A thought

Your methods sound pretty good to me. I do the same (Liquitex) and have not had the problems you are encountering. I would suggest a couple of small changes.  Make sure materials and layout are not cold.

When first misting the track use water and alcohol in a 50/50 mix. Remember that the alcohol is probably 30% water in the bottle. Spray the area you are working on and go back and spray it again....you need it really soaked all the way to the bottom of the ballast. Sometimes I use alcohol straight out of the bottle with no extra water added......careful with fumes.

When you use the glue, experiment with the ratios. You probably need to raise the amount of alcohol. Mix, mix again and one more time. If you are really diligent (I am not) put about a teaspoon of the mix on some black plastic or paper. Look closely. If you see any white dots you’ve got problems.

Just looking at your ballast in general it appears to have WAY TOO MUCH GLUE on it. The individual stones should look separate and not such a gummy mass. When using less glue there will be no grab until the glue has completely dried.

Just spitballin’ here.

@ Craig with another thought.

Hi Craig,

I hate it when things don’t go as expected.  

My thought is to redissolve the matte medium.  At first I thought of 91% isopropyl alcohol then I considered 70%.  It might not hurt to try a small section of each.  The alcohol and the water should dissolve the matte medium.  I would think that the alcohol would be a little more aggressive than the alcohol.  

As an experiment off layout put some drops pure matte medium on a piece of wood or plastic, let it dry then try different solvents (or solvent ratios) on it to see what works.  

Hmmm... looked around a little and also discussed it with my artist wife.  

matte medium is an acrylic.

there are a number of varieties.

two major varieties in particular are not clear and clear.

being acrylic polymer it might not be soluble.

maybe adding a little ammonia to the 70% isopropanol will work.

mechanical removal from the delrin ties with a dull knife blade might be a choice along with painting over the splotches or as you suggested a wash to tone down the white.

I grumble about the cost of Woodland Scenics but it hasn’t let me down.

Nick

Don't mix alcohol and acrylic

Don't mix alcohol and acrylic matte medium. The alcohol "sets off" the acrylic, leading to both issues like you experienced, and clotting of the mix (which can clog your spray bottle). If you want a wetting agent, use a tiny bit dish soap instead of the alcohol.

to mix or not to mix....that is the question

Don't want to be contrary but they indeed work well, in fact extremely well together. As I understand it they don't actually mix but the alcohol dissolves the medium. Could be wrong on the actual mechanism but not the application. If acrylics and oils, fats and other non water based products can't play well together things like milk wouldn't be possible......anyway, it works here. Notice the bottle of MM has the circle with the F in it. Stands for fluid. That could an issue if you are not using the fluid form of MM. Also look at my jar of diluted MM. It doesn't say I put alcohol in it.....I thought maybe I screwed up my info a little (always possible) but when I opened the jar it was obvious that isoprpyl was there too. I think the big problem in this particular case is possibly heavy form of matte medium and way too much for the other fluids to deal with. You can see that the mixture in the jar is quite thin.....I even spray it but not for ballast.

Also, personally I can't stand the shiny look that Elmers can leave....I wish it didn't because I've got a gallon here that I rarely use because of that. Now, if someone could clue me on how to keep Elmers from shining I would sure appreciate it! 

One other thing. be careful with Dawn. When I first ballasted on this layout I used a little Dawn as the wetting agent instead of isopropyl. Wetted fine. You got to understand I'm pretty picky about some stuff (not in real life, just in model railroad mode) and I had spent over a month to finally get the blend of ballast texture and color that I wanted. Well, as the ballast was drying I looked at it and it bugged the heck out of me.....the color was shifted just a tad toward a touch of blue. What happened? Dawn happened. Just a drop or two was enough to tint the ballast. Scraped up all that ballast, switches and all. Tossed the Dawn, substituted lots of isopropyl and got exactly the color I wanted. 

My Method

Too much adhesive

Craig,

I agree with Rick. Your pics look like the glue went on too thick and pooled everywhere leaving white splotches. I will dilute the areas on ties etc. if it appears that the adhesive is pooling too much. In addition, there is a well known issue with talc in matt medium causing this problem. John in his post above describes the method for settling out the talc so that it won't cause problems like this.

