Gives credence to my observations

This gives good credence to my observations that bone-dry rail arcs more and the oxide builds up faster.

By making sure the rail is damp with a thin lubricant film, there is less arching and so the build-up is a lot slower.

For this reason, using laquer thinner or 90% isopropyl alcohol to clean the track is not such a good idea - it leaves the track bone dry when it evaporates.

But cleaning the track (and loco wheels) with mineral spirits works well, and I make no attempt to wipe the track dry or to wipe the loco wheels dry when cleaning in this way.

When observed with the room lights off, there is less visible arching on loco wheels and track cleaned with mineral spirits - and apparently less oxide build-up as a result. Some have swore by Wahl clipper oil for years, I suspect the effect is similar to mineral spirits.

Interesting

Thanks for taking the time to get the analysis done. Very interesting read.

Roy

Amazing!

You should really be submitting these things to MRH as side bars!  Great read indeed!

Since first reading your thoughts on mineral spirits Joe, I have been convinced in my own mind that the fluids that leave this "wet" coating actually help to increase conductivity between the wheels and the track, reducing the oxides that are formed by the arcing.

However I never thought of the metal wheels acting as cleaners.  That would explain why the more you run the cleaner it stays perhaps?

Very interesting stuff!

No-Ox

This analysis only makes me think that the sanding/No-Ox application on my tracks a month ago (and still going strong!) is preventing a lot of these problems...people should seriously consider that approach.

~rb

So what about dust, and where does that leave graphite?

Dear MRH fans,

I too am intrigued by this research. I totally agree about the conclusions reached the that the "black gunk" is Nickel oxide. It has been long touted that Nickel Oxide is more conductive that Steel/iron oxide, hence the preference for NS rail over steel.

However, I'm not sure I take the "logical follow-on" that wet rail treatments are "therefore the answer". The "Black Gunk" is only 1 part of the equation, dust/dirt/airborne impurities are another, which these tests have not taken into account.

Wet treatments, (IE those that _stay wet_) are dust adhesives and collectors. Quite literally, if dust lands on the wet treatment, it gets stuck there.

I regularly cover my layouts at shows with polyethelene dropcloths overnight, and the sheer ammount of dust collected on them each night leads me to consider airborne contaminants (dust/dirt/etc) a very serious concern.

I'd also ask, how does Graphite factor into these results? It appears to aid in long-term conductivity, particularly where a layout has long periods of inactivity. (Possibly it provides a "oxygen-excluding coating" similar to those provided by the "wet treatments" noted earlier in the thread). However, being a "dry" treatment, it does not act as an adhesive to insulating/non-conductive airborne contaminants.

Thoughts?

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Interesting

Perhaps someone with a busy double track main can test the theory out on a few feet of track side by side.  Treat one with the mineral spirits, treat the other with graphite and see over time what works out better. 

Vehemently Agreeing

I suspect everyone is right to a point. Consider:

Fact 1: Silver Nickel oxidizes
Fact 2: Silver Nickel oxide less electrically conductive than base alloy
Fact 3: Dust will accumulate on rails
Fact 4: Dust on rails degrades electrical contact
Thus:   Preventing oxidation and minimizing dust is the solution
Fact 5: Oxygen barrier between rail and atmosphere will prevent oxidation
Fact 6: Dust collection is virtually impossible to prevent
Fact 7: Dry barrier will retain less dust than wet layer

Given these facts the logical steps to improving locomotive operations are:

1. Create an environment that generates least amount of dust possible
2. Remove dust from rails as frequently as practical
3. Treat rail with a surface coating having the following characteristics:

a. Dry
b. Electrically conductive
c. Thin film, to minimize dimensional change
d. Hard, to tolerate wear
e. Long lasting, to reduce maintenance
f. Non-hazardous

The picture becomes quite clear why Bill recommended the conversion coating. It fulfills the requirements exactly. Except maybe for the hazardous part, can't have everything!

The oil applications, CRC film, graphite particles, and sanding each check some of the boxes in the ideal list but not all. To me this explains why there are fans of each method yet none are accepted as the total solution.

We need a specialized passivating conversion coating. I sense a business opportunity!

Agreed

Yes, I did not mean to convey the feeling that the "wet" rail is an ideal answer, only that it seems to help.

