Pelsea

There has been a lot of arguing discussion lately about the merits of two attitudes, which at the extremes can be summarized as "It must be beautiful even if it has nowhere to go" vs. "I don't care what it looks like as long as the trains are on time". Everyone seems to have staked out a spot along that line, and many are vociferous in the defense of their position. Personally, I am probably closer to the art end, but I feel all approaches are valid and potentially fun. I also have no illusions that either approach is particularly "real". Ops can not be fully prototypical unless you are getting a paycheck and working in 10 below weather; the most perfect model cannot escape the fact it is 10" long. To get either, you would have to buy a railroad (I know where there's one for sale). The prototype is an inspiration which you can follow with any degree of rigor.

The enjoyment of model railroading depends on the suspension of disbelief. A 2 year old pushing wooden cars along router shaped track has no conflict with reality-- this is just fun to do. Eventually, a child learns to associate this toy with something in the real world--maybe by train rides, maybe by Thomas on television. She knows she is playing with a toy, but at the same time, she is using her imagination to populate the world with everything that is missing-- scenery, freight and people, among other things. As we grow older, the gap between the toy and known reality widens. It becomes more difficult to believe in the world of the toy. One way to reinforce the belief is to make the toy more "realistic". Put it on a track that may only go in a circle but populates the field of vision with things that do not flatly contradict the imaginary world. Another way is to develop a stronger imagination-- to focus not on the visual world, but on the action of the participants. You have already figured out where each path can lead.

There are benefits and disadvantages in both approaches.

If you pursue artful realism, you will spend a lot of money on tools, craftsman kits, and exotic materials, and spend hours at the workbench for every minute running the layout. It will probably be a couple of years before you can even run a train, at least through the finished section of the layout. In fact, you may not finish the thing before you die. The benefits are you get a thing of beauty that even your non-railroading friends and family can admire. You can post pictures of your models on the pickier forums with no embarrassment, and you may even get your efforts written up in a magazine. The work itself is pleasant, indoors with no heavy lifting. It is especially rewarding to achieve an advanced quality on a model, and extremely frustrating if your skills or work environment are not up to the task.

If you focus on operations, you really need a fair amount of space. Trains move things from here to there-- if all you have is "here", what can you do? You need a higher degree of reliability, so even though you can get away with economy rolling stock, you will spend a lot of time tweaking and tuning. Your track may sit on unpainted plywood, but it must be electrically and mechanically bulletproof. The benefits are economy (although not as much as some might think) and you get to spend most of your time actually using the thing you are spending time and money on. It is "play" in the same sense that you play basketball or I play bassoon (more fun than you might think.) Your family and casual visitors may be politely unimpressed with the look of the layout, but you will develop a circle of friends who share your approach and will form the core of a social network that the artistic lone wolves have to develop another way.

Of course, the ideal layout provides both. The most elaborate prairie can grow scenery, or at least the plywood can be painted and the tools picked up. Even ProtoXX track allows the movement of trains, and it only takes a little extra planning to make this movement purposeful, even if that is just to stop for passengers every other time around.

So, what have you done (or plan) to strike a balance between art and ops? What can you not disbelieve?

pqe

Reply 1
Oztrainz

This looks interesting...

Hi Pelsea and all,

I wonder where this topic will develop? I hope that this brings out some of the reasoning behind who does what on model rails how and why.

I'll keep my powder dry for now, but will probably chip in later with some examples of my personal take on your original posting. I probably will confuse everyone by working from different positions, because that "suspension of disbelief" requires both a different foundation position as well as a different level of application for each of the layouts I can personally discuss.

Let the fun begin,. 

Regards,

John Garaty

Unanderra in oz

Read my Blog

Reply 0
Wabash Banks

Great Topic

Great topic that shouldn't start a war or anything!!! I will say the following is my opinion. I am not sure why when someone disagrees with someone else's approach it goes straight to assuming someone is doing it wrong. I hate that...its a big enough hobby to support any way you want to do it...

For me, it is firmly on the art side. I am a builder first followed by an ops guy second. I see the bare layouts with minimal scenery and I have to say I don't THINK I would like that. It SEEMS to me to be little more than pushing a model here and there and the disparity between detail in the model and the lack in the scenery keeps me from thinking I would enjoy it. I would just as soon push wooden trains around wooden track. I want to be drawn into the scene. I grew up around trains living RIGHT beside the track. The house shook when they passed. It is an attempt to create some of the nostalgia I have, even in a different time period, and evoke as much emotion for the viewer and operator. If you stop to look at my modeling I want you to FEEL something, just a painter wants you to feel something when you look at their painting. To me it is the same idea, different medium, one that happens to be 3D and interactive. What I don't get much enjoyment from is layouts that only go round and round. It's nice for a minute but as soon as I derive some sense of place it fails to further engage me. That said I have an appreciation for a continuous loop stashed in the layout so the train can just run while I use it as background noise, much like a tv tuned to something you aren't really watching. It also does make for a nice background at the club layout while we are talking to visitors. 

