What we've been working on

As a reminder, last summer I posted about a throttle that I was working on that would work with WiThrottle (supported by JMRI). Since then I teamed up with several others (Stuart, Balazs, and TCS) who were working on a more advanced throttle, along with a command station. I won't spend much time on the command station, so I'll just briefly mention that it's a combination DCC/LCC command station. The throttle communicates directly with the command station using LCC.

What I've been doing is adding support to their throttle so it can also communicate directly with WiThrottle, which is what JMRI's server uses (along with the WiThrottle and Engine Driver phone applications). All of this work so far has been on what we're referring to as the "advanced" throttle (not the final name). Here is a photo of a prototype of the advanced throttle:

What you're seeing is the advanced throttle connected to JMRI and controlling a Blackstone locomotive (I plan to create a video this weekend). And yes, I know, "Horn" is the wrong button label. I'm almost done writing the code that will show the correct name, based on what's set in JMRI.

So back to the basic throttle. This throttle will differ in a few important ways from it's larger brother:

• The screen will be a much smaller character display (8 wide by 2 lines high)
• It will have fewer keys. Basically, the bottom 5 rows from the advanced throttle.
• It will have a round knob on the top. We'll have two models with either a potentiometer (absolute speed) or encode (relative speed).
• Shorter. My current design is about 5-1/2" tall vs. 7-1/4" tall for the advanced throttle

Now for the questions. In my previous post I talked about using a toggle switch at the top or rocker a rocker switch along the side to set the direction. I've given up on the rocker switch because I haven't been able to find any that are small enough. Of course, we will have a direction button along the top row in the middle (the double-arrow on the advanced throttle).

While looking at components yesterday, I ran into these small thumb switches:

These are spring loaded, so you can push one way for "up" and the other for "down". You can also press in for a click. My thinking is to have one on each side, which you can see here in magenta on the right side:

That way you can use it either left or right handed, and you know that pushing up will be forward and pushing down will be reverse. We will show the direction on the screen. Here are some ideas I had:

• They can be configurable. So one could be speed up and down while the other could be direction
• I'm not sure yet what to do with click. It could be idle.

What do you think?

Base station communication

@ John,

Good to see an innovative throttle with native WiThrottle capability.  Watched the Facebook announcement from TCS this morning.  It is unclear to me how the throttle communicates with the command station.  Does the command station have WiFi built in?  How many throttles will it handle?  You mention direct using LCC, but how is it physically/electronically connected?

Also would you mind expounding a bit on the command station and its features?  IIUC NCE throttle bus can be plugged in?  And the 2-gang RJ45 socket is for LCC?

How might the command station function as a producer/consumer?

Thanks for sharing the throttle development process.

Regards,

RE: Base station communication

The throttle only uses WiFi, and it can communicate either with WiThrottle (what I've been working on) or LCC. And yes, the command station also has WiFi built in. So the communication between the throttle and the command station is all via WiFi. I don't know how many throttles it can handle--Stuart will need to answer that question.

Stuart will also need to talk more about the command station features. I do have one, and I've used it with an NCE throttle to control my Blackstone C-19. The TCS command station has connections for NCE and one for LCC. You can plug in any NCE throttle (I think) and the TCS command station will handle interacting with the throttle. It's actually the command station that controls what appears on the screen of the throttle.

As to the produce/consumer question, either Stuart or Balazs will need to answer that, as I haven't worked on that aspect. My focus has been the WiThrottle implementation, some UI work, and the 3D modeling of the case design.

One more thing. I realized that I was a little loose with my use of LCC. The command station does connect to an LCC bus so it can interact with accessories (I don't know the details). The communication between the throttle and the command station is actually using OpenLCB protocols. The difference between OpenLCB and LCC is that OpenLCB is still under development, and LCC represents standards from the OpenLCB group that have been adopted. So the traction protocol is still under development, or at least that's my understanding.

Throttle and Command Station Features

Dave,

I am happy to expand on what John has stated in order to answer some of your questions.

First off, both throttles are legitimate standalone products that will work with any existing DCC system that has JMRI or native WiThrottle protocol support.  This is thanks to the great work that John has done.  When working in WiThrottle or LCC mode, the physical connection is always Wi-Fi, no wires.