No doubt about it stuff in the air is more likely to stick to track with a residue on it.  I wonder if it's less of a problem the more you run trains and when running rolling stock with metal wheels?

Great discussion guys!

Super discussion

I go with keeping the train room clean, running trains frequently,  and metal wheels on everything. I do want to try no ox or such.  Is that the same stuff that electricians put on electrical panel feeds?

BTW, It would seem that some sort of  on board super capacitor system could eliminate most dirty track issues.

Dear Aran, Cannot be sure,

Dear Aran,

Cannot be sure, but down here in Oz, "No-Ox" or "De-OxIt" treatments/wipes,\
(which I use to refurb Pro Audio consoles, faders, and pots),

does not appear to be _exactly_ the same as the more internationally common "CRC" pressure-pack "electrical cleaner",
(CRC appears thicker, and stays liquid longer).

As far as "Super Caps" go, proceed with caution,
you're opening the door for the onboard RC guys to chime in...

http://www.carendt.com/scrapbook/page80/index.html#9

http://www.freerails.com/view_topic.php?id=1813&forum_id=45

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Dear LK, MRH fans, OK, I'll

Dear LK, MRH fans,

OK, I'll bite

PK: Answers within text

Given these facts the logical steps to improving locomotive operations are:

1. Create an environment that generates least amount of dust possible

PK: For show layouts that may have to operate anywhere, not really possible.
PK: For layouts in "California Basements", cement floor dust may be an inherrent/common issue?

2. Remove dust from rails as frequently as practical

PK: Or, as has been suggested, run more trains

3. Treat rail with a surface coating having the following characteristics:

PK: Easy, do-able

PK: taking graphite, let's see how it stacks up

a. Dry PK; Check

b. Electrically conductive PK: Check

c. Thin film, to minimize dimensional change PK: Check

d. Hard, to tolerate wear

PK: Interesting. I prefer to use 2B grade graphite sticks, because the softer grade drops slightly more graphite than a harder grade.

PK: In terms of "does the train motion wear it away?" I'd respond
"if the wheels of the equipment are coated in graphite,
then they re/distribute the graphite far more than they wear it away"

PK: in consequence, I have a strict "NO Foreign Equipment" policy on my layouts, esp at shows, unless
1 - they can be shown to have had a fresh wheelclean
and/or
2 - they have come from a known graphite-treated layout

You wouldn't vacuum and clean all the carpet and rugs in your house,
then immediately tromp thru the house with your dirty muddy workboots on???

PK: Graphite treated wheels tend to pickup and carry less contaminants, for the same reasons that dust doesn't stick to graphite'd rails. As a practical example, I had to build a fleet of log cars for a friend's HO/HOn3/HOn30 show layout here. These cars were MDC "3in1" sets, using the OEM plastic wheelsets. They _never_ operated on any other layout, and were "graphite treated" from day 1. After 8 years of show operation, the layout and all rollingstock was sold. The new owner thanked my friend for "replacing all of the MDC wheelsets with new as part of the sale", there was insignificant wear to be seen, and none of the classic "dust/grot-caked tread" of long-service MDC/Athearn plastic wheelsets  

PK; I personally stick with metal wheelsets from P2K, Athearn, Kadee, Steam Era Models, and AM models now, but the results over 15+ years of testing speak for themselves IMHO 

e. Long lasting, to reduce maintenance

PK; If we assume "long lasting" = "under heavy train passage", then we've already covered that above.
In terms of "long lasting under no-train-movement + non-ideal layout storage conditions", how does storing the modules on a show layout in a unpainted concrete floor + un-insulated/unsealed fibro garage, thru sub 8 degree C winter and a following 40+ degree summer sound?

PK: there are a number of layouts here in Sydney Australia which withstand such conditions, and with graphite treatment on their side, can have a loco placed on the tracks and reliably "crawled away" after periods of inactivity spanning up to 12 months.

PK: in terms of "maintaining the coating", graphite can be most easily obtained and handled via art stores, where it is usually known as Woodless Pencils. I use the "Progresso" brand,

http://tinyurl.com/2f5stx7

PK: a simple "swipe" along the mainline railhead + some train movement will carry the graphite around the layout handily. Single ended spurs may need a dedicated swipe with the graphite stick due to their lower traffic movement, but "maintaining" a graphite rail coating is a very low-stress, low-effort activity.
(Notice a "hiccup" somewhere, swipe with graphite stick, next train thru = problem solved).

f. Non-hazardous

PK: Graphite, as in the stuff they make children's pencils from, because the original lead _was_ poisonous. If children can chew on this stuff and not be any more affected than "making a multicolored mess around their mouth", then I'd suggest it's v.possibly safer than many chemicals we commonly use in Model RRing....