When I model i don't model faithful prototype because the historian in me gets in the way too much and I try to recreate a scene too faithfully to the point it can interfere with operating the thing.I go for a proto freelance to just freelance. I want to create and open wide the throttle of my imagination.

Reply 0
ctxmf74

"if all you have is "here",

Quote:

"if all you have is "here", what can you do?"

A  small operating  layout can be just "here" if one chooses an appropriate prototype  to model. Something like the DL&W Harlem Transfer ,C&O Brooke ave, or ATSF Alice St. terminals or a one town scene like Belair Md. on the Ma and Pa can be built very realistically in a small space (even a very small space if one uses N scale).  Like most problems in the hobby lack of space can be overcome with experience,thought,or research.....DaveB

Reply 0
John Colley

scenery?

Interesting the range/ scope of views! Something I learned while operating on Joe's Siskiyou line many years ago, even though he had a lot of scenery on Rice Hill. When operating running a train you don't really notice scenery, but when you are "in the hole" on a siding, waiting for a green signal, you really notice the surrounding scenery details! So it makes sense to concentrate your efforts on making the end of siding locales the very most intensive scenery. Other areas along the main require a more minimal approach to avoid distraction. Just the suggestion of a forest or farm, or the industrial outskirts of a town, will do. If you have ever ridden a train into a big city, the approaches are usually a dismal collection of back yards, and dead or dying commercial/industrial scenes. John Colley, Sonoma, CA

Reply 0
JC Shall

Scenery When Running

Quote:

When operating running a train you don't really notice scenery

Well, I think that really depends on the person.  In my case I do notice the scenery while running through it.  I may be the engineer, but I'm also a railfan of the train.  I love to watch the train moving through the different scenes.

Reply 0
gnagle

More Play Than Anything

My personal balance between art and ops falls heavily into the play category because I involve my grandsons, ages 8 and 5 in my HO layout. I have to say--they are the ones that bring in the ops via a Lionel Polar Express and MTH locos on a DCS system. The 8-year-old can operate the DCS locos, while the 5-year-old can use the much simpler Lionel remote. They stop them at the stations, pick up and drop cars, etc.

The art is in my scratchbuilt buildings, various craftsman kit "structures (Bar Mills) and other delicate items that I keep a little further back from the edge out of reach of little hands.  Most of the stuff near the layout edge is more "kid friendly."

And for the pure joy of play for both age groups (and nostalgia for my own youth) I have some of the old HO By Lionel operating things, like the log dump station.

George (Opa) Nagle

Tiger Mountain Barge & Navigation Co. (build 3)

Harrisburg, PA

Reply 0
Virginian and Lake Erie

Jack, I think you nailed it

Jack, I think you nailed it with that one. I also enjoy the scenery when moving a train. I have rolled up to a model coal mine and dropped flagmen to protect the train from following moves (there are no opposing moves to worry with) And then dropped off more of the crew to throw switches, pull pins, etc. At the end the train is laced up and the brakes tested and the rest of the crew picked up and away we go.

Now while I am doing this it I notice the scenery. I don't study it as I could if I was parked in a siding but I notice it. If it was not there I would notice it being absent. Now if you are someone that is fine with that you have found a way to save a great deal of money by skipping structures, trees, ballast etc. You have won early. For my own railroad I will build scenery as far as my skills allow as that pleases me.

Big tent here multiple ways to do things and you need to choose what is right for you. I would also say that if you decide you want scenery don't wait for all of it to be built before you start your operations. Even if you do want scenery it takes time to build it and it is nice to get the track and operating system checked out first. Making changes before scenery is easier than after as are repairs.

Figure you will enjoy the railroad while scenery is being built and you will enjoy it more after it is built if you are in the scenery needs group.

Reply 0
GNNPNUT

So, what have you done (or

Quote:

So, what have you done (or plan) to strike a balance between art and ops? What can you not disbelieve?