It is important to note that the LCC/OpenLCB protocols already provide support for Dead Rail trains, and the throttle does not require a DCC command station at all in order to control these.  There are currently no Dead Rail decoders that support LCC, but we expect in time that there will be.  When an LCC capable DCC command station is present, it is even possible to consist a Dead Rail locomotive with a DCC locomotive.

As you already know, the NMRA is developing a new modern layout control protocol, LCC.  The OpenLCB group functions like a "working group" for LCC, and is actively working to expand the LCC standard over time.  LCC can in time support many more features than pretty much all the existing DCC systems on the market.  While these two throttles will support all the Wi-Throttle features on any existing DCC system, a native LCC capable command station is required in order to realize these additional LCC features in the long run.

The TCS command station platform (there will likely be tiered product skews at different price points) directly supports up to 4 directly connected Wi-Fi devices (throttles, JMRI, etc...) without any external hardware required, and up to 63 connected NCE Bus throttles or accessories.  The user can optionally add an external Wi-Fi router and expend support for up to 14 connected Wi-Fi devices (throttles, JMRI, etc...).  A third "black box" can be added to the system which can expand the support for even more connected Wi-Fi devices (theoretically infinite, but the practical limit is probably around 30 to 50).  The TCS command station also supports the Marklin digital protocol in addition to DCC and RailCom.

The TCS command station has a dual RJ-45 jack to support the standard LCC CAN transport connection.  The LCC protocol is also used over the Wi-Fi.  A single RJ11/12 jack is provided for supporting NCE bus, up to 63 throttles or accessories.  XpressNET support is also planned through the same RJ11/12 jack, up to 31 throttles or accessories.  The NCE LCD based throttles have an improved user interface when used with the TCS command station, including some graphics (Bell, Whistle, etc...).

The DCC booster current rating for the system is still under evaluation.  There will likely be a least a 5A option and a lower entry level 2A option.  The booster current ratings will be under continuous operation, and likely be able to support much higher peak currents for inrush or motor startup conditions.  In other words, the TCS 5A (rated) booster will likely out perform many of the existing 5A (rated) boosters on the market that are typically spec'd for a "peak" current rating, while being just as safe in an overload condition.

The command station can function as a producer/consumer in many different ways.  We will support macros that will allow the sending of one event resulting in the cuing up of additional events, train control commands for automation, etc.  Traditional DCC accessory control is also handled with producer/consumer over LCC.  The command station is a consumer and the throttles and accessories are producers.  There is a well-known event ID space in the LCC standard for all of the existing DCC accessory addresses.

Another way we can use producer/consumer is to search for trains by name, and provide to the user a filtered and sorted list of train names for the user to select from.  For a train that is assigned a name, the underlying DCC address becomes arbitrary.  By default, the train name will be the DCC address when entered into the system for the first time, but can be later configured to any arbitrary string of characters.  All of this configuration is also available from JMRI.

Thanks,

Stuart

Communication

@ John,

That makes perfect sense, thank you.  I now understand how the command station uses OpenLCB/LCC protocol over WiFi to the throttle and via RJ45 to the LCC bus.  Using RR-Cirkits LCCBuffer-USB a computer running JMRI could then communicate with the command station as well as any LCC accesories.

Concerning your basic throttle, how long before you anticipate having it on the market?  Do you have a target price point?  Do I understand correctly that it will use WiThrottle protocol thru a router to JMRI?  Is LCC WiFi also planned?

Thanks again,

I caught the TCS live stream earlier today

They mentioned the case being 3D printed, will that continue with the production version?

( I'm thinking having options for case size and shape, like XL or southpaw versions)

This will definitely be a product I'm looking forward to, I run a NCE powercab currently, this seems like the logical evolution to it.

RE: Communication

@Dave,

We don't have a release date yet. My personal goal for the throttle is around the NMRA convention this summer. But I want to emphasize that it's just my goal, and the product development is a team effort. Release dates will be a team (or just TCS) decision. Same goes for the price point. I'm working to keep the part and manufacturing costs down for the basic throttle so it will be competitive.

Before I started working on this throttle this past summer, Stuart and Balazs already had the advanced throttle working with LCC/OpenLCB (some features are not complete yet). They've created a very powerful system to which I have been adding WiThrottle support.