PK: If I may add 2 more criteria

Cost = between US$2 and US$5/2B-grade stick
(which should last over 18 months of continuous "show layout" usage)

Availability = most art stores, and better-stocked newsagents/stationary stores
(Confirmed available in US, Australia, NZ, Germany, and UK).

I'm not saying graphite is the "be all and end all" solution either,
but I can't see anything in the list of criteria missing?

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PS on the Negative side of the ledger, graphite IS indeed a lubricant. Kadee's "Greas'em" is essentially powdered graphite, as is "Dry Lock Lubricant" as used by locksmiths and safe-mechanics. Ergo, If your locos are only _just_ pulling your grades now on "dry clean rail", they _will_ most likely slip on graphite'd rails.
(can be a benefit for small and micro-layout builders, where the sliding behaviour of graphite'd wheels/rails help minimise wear on the waaaay-tooo-tight radii curves  )

" PK: Graphite, as in the

" PK: Graphite, as in the stuff they make children's pencils from, because the original lead _was_ poisonous. If children can chew on this stuff and not be any more affected than "making a multicolored mess around their mouth", then I'd suggest it's v.possibly safer than many chemicals we commonly use in Model RRing...."

That is a myth, pencils have never contained lead.  They call the cooked  mixture of clay and graphite a 'lead'.  Graphite has been used since 1500.  Last time lead was used is by the Egyptians and Romans. 

The U.S. Air Force banned the use of graphite in planes as it will accelerate pitting of dissimilar metals and  causes corrosion. of aluminum.  But graphite is a good conductor so it will reduce the arking. Problem is it is a solid and not a liquide like the conducting oils (Whal, Nye) so you still have some arcking going on..  But then the oils will collect dust.  Then the slipping issue also kicks in. 

So clean and  polish the track and wheels cross face, not linear (lenght wise).  This will impart a cog type surface to both track and wheel similar to how a snow tire creates grip, by packing the snow under foot.  .

What ever floats your boat,  but it is a catch 22 no matter what.

Marc Fournier, Quebec 

Can you be more specific?

Marc:

Can you be more specific? Clean and polish how? With a bright boy? With sandpaper? With a file? With a cloth? With a piece of cork? With a pencil?

And with regard to the polishing, are you suggesting dry or with some sort of polishing compound?

Surface Area Consideration

We know from analysis the oxide is bound to the rail. It isn't simply sitting there. Any sanding or abrasion we know will initially remove the oxide but it will also roughen the surface thereby doing two things not to our benefit - surface enlargement and mechanical tooth. Just as paint sticks better to an abraded surface so will oxide. The micro scratching provides mechanical "tooth". Additionally, greater surface area means more area for oxide to form. Oxide that forms in the valley of the scratches will not be effectively removed by rolling train wheels. With the exception of removing existing oxide I can see no benefits to abrasion of the rails. In the long term it likely creates more issues than it solves.

A more proactive measure is needed instead of a reactive process. Prevent instead of remove or workaround.

I have no doubt the graphite improves conductivity on oxidized rails. The magnified image showed the oxide forms in individual, random shaped dots rather than a continuous film. Knowing that, it makes sense the graphite works because it in a sense creates a second conductive "rail" above the oxide. The electrical path is via the graphite particles touching the rails between the oxide dots. My issue with the graphite is not that it doesn't work but that it doesn't check all the boxes. The graphite will not create an oxygen barrier because it is a particulate not a film. While perhaps good at masking the problem, it is still a band aid fix because it doesn't address the root issue - oxidation. Eventually 100% of the track will become oxidized and which point a dump truck load of graphite won't fix it.

In all fairness, of all the proposed solutions none of which check all the boxes, I like graphite the best. At least it is dry.

Dear Marc, I can quickly

Dear Marc,

I can quickly grasp how to clean track/rails "accross the rails",

(with the high risk that for ME, Shinohara, and other "fine detail" track,
that one would run the very real risk to tearing rail off sideways away from the tiny cast-in "spike heads"),

but how does one clean wheels "accross the tread"?