What I've done to date:

  • On my old part of the layout, get in the scenery shell (hard shell).
  • Get the backdrops up on the whole layout, paint them sky colored. 
  • Progress the layout with scenery as time and ambition allow.  I don't concentrate on a lot of details, just go for an overall flavor.  I can always go back and detail better. 
  • Start proto-ops again, even though I don't have completed scenery.  Cut-out building plans on foam core, even boxes, stand in for industrial buildings.  The operations plan "evolves" as industries come on line, and my large yard inches towards completion.
  • Institute all of the must haves for TT&TO operation.  This also allows me to see how things are "working", and make changes. 
  • Op sessions for the most part insure that I "clean up after myself", so there are not tools laying around the layout, except for an industrial area where we store the bulk of the "in process" stuff.  That area will probably be the last to get completed. 

For me, getting back into proto-operations is the motivator to keep going on layout improvements.  I like to have something "new" for my crews to experience every operating session.  I don't always reach my goal due to work and family commitments.  I also make sure that improvements are made to minimize derailments, electrical issues, and cantankerous motive power.  THis layout will be my "retirement job", and there is a LOT to do. 

I can "disbelieve" just about anything.  It is my railroad, and I can imagine that my "alternate existence" makes perfect sense, to me.  The trick is to get others to buy into your vision.  So far, I have about 25 people that are attending sessions (ovbiously not all at once) making my alternate existence come alive.  

What I like about TT&TO operations is that I can model "Chaos".  Shortage of crews?  Trains don't run until a crew is available.  Track capacity becomes cluttered?   That is the dispatcher's job to sort out, they are well compensated with coffee and danish at the end of the night with one group, beer throughout the session in the other. 

For me, there is nothing more rewarding than seeing trains move through the layout between Spokane / Cle-Elum (west staging) and St. Regis (east staging), thus mimicking a transportation system in action.  I can do that with unweathered motive power and equipment (which I would prefer it all be weathered, but time constraints come into play), half built and cut-out buildings, and unfinished scenery.    

I had to combine the dispatcher and operator job during the last session, and I ended up doing the job.  I got just as much fun "creating" the train sheet, and three pages of records in the "Train Dispatchers Order Book":

20record.JPG 

as I did as doing this open top load:

0resized.jpg 

 

or this scene

0resized.jpg 

GNNPNUT

Reply 0
Neil Erickson NeilEr

Back to Givens & Druthers

I'm on the fence over this question as it begs the question regarding why I build "railroad models" or "model railroads". I believe that I was attracted to building all things railroad was not the prototype but that 1969 article about John Allan in MR. The idea of creating a world where trains bridged streams and connected towns is still a very powerful memory.  Later when reading Frank Ellison's The Art Of Model Railroading the bridge between reality and "the stage" became more clear to me. It is all, to a greater or lesser degree, a suspension of disbelief. 

While in the process of building my layout over the years running trains is certainly a huge motivator to making progress on scenery and structures. Without that, however, my imagination cannot sustain the interest in operations when a box represents a building or plywood a bridge. That's clearly my druthers and may be shared by others, or not. 

It is an interesting conversation as we are all going to take away what we want and either live with that or not move forward by letting our druthers become givens. Someday I may be able to design a layout and create a space to match but, until then, I am enjoying the route available to me today. 

Neil Erickson, Hawai’i 

My Blogs

Reply 0
sdpjr59

Query...

Uh... Pelsea (or anyone else)? I'm a newbie. Whatis this ProtoXX of which you speak?
Reply 0
James Six

We are human beings and as

We are human beings and as such we all are different. We each have out likes and dislikes. I will not operate on a layout without truly good scenery and structures. I am not even interested in layouts with "weak" scenery. The reason I am building my layout and operate it is to immerse myself into the whole thing to get the feelings and emotions of being "there" and experiencing what the real train crews experienced in the time that I am modeling and in the setting. I cannot achieve this without truly realistic scenery. I am NOT about running trains. I am all about living the experience of the train crew.

This is why my layout is at chest height. This is why my layout is not double deck. I want my face right there so that I can become part of what is happening. This is why I will NOT have electrically operated switches. I use ground throws so that the brakemen on my trains can "experience" what real brakemen experienced. This is why I use a pick to uncouple cars - so that the brakeman can at least semi-experience what the real brakemen experienced. At least my brakemen have to go through the motions.

The above said, when I operate the layout we use paperwork (switchlists, train orders, and other items) that the real train crews used. We also operate as the prototype operated. We run trains only at scale speeds. We pause to pump air, we try to do everything that real train crews did. Remember. I am modeling 1925 to 1935 so things were different from what they are today. My model railroad is my time machine. It takes me back to the roaring twenties. It will not work without realistic scenery AND realistic operation.

Now for a dig. I have been to too many operating sessions that have all the paperwork, have a dispatcher, etc., but they do not operate the trains as real train crews operated. That is not real to me at all.