At the moment, the throttle has to be in either WiThrottle or LCC mode. But there is a menu item to switch from one to the other, and it's a pretty fast switch over.

RE: Case Design

The prototype cases are all 3D printed by Shapeways. But the plan is to have the production cases injection molded, as that's far more cost effective. I've done a lot of injection molding (mostly for Ragg's...to Riches) on smaller parts (but also design for Bluepoint and Throttle Pockets), so I'm leading that effort. Having mold made isn't cheap, so we'll most likely will have just the two throttles.

There is time to provide input on the design, as we're still in the development phase. This is especially true for the basic throttle, as I just started on the current design a few days ago, and Stuart hasn't design the circuit board yet. We'll be using the same code, with some differences, for both throttles.

Configurable direction switches

Since you asked, what about one side being direction and the other braking? A little or a lot and maybe emergency when pushed in. The direction push could simply toggle momentum on and off for light loads or switching mode. 

Looks good from here! I am not running JMRI but wonder if some of the new wireless systems and dongles will support a throttle like yours (Digitrax, Ring, MRC, DCC++ with RPi?).

JMRI Connectivity

Dave,

JMRI can connect to the TCS command station directly over the Wi-Fi.  An LCC buffer is not required, but may also be used.  The protocol over Wi-Fi is LCC, really no different than over the CAN.  OpenLCB/LCC was designed to include intelligent packet routing and be physical transport layer agnostic from the very beginning.

Thanks,

Stuart

More about JMRI Connectivity

@ Stuart and John,

Since I am a visual learner I put together a graphic for my interpretation of the above statement and the LCC network, then added some additional components.  Do I understand the concept correctly?  Will this system function correctly?

 EDIT: Picture updated to include track and eliminate Digitrax throttle.

I'm already running the JMRI/RPi/LocoBuffer/LocoNet and am interested in adding the block detector with RailCom.  From J.D. at TCS the Command Station has the required RailCom cutout.  The other two nodes are for illustration purposes. 

I wonder if the TCS Command Station can be plugged into the NCE throttle bus, or just an NCE throttle into the CS?

Your comments will be appreciated.

Regards,

Lenz Support

I would like to encourage you to make sure that Lenz XpressNet is supported out of the gate.  I and I am sure many other Lenz users feel more then a bit abandoned by the lack of development by them in the past decade.  And in fact I am looking to replace my system.  The issue for me with Lenz is that if I sell it right now it has some financial value.  But the longer I wait the less value it will have.  And with the way that every DCC system is proprietary  I can’t migrate my current investment over.

So if you provide a system that allows me to pull my command station,  buy your command station and one advance throttle and still use all of my existing hardware (throttles and boosters) then I will jump on this as soon as it is up and running.  This will allow me to add additional throttles from TCS  (you smaller one looks interesting) and not have to take out a mortgage on my house to replace what I currently have.  And I am sure other Lenz uses would be in the same boat.

In my case it is not so much the Lenz wired throttles that concerns me as much as it is the boosters and the CVP radio throttles that I use with my Lenz system.  In case you are unaware CVP sells a radio base/receiver that connects to Lenz.

So while not as big a user base as NCE or Digitrax the Lenz users are I think more likely to switch as unlike NCE and Digitrax who are still actively supporting there users with updates the Lenz community has been most forgotten.  So I think a larger percentage of Lenz users will be interested in making the transition if you let them keep there boosters and throttles.

just me thought on the situation.

-Doug Meyer

(an unhappy Lenz orphan)

Throttle thoughtswith

Just a couple thoughts off the top of my head.

First off what ever you do please in the name of all that is good in the world provide a way for a lanyard to be attached to the bottom of the throttle.  I can not count how many times I have seen a throttle take a nose dive to the hard floor.  And almost as bad are the folks that set the throttle down on the layout damaging something.  You don’t need to have the lanyard but please figure out how to accommodate one.  I would suggest a screw location that a mini eye bolt can screw into.

the second point is color.  As you stated you are thinking black.  And that would be good.  I have Lenz throttles that are light color (and the look great when new) but with even very  limited use the get dirty.  So please go with your idea and use dark grey or black or some such

Please consider how to store the throttle someplace.  By this I mean a way to hang it up.  Be it in a holder or by providing a flat smooth surface for Velcro.

