelines for what was permissable to appear in that thread were well defined in the original post.- Not a problem for me
3. The contetnt that had gone up already in that thread was following those guidelines laiid down in the original post. Not a problem for me or apparently MRH management (see Point 6 below)
4. The thread was probably already being closely monitored by MRH staff to make sure it didn't get out of hand. (I'd be very surprised if it wasn't).
5. The thread was locked because of "a large number of complaints" (JoeF's words when the now disappeared thread was locked). 
6. The content of that thread was acceptable in the eyes of MRH management and acknowledged as such, because the thread was allowed to remain after the thread was locked. If the content was unacceptable, then MRH management could have/should have removed the thread. Not a problem for me
7. Remember I'm on the other side of then world - If there were complaints, then someone has made those complaints. In the Aussie vernacular a "whinger" is simply someone who has made a complaint. Please don't read more into my words than was intended. Complaints made = Complainers to make thiose complaints. 
8.  What was a problem to me that led to the post above was that the thread was locked "because of the large number of complaints". Not because of the content being posted.. 
9. If the content had started to come of the rails and drift away from those very specific guidelines in the original post, then I do and would fully support MRH's management in any action that they could have chosen to take.
10. I do not know the contents of the complaints sent to MRH. But if if it was any stronger than "Hey MRH you might like to keep a close eye on this thread because it could come unstuck", then perhaps it is not my attitude that could use some introspection?
11. I apologise unreservedly for the use of the word "gutless" but at the time I was struggling to come up with suitable words fo describe those who chose to just not participate in the thread, but then also to curtail others participation in a valid thread by complaining to the Boss because they personally didn't "like" the content of that thread. Is this, in effect, you the complainers trying to "control" what others in the forum are permitted to read/post on this forum?? Just as I have been accused of above? 
12. I NEVER used the word "ignorant" in my posting and would NEVER use it on here. Many of you have far more modelling and North American railroad knowledge than I have. I am glad that you choose to share it here. What I actually wrote was
    "From where I sit, it looks like  "ignorance" is apparently "bliss".
    What I meant was that it appears many of you are happy where you are, with no desire or inclination to discuss "bad" historical railroad practices that led to your current railroad practices in the real or modelled world. As I said in that post - "These are all part of the dark and forgotten history behind your US model trains.".  Fine by me, just as long as you are happy where you are. 
13. You, the individual forum member have the choice of which threads you open to read. Just as I have. For this disappeared post, if you had read the original post and didn't like the terms controlling what could be posted in a possibly contentious topic, then it is your decision to read further and not mine. Don't complain to me or the managemet if your sensibilities are hurt. You were warned before you went in.
    It is your choice which threads you choose to read or not read. If what you read upsets you, then, perhaps' it might be worthwhile looking at WHY it upsets you so much that you feel the need to complain to the Boss?
    This is all what I meant with - 
    All you had to do was sit on the sidelines and watch. You didn't even have to look at what was posted in that thread if you didn't agree with the premise of that thread.
    I cannot and never will try to control what you open to read on this forum. That is your choice and your choice alone. Just don't try to blame me if some of it upsets some of you sometimes. 
14. Remember that this is an international forum. Others in other countries were and probably still are watching how this settles down. 
15. As for the final "bridge" comment - That was made because there were many things that were "done deals" or final decisions made by others when I posted that message.

• The thread was locked because of complaints that it "MIGHT" go off the rails.
• The decision to lock the thread was stated as irreversible, as is MRH managment's right 
• The thread was later deleted by the blog owner, as is his right
• The chance to have a deeper discussion about other possible "less-than-savory" railroad operating practices of the past in that thread had evaporated and is unlikely to be revisited given what has just happened.
• As such, I'm over it. I'll go on to other things, read other topics, comment on some others in the future if I have the knowledge or expertise. This topic should be about done too.
• The MRH e-magazine has a column called "Reverse Running" - Look at this topic as an example of it. .The views expressed here are mine and mine alone, Just because tmy opinions might not align with yours, please don't read more "attitude" in there than was actually intended.   

BTW - hanging on the wall beside me I have a Post-Graduate Diploma in Rolling Stock Engineering. I've had to study railroad systems in Australia and elsewhere in the world to get that qualification. What worked and what didn't and how it is applied to the design of roling stock in today's railroad world. I'm only too happy to share that knowledge here if and when I can..  

That's probably way more electrons wasted on this topic than should have been necessary, I suggest that we all  now let this thread die or, perhaps even disappear like the original thread that triggered this series of posts,.