Reply 0
David Husman dave1905

ProtoXX

Some modelers build track to exact prototype scale dimensions and use wheels with scale sized treads and flanges.    Very detailed, very precise, very tight tolerances.  Those type of track and wheel standards are called "Proto" plus the scale, as in Proto48, Proto87, etc.  Referring to "ProtoXX" is basically just a generic reference to using prototype wheel and track standards for the track and running gear.

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index:  Dave Husman Blog Index

Reply 0
David Husman dave1905

But...

Quote:

That is not real to me at all.

But did they have fun?

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index:  Dave Husman Blog Index

Reply 0
James Six

But...

Dave,

They all had a blast!

They all were definitely into a different flavor of model railroading than I am into. Not a thing wrong with that. I am nobody to judge others. I am happy for folks that are happy with what they build. operate, and enjoy. That's all a good thing, . . . just not my thing. Having Aspergers my whole life I know that I am the oddity, not others.

Reply 0
ctxmf74

ProtoXX track????

Quote:

 "Even ProtoXX track allows the movement of trains, and it only takes a little extra planning to make this movement purposeful, even if that is just to stop for passengers every other time around."

   The "even" makes it seem that it's not referring to proto 48 or 87 or whatever scale since they are the most likely to be realistic. It appears that this "ProtoXX track "could be some kind of toy trains? .....DaveB

Reply 0
Pelsea

ProtoXX is proto48 or whatever..

I was thinking of extremes, that even the most detail focused layout has trains that move, and that even if all you have is a simple loop, you can give the trains purpose. Thus any layout can have operations.

It is interesting to see people express their position vis a vis ops vs. art, but I am most interested in finding common "tells"-- lapses in scenery or operation that break the spell. For instance, food on the layout is a scenic turnoff for me, especially if it has been there a while. The operational flow is instantly killed by any electrical problem.

pqe

Reply 0
Virginian and Lake Erie

My preferences are for

My preferences are for realistic scenery. With that said I would not fail to operate trains on a layout that is under construction. The layout can be enjoyed but just not as much as when everything is completed.

Powered switches signals etc are fine if they would fit what is being modeled. Some areas had dark territory and TO/TT ops would be the norm. I just read on-line that in 1918 Pennsy began modernization of its signals to what they had in more modern times, prior to that they had a different signal system. So based on that and the era modeled signals may or may not be appropriate.

In all cases research would indicate what a particular prototype did and how they did it. If a free lancer what did a similar prototype do under similar circumstances? All of that adds to the level of realism. I think it is helpful and makes it more enjoyable with rather than with out.

If someone is doing something different no big deal the person you need to please is you.

Reply 0
Nick Santo amsnick

Hmmmmmmm......

It is interesting, Pelsea, that you bring this up today.  I visited a club today with an “old” section and a “new” section.  The club has 60 members and has their own owned  building.  They only run one Saturday a month.  The old section is extremely well done and very near finished.  The new section has a running mainline and significant structure, scenery and backdrop.  It also had a very interesting owner/responsibility structure.  

Twenty or so of the members came today for a work session.  One member took a train around the major mainline and I got some pictures of that happening.  I thoroughly enjoyed the time I had with my hands in my pockets watching a double header of 6 axle locos pull 25 or 30 new white refers around the old section and the new section of the club layout.  I was aware of my surroundings on both sections but never offended by the unfinished parts.

I didn’t get the feeling that the lack of finger splints were for mistakes not made at the last operating session.

I know precious little about operations from my brief time as a conductor and engineer and want to emulate some of the practices that I have learned and remember.  I enjoy my lone wolf status in my celllar for now but long for the time when I can get people to come and bring my railroad to life.  I feel I have a way to go before it’s ready to “show.”  What I have done is chosen tasks that I do well and scratch built a lot of structures to the best of my ability, brought railcars and locomotives up to good running and basic appearance standards,  made track and electronics as bulletproof as I can, sceniced as far as I have gone, put all my locomotives and railcars into a database and started to prepare for operations “in the dark.”  It all takes time!!!

To summarize, I wonder if the whole model railroading thing isn’t an evolution of an individual from a newbie into a person with some knowledge and experience into (what that person aspires and re-aspires to be) a more rounded craftsman and operator.  The fine part is that unlike a working on the railroad as a job we can spend time in the parts of the hobby we enjoy most and let the parts we don’t be of less importance....... for a while.  By the way do you know anyone who would like to make 100 fine quality trees for me???   I will learn and do some fine trees eventually.  That will be the challenging part!   For years I have been the ass that occasionally eats burgers and if I lived close to Jim I know I would also enjoy some hands in my pockets time learning how to operate on his layout and eventually evolving to where I would be invited to operate it also.  (I’ve mellowed a little in retirement so the hands in the pocket time would be appreciated.)  It might balance like an inflated balloon with no divots in it after a while.  After all beauty or belief is in the eye of the beholder.  