You can try q tips soaked in alcohol or plain water to scrub off some of the goo (not a real appealing prospect if we are talking about a large area) or you could use a light rinse of India ink wash to darken the splotches so they won't show.

Guy

All good tips here!

Thanks to everyone for the tips so far.  I'm using the exact same Liquitex matte medium as Rick shows above. 

Guy, you're probably right with going on too thick.  I was trying for about a 50/50 mixture, but I suspect it might have been more 60/40 in favor of the matte medium.  I also noticed when adding the alcohol to the wetting water that I had to shake it well to get it to fully mix.  Otherwise I could still see the alcohol "floating" through the water.  I was only stirring my matte medium solution in very small batches, so there's a good chance that it was not fully blended.

I tried Nick's suggestion of re-wetting with alcohol and the matte medium did dissolve, but then it reappeared as soon as it all dried again.  Fortunately it's a small area (only about 6 feet of track so far) so the soaked Q-tip is a viable option.

Next, I'll try John's suggestion of a much thinner ratio and shake well.  It's been about < mumble, mumble, carry the ten, ...> years since I last did any scenery work so I'm re-learning!

Rick, hopefully by the time I finish ballasting the last couple of ties, my track will look as good as yours!

Craig

Don't try to tell me it isn't the alcohol....

Remember... all matte medium is, is flat acrylic paint with no pigment....

Yup

Yeah, I did some googling too and saw that demo. Every time I use metallic paint then drop splotches of almost pure isopropyl on it my ballast looks like............you know, kinda psychedelic.

just funning.

I did have another thought. I do get one on rare occasion. This could be THE ANSWER...TA,DA, If you lighten up your glue mixture dramatically and use whatever for wetting......If you have any more white spots on your ties (which I doubt you will as I’m still going with way too much glue as the main culprit.......wait for it.........just don’t put glue on the ties and side of the rails.

If you don’t put any there you sure as heck shouldn’t develop the white spots in those areas. Period. Done.

If you have hundreds of feet of track it does take a little more time but my layout is maybe 75’ total and that’s how I apply the glue because my track is completely painted and weathered before it gets installed and I don’t want to take any chance of changing it. The key is to use a bulb dispenser like supplied with ear wax cleaning. Having a large amount of liquid at your disposal you can move along at a pretty good pace while you still have pin point control.

This picture does show some evidence of whiteish colors. It is intensional. Not on the ties or rail, at least my eye never has picked it up. I’m old but I think my eyes work OK.

Anyway, Craig you’ll get it solved. I still make messes like that all the time I usually just hide them with paint. I’ve curdled more paint than I care to admit to.

Product Satisfaction

Hey Rick, if you aren't going to use that gallon of Elmer's, let me know and I'll take it off your hands.  I've never had any problems with a 'shiny' finish.

George

George

It’s yours. Hopefully it’s still good.

Second attempt, slightly better results...

I got around to doing some more ballasting this morning.  I made a few adjustments as suggested above.  Here is my current setup:

Misting spray bottle with water, diluted about 30% with 91% alcohol.  3 oz. container for mixing the solution. This time I used a 3:1 water to matte medium mixture with just a splash of alcohol.  A "Squeeze Writer Bottle" for applying the solution to the ballast, and another spray bottle with solution for scenery. Not shown are Q-tips.

I noticed that even after vigorously shaking the solution, after an hour or so a fair amount of matte medium still settles out on the bottom (does not remain fully mixed).  Is this normal and expected? Does it mean I'm still using too much matte medium?  Is the alcohol somehow accelerating the separation?

Despite my best efforts to not get the solution on the ties or rails, I noticed that even if I placed a drop between the ties, it would still climb up on the ties and then race over to climb up on the rails.  I had to use Q-tips to carefully dab the excess off the ties and rails when done.

Next steps to try:

• Reduce the ratio of the solution even further to 4:1
• Don't use any alcohol in the solution, only use alcohol in the wetting agent
• Use more alcohol in the solution?
• Use a clear dish soap instead of alcohol?
• Hit everything with dullcoat and see if that fixes the spots.