Happy Modelling,
Aiming to Understand,
Prof Klyzlr

I see that one of the common

I see that one of the common remedies to all the different solutions presented is to run the trains frequently! I think this is the only hobby or situation in life where doing more actually requires less maintenance. Therefore, get off the forum and run your trains, now, and lots! Sorry, I gotta go now, Extra 2504 needs to be taken to Hamilton! 

I think this debate will rage on forever until the day we have internal power power (batterries??) in our locos. But it has been interesting!

Steve 

Dear LK, Agreed, graphite by

Dear LK,

Agreed, graphite by it's nature can't form a 100% continuous film. However, I've never had to take a dump-truck-load of graphite to any show that my layouts, (or layouts of friends who also use graphite), are attending,

(The maximum I carry is "1 graphite stick per operator"  ),

and in the cases of graphite-treated layouts which have not had a single wheel turn on them for up to 12 months, it's a simple case of "put the trains on the track, plug in the throttles, and crawl away"...
(As a switching and geared logging fan, a controlable/crawlable/reliable scale 0-10mph is both my benchmark and maximum under most operating conditions...)

I'm not looking for a thread hi-jack, but are there any regular "Show Layout" builders/operators here?
(IE build layouts that get stored between "show dates",
only to then be expected to "perform on demand" for the general public with relatively little notice/preparation, 
under what an only be described as "hostile show conditions"?)

If yes, I'd venture to suggest that such layouts are a far more challenging "proving ground" for any rail treatment/cleaning techniques
(IE despite the relative lack of regular track maintainence, are expected - nay - required to perform flawlessly at the drop of a hat),

than those which are relatively cozily ensconsed in a controllable home environment,
and as such, would love to hear their experience and take on this subject too...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Would if I Could

Steve,

I am stuck working in the office through the entire Labor Day weekend. It sucks. Unfortunately, jumping on MRH for a minute or two is as close as I can come to railroading. Doing so keeps me from going postal as I look out the window at the beautiful weekend everyone else is enjoying. Yeah, that's right I'm whining. My military stint proved to me you don't have to raise your hand to become a volunteer. Found out same applies in the workplace. At least the pay scale for the weekend assures me some of those new high $ ExactRail cars are in my future!

 I use metal wheels

I use metal wheels exclusively - any plastic ones are replaced during kit construction or when I replace the knockoff couplers with real Kadees - I also use ONLY genuine Kadee couplers. The ONLY time I've had to do any actual track cleaning was after paiting the rail sides - some may be so steady-handed that they never get a drop of paint on the railheads but that's definitely not me. But I also run trains - a LOT. To the detriments of getting the layout completed - once I have enough track to run I end up running as much as or more than building. I know some only run once or twice a month - once for the monthly op session and once to restage everything prior to the monthly op session, but I am always running trains on my layout. Combined with the metal wheels I think this is why I find any serious cleaning to be unnecessary. I don't apply any liquids to the track, either. My previous layout was in an unfinished basement, just bare insulation above and a bare concrete floor, and it had no problems either. I'm now in a carpeted spare bedroom and the only real difference is less dust on the rolling stock that gets left out.

--Randy

Stainless Steel Rail

The idea that Delrin plastic causes black gunk came from an old study done by a builder of electrical relays.  It is probably not relevant as relay contacts are not nickel-silver.  Brass and nickel-silver rail do develop a nice dark patina which looks nice but causes contact problems.  There is still a question about the lab test in question: Did the owner of the tested track sample use Delrin wheels?

Outdoor railroaders are using Stainless Steel Rail with good results.  This is an expensive option and the costs are weighed against the cost of using a Battery/RC system. 

Frequent operation with metal wheels keeps 12" = 1' rails and wheels bright and shiny!
 

Dirty Rail

It is great to see some logic and science applied to solving a problem. Good work on the analysis.

Now a few comments and observations. I'm primarily an analog and RF system designer, I deal with very low power levels up to tens of thousands or watts, so there are a wide variety of electrical connection and contact problems that crop up in my daily work.

Nickel-silver track has no silver. It was very disappointing for me to see articles on the NMRA site telling people to use nickel-silver rail because the oxide is conductive.