Thanks for the initiating the thoughts.

Nick

Nick

https://nixtrainz.com/ Home of the Decoder Buddy

Full disclosure: I am the inventor of the Decoder Buddy and I sell it via the link above.

Reply 0
Graham Line

Need for scenery

In the early days of our club layout, when we were building out Phase 2 and planning Phases 3 and 4, my favorite assignment was dispatching, from a remote cubicle 25 feet away from the railroad. Why? Because all of the scenery in there was finished.

Reply 0
JWhite

I think that there is

I think that there is something in the hobby for everyone.  I would never begrudge anyone their personal preferences in the hobby.  It's all about having fun. 

I am building my layout using the TOMA approach.  I have the first two modules almost complete.  I still have to build some structures.  But that doesn't stop me from enjoying switching on those modules even though only one industry is more then an empty space.

Once a week I go to a friend's large layout and operate with him.  He has a large basement filling layout that models the yards and industries in the East St Louis/Madison, IL area.  The layout was originally a three man project, but over the years one passed away and the other moved out of state.

The large layout is basically bulletproof track on plywood.  Some of the plywood is painted and there are some buildings at some of the industries.  It's DC because that's what was available when it was built.  The layout owner is a retired railroader and I really enjoy operating with him because I m learning a lot about how the railroads did things.  When I'm building a train in South Yard I don't notice that the track isn't ballasted and there are no weeds between the tracks.  I guess I'm too busy making sure I pull the right cars and get them in the right order for the transfer run.

On my own layout I'm a modeler.  I built models for a couple years before the first rail went down on my first module.  When I started running those models I discovered that there were a couple I built that looked great, but didn't operate all that well.  Without a working layout to run them on, I had no way of knowing.  A test track isn't the same as running them in a train and through switches.

My friend with the large layout tells me he doesn't make a lot of progress on scenery because he'd rather run trains.  Who am I to tell him that he needs scenery to enjoy the hobby?  I enjoy operating there, and I enjoy operating at home.

It's a hobby.  It's supposed to be fun.  I think sometimes we get caught up in the aspects of the hobby we love the most and think that anything different isn't model railroading.

I've learned a lot about railroading, both 1:1 and 1:87 sizes from my friend with a Plywood Pacific. 

Jeff White

Alma, IL

 

Reply 0
YoHo

I myself am a bit of a Jack

I myself am a bit of a Jack of All trades, Master of none kinda guy.

But I think the appeal of the art end is stronger to me. In particular I can sling plaster, paint and ground foam all day. I enjoy operations, but just the idea of the work involved in setting up for it makes me frustrated.

 

 

Reply 0
Jamie@M160

Jeff covers it well...

I think this hobby really is about enjoying what you like most at any given point (hour, day, year). If operations is your thing (shiny object at the moment, whatever...) then that’s where our priorities are.  If you love a realistic layout and watching trains go by, then that’s what you pursue.  If you like challenging yourself to build ultra realistic scenes, that’s all that matters.  We pursue these hobbies out of enthusiasm. Model railroading is very unique in how many facets there are in this hobby from skill sets (electrical, carpentry, programming, scratch building, painting, scenicing, troubleshooting, operations, weathering and more...) to even the basic question of what scale to model.  So it should surprise no one that we all have different things we enjoy in this hobby that constantly evolve and change.  

 

late-sml.png 

Reply 0
AzBaja

Weeding out the invite cards.

Quote:

The layout can be enjoyed but just not as much as when everything is completed.

We need to start asking this question to make it easier to select operators from our large operating pool.

Will not having finished or complete scenery, make this operating session less enjoyable or diminish your operating experience in anyway?  Y/N ____

Now that we know you will not or cannot fully enjoy the layouts in the operating session group we can offer your spot to someone else that will be fully thrilled to operate on the layouts.   When we get the layouts to the level that we think will meet your enjoyment satisfaction, then we will contact you.

AzBaja
---------------------------------------------------------------
I enjoy the smell of melting plastic in the morning.  The Fake Model Railroader, subpar at best.

Reply 0
Lancaster

Checking my mail box

Quote:

When we get the layouts to the level that we think will meet your enjoyment satisfaction, then we will contact you.

 

Reply 0
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