Craig

I’m quite mystified

Sorry that you are having problems. I’ll attempt a couple of experiments along with you and see if we can find the problem. I’m sure that some things I find will be red herrings but worth a try.

First I checked the mixture I have used without problems. I can only make a wild guess as to mixture as it is maybe as much as two years old or as little as six months. I should keep better notes!

Probably around 10-15% matte, 30% isopropyl and the rest water. Probably not important but I use distilled water for any mixture used on my work requiring water.

I poured the the solution into a glass peanut butter jar to inspect it further. Very, very thin. A little scum residue remained in the plastic bottle but by rubbing it with my finger it appeared to be  a small amount that mostly stayed in place. While pouring I could not detect any lumps, dots etc and I watched very closely. Inspecting the inside of the peanut butter jar I could not find any trace of residue suggesting that the mixture didn’t have any solid waste floating in it. I have seen curdled mixtures before with so I understand what a pain they are. For me it has been mostly during painting....I’ll try anything.

OI’ll attach pictures and make more posts if I get a chance.

Curious...I have you tried any experiments with other ballast and/or track types? FYI my track is ME fully painted and weathered with Brandon chalks before installation. Ballast is a mixture of equal parts Arizona 138-1, 138-2 and  Scenery Express SEO366.

The following for me has been foolproof

1. Dilute matte medium 3:1 with water only, plus two spritzes of Armor All Glass Cleaner. This has been discussed in the acrylic paint threads as an "assist" to thinning acrylic paints for airbrushing.

2. Apply 70% isopropyl alcohol (straight, undiluted) to the dry ballast. I work on a 12" section of track at a time only due to the evaporation rate of alcohol. I apply it from an old Elmer's glue bottle that was thoroughly washed out and cleaned. An advantage of this method is that when properly applied, the dry ballast turns dark. You can see where you applied enough, and where you didn't. I suspect that an issue in your method is that the ballast is not wet enough.

3. Apply the dilute matte medium down the center of the ties, and along both outside rail edges on the tie edges. I just flood it on using a squeeze bottle much like yours. It goes straight down into the ballast.

4. Spray the section with ISO alcohol diluted in water. This forces any remaining white blobs to dissolve down. If any remain I use the edge of a paper towel to pick them up via capillary action.

Another variable in the process is the composition of your ballast, which has not been stated in prior posts. Different mixtures of rock, crushed shells or whatever will have different surface tension and thus different ability to absorb liquid.

It must be the empty jar of beer in the middle....

????

Nick

OK I found it

I mixed many mixtures with different glues etc. Here’s the deal........whether you use Matte or Elmers you need to mix the glue and water together thoroughly before adding any isopropyl. It doesn’t seem to work when iso is added to a straight or heavy concentration of glue. Tons of glue blobs no matter how hard you mix. If you read patentwriter’s no fail recipe it also uses that order of mixing.This also supports why isopropyl can be used in a straight wetting solution as it is combining  with an already mixed and diluted glue and it plays nice in that situation. If you continue to have problems dump the iso and go to a couple of drops of the clearest soap you can find. 

Nice work Rick!

In retrospect it makes good sense.

Nick

Excellent!

I did a test this afternoon to see if alcohol affects the matte medium settling out.  I mixed a 3:1 (probably closer to 4:1) of distilled water and matte medium.  After letting it set for an hour or so, I was still seeing matte medium settling out, but nowhere near as much as before.  So Rick, it appears the 10-15% ratio of matte you use is pretty close to the max that will remain in solution, which is why you don't see any settling.

The ballast I'm using is all Woodland Scenics: fine buff on the spurs, and a mixture of fine and medium gray on the main track.  Up to this point I had just been using tap water, but I've found a jug of distilled water and will use that going forward.

I also changed out my wetting solution to a mixture of 91% iso and enough distilled water to get it down to about 70% (didn't have any 70% on hand) as patentwriter suggested.  I used that to wet some touch-ups and it worked better than the previous method.

Also, patentwriter may be correct in that I'm not getting the ballast wet enough first.  So I'm going to prepare another squirt bottle of wetting solution.  Then I can use the mister to get the top layer wet without disturbing it, go back with the squirt bottle and add more wetting to get a deep soak (but not too wet), and then squirt/drop on the matte mixture.