My own layout is about 50% nickel-silver-color and 50% brass. I live in a hot humid location and prior to last week did not climate control my layout area. For the last several months I fought poor connections, and problems were equally frequent on the brass and nickel-silver color areas of rail. Cleaning the brass was easier, the nickel silver color rail needed burnished with fiberglass to de-crud.

There are some myths about ATF and other oils. I find claims they are "conductive", or they "enhance conductivity". They are NOT conductors. They are insulators.

Despite that, I tried a recommended type of GM ATF. As with low to modest current hot-switched relay contacts....adding lube just made things worse. My best results came with dry rails and frequent running.

I will not use graphite. No good can come from that. The surface area is too small, the pressure too low, and there is no wiping. Graphite or carbons work on commutators and slip ring brushes because the brushes are soft and wear faster than the copper commutator, and they form fit themselves to have wide contact area. Also a brush connects to more than one contact at a time. The high resistance prevents "shorts" or shorted turn effects when multiple contact strips are bridged together.

When we do very high current low resistance contacts that do NOT bridge multiple contacts and do not require intentional resistance, we use mercury.

The real problem here is we have a hard wheel rolling on a hard surface, and we have maybe an ampere or less of current at 15 volts or so. Such a contact has no wiping action, and is going to be an arcing problem no matter what is done. This is just food for thought, but if I wanted to reduce arcing (which is the real problem) I would use multiple contacts summed through resistances to equalize currents. We'd be better off with a sliding contact, but that would look pretty bad.

I think what really needs to be done is use as many independent connection points (wheels) with equalization of currents (through low value resistors), and try to keep the load resistive and not inductive or capacitive. We need a better choice of materials, not gunk we smear on the track. What works for modest current low voltage relays should work for wheels and track.

Tom

No-Ox

I would like to add a comment here from my personal experiences.  I have not been a Model Railroader nearly as long as some members here but like all of us I love running trains and the emphasis is on 'running'.

My layout is nscale DCC and since I treated my rails with No-Ox I am happy to say I now 'run' trains.  Yes I still run my cleaning car to remove dust from the tracks and it does not matter whether I 'dry' or 'wet' clean, the frequency with which this needs to be done has decreased by more than 300%

Typically I will get a stall in a turnout with the usual 'click - click' giveaway and the loco's lights going off and losing sound.  Park the consist and send the 'cleaner' our for a couple of circuits and the problem goes away for the next 2 months or so.

Next big breakout.....

..... probably would be RC control with battery-powered locos. There are batteries available that can perform, and would put a realistic "refueling" requirement. At http://www.freerails.com/there is a forum dedicated to this. It renders all contact issues instantly obsolete. There is a guy who runs a great On3 OUTDOORS layout this way.

http://www.freerails.com/view_topic.php?id=1222&forum_id=17

No Ox long term results

Since the discussion about use of anti oxidant compounds  (specifically "No-Ox-ID-A"), I researched products, and ended up buying some GB "Ox-Gard" from my local hardware store.  The Ox-Gard appears to be substantially the same as the more expensive, mail-order-only No-Ox-ID-A product, and it's less than 10 bucks at my local store.

Starting the beginning of this year (Jan, 2011), as I laid track, I cleaned it and used 600 grit to take off the oxidation, then applied Ox-Gard.  Subsequent track maintenance has consisted of only occasionally running a masonite-pad-equipped track cleaning car around the track that is in service.  I have had no electrical continuity problems, and not had areas where I have had to re-clean the track.  With decades of history running trains, this is by far the best solution I have ever used for the problem of conductivity.

Even on sidings/spurs that sit un-used for long periods, I can run a loco in to and out of the section of track without problems.  My layout is in a spare bedroom, so the dust problem is much less than, say, a garage, but still, there is some.  The big test was recently, when, after not running anything for a month, a friend was over, and wanted to see the progress.  With no prep., I turned on the power, and ran over the entire layout with no glitches, and no Murphy's Laws moments.

Additional info:  All rail is nickel silver; each section of rail has a soldered feeder wire, or is soldered to an adjacent rail that has a soldered feeder; almost all of the rolling stock has metal wheels; I cleaned all loco wheels prior to operation on this layout; I cleaned the masonite pads only once, a month after the initial application of Ox-Gard, by scraping and wire brushing the black streaks off the pad,

I would like to hear reports, both plus and minus, from others regarding use of these type of products.