When I do the next section of track, I'll test out these changes and see how it works.

Craig

BNML2.....WS ballast

It might be worth the effort to test a different brand of ballast. Google “Woodland Scenics ballast walnut shells”.

whether all the info is correct or not many people prefer other brands that seem to be derived from heavier rock materials rather than the light weight composition of WS. In the past I’ve done some good work using WS but I am much happier with what I use now.

btw............ congratulations on your progress!

Matte Medium mix

I use Modge Podge matte mixed 3 parts water and one part Modge Podge. No alcohol. Spred your ballast and wet thoroughly with 50-50 isopropyl alcohol/water. I use a dropper to apply all liquids. I saturate the ballast between the rails and capillary action will cause the alcohol/water mix to wet the ballast outside the rails. Add a drop or two anywhere it doesn't get thru the ties. Next run your Modge Podge mix between the rails you will see the white liquid seep out into the outside ballast pushing the alcohol/water ahead of it. When the Modge Podge mixture soaks in, re-saturate between the rails. You might see some white skin from the Modge Podge, it can easily be removed with tweezers. When dry (24+ hours) a wire brush or a dental pick can be used to remove stray ballast particles.

I don't use WS ballast. Real rock is the way to go, it doesn't float.

Hope this helps,

Fred

Matte Medium

Agree with Fred. I wet the ballast with 50/50 alcohol from the dollar store using a pump hair-spray bottle to mist it. Really soak it, a foot to 18" at a time. Then using a baby-medicine dropper (which has a large capacity) I dribble on 1:4 matte medium (diluted with water only) till is see it saturate the ballast. For turnouts, I dribble only outside the rails and let capillary action draw it into the middle. This prevents getting a film of MM on the tops of the turnout ties, which can hang up the point movement. Oh, and shake the MM well once in a while, as it will settle. If I do get the occasional "glob", I tweeze it off of grab it with the corner of a paper towel. By the way, the little baby medicine spoon is great for applying the ballast. Gotta love the Dollar Tree. 

Latest results are much better!

Life has taken over the last several months with key projects at work, family obligations, and other tasks around the house.  However, I did finally get around to finishing ballasting the left half of my layout.  Following all of the various tips offered in this thread, the results are very much improved from the initial efforts.

I pulled all of the jars and bottles out of my scenery box to see where I had left off.  Apparently I'm giving my memory way more credit than it deserves as nothing was labeled with its contents!  I fixed that by labeling the main jars with the contents and mixing ratios so I at least know for next time.

I ended up using a wetting solution of approximately 70% isopropyl alcohol and distilled water.  I only have 91% iso on hand so I diluted it down to about 70%.  First, I sprayed the ballast from a fine misting bottle to get the ballast wet, then I would go back and apply more wetting solution from a dripper bottle where a more thorough wetting was needed.

Next I used an adhesive solution of about 4:1 distilled water and Matte Medium only (no iso used), shake well and then let it sit for a while so that any extra matte medium or sediment not in solution could settle out.  After settling, I transferred it to a dripper bottle and applied to the ballast between the ties and outside the rails. I would apply until the ballast just started to look like it was getting flooded.

Finally, I went back with the misting bottle of wetting solution for a light overspray.  This helped to break up and disperse any remaining puddles of adhesive solution.  Any white puddles left on the ties after that were dabbed up with a Q-tip.

After it all dried, if there were any areas that needed a bit more adhesive, it's simply a matter of applying a few drops of wetting solution directly on the area followed by several drops of adhesive solution.

Craig

Thanks

Appreciate the update.  All the good, verified instructions in one post.

Matte Medium

I am having the same problem with Scenic Express Matte Medium.  Looking at the product I can actually see the white specs in the solution.   Shacking does not cause them to dissolve.

I purchased some Liquitex Matte Medium and diluted it about 4:1 with water.  No white specs any more.

My process is to mist on rubbing alcohol with a hair stylist mister and then use a dropper to apply the dilute matte medium.

Ken Harstine

Holyoke, MA, USA