Speaking of smooth surfaces and dirt.  I would strongly suggest avoiding a textured surface.  The invariably collect dirt like crazy and are impossible to get clean (unless you are making this thing water proof ). And do we really need a high grip surface?  Your holding a throttle not a drill.

My other suggestion is to be careful with the width.  I have used a number of various thottles enough to be familiar with them.  Be it both Lenz thottles four of the various CVP thottles.  The big and little Digitrax throttle and two sizes of NCE throttles.  And I can live with most of them.  But a couple are just two wide.  The worst offender being the wide CVP throttle.  That is so wide that it is uncomfortable to use with two hands much less one.  I would suggest you look up the building code for how big a hand rail grab rail can be.  It list max with as well as over all circumference and what have you.  This may give you an idea of sizes.  Without having to reinvent the research that has already been done.  Otherwise I suggest keeping them narrow like the narrow CVP throttle.  As that is pretty much the most comfortable of the lot,  Not the best necessarily but the most ergonomically comfortable.

Remember you may change the electric guts of this throttle over the years but odds on you will be stuck with whatever shape you choose now for the foreseeable future.  So plan for comfort, usability durability and future updates.  

-Doug Meyer

RE: Lenz Support

Doug,

XpressNET support is planned and should be able to fit the need you describe.  We actually started with the NCE bus implementation because we as developers had the least amount of experience with it and saw the most amount of execution risk.  It turns out that we were correct about the execution risk.  While there is some good documentation out there about NCE Bus, there are a number of pitfalls and weird cab behaviors that are undocumented, and the documentation that does exist is not 100% accurate.

On the other hand, I myself have used Lenz as my primary DCC system for about 15 years, and chose the system because of the openness of the XpressNET protocol.  I have (in the past) already developed three different XpressNET home brew products (two XpressNET slaves and one XpressNET master) over the past 15 years.

The XpressNET software support will likely start development very soon, and I expect it to take much less time and effort than NCE Bus did.

BTW, Lenz does have a new advanced throttle on the market and a new wireless system coming that can be retrofitted to all their legacy handhelds.

http://www.digital-plus.de/digitalplus-handregler-lh101.php

Thanks,

Stuart

RE: Configurable direction switches

@Neil,

Those are great ideas for use of the thumb switches. Those switches are (on)/off/(on) switches, meaning that they're normally off, spring loaded, and therefore are either on or off. So that means we can't do the proportional braking (darn).

RE: Throttle thoughtswith

@Doug,

Yes, I'll make sure we support a lanyard. That's a feature I had in my previous prototype and forgot to add to this one.

For color and texture, the plan is to use black or dark gray. And it will have a light texture like you see on the Throttle Pockets. That light texture doesn't show fingerprints the way glossy does, but is light enough that it's not designed for grip, and therefore shouldn't have the issues you mentioned with heavier textures.

This is what it looks like in a Throttle Pocket, which should also provide a better idea of size. It's 2" wide, compared with 2-1/2 inches for the NCE PowerCAB. How wide is the narrow CVP throttle?

And the bottom is curved, so it has a much nicer feel in the hand. TCS very much wanted a narrow throttle that was curved for a nicer feel.

The shape is not final, but the curve and width are nearly identical to the advanced throttle, of which we've made about 5 (I think) that we, the team members, have been using. And we had the prototypes at the NMRA convention last summer so people could try them out. People seemed to like the size and shape.

RE: More about JMRI Connectivity

@Dave,

That's a nice diagram. I think it might help to show the DCC connection to the rails. I'm assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that this is coming from the TCS command station in your diagram. If that's true you'll need to remove the Digitrax throttles from the picture, I believe, as they're designed to work with a Digitrax command station, which I don't see in the diagram. It would be great if we could get the Digitrax throttles to work as well, but that's not something we're looking at right now. As Stuart mentioned, our plan is to finish NCE first and then Lenz. Digitrax is rather different because of their licensing requirements.

If you have an NCE bus around your layout, you can connect this to the TCS command station, but you will have to remove the NCE command station, as there can be only one command station (Stuart, please correct me if I missed something).

Digitrax Throttle

@ John,

After thinking about it for a minute I believe that you are correct, the Digitrax throttle does require a Digitrax command station. 

Wondering, since a Zephyr DCS50 in already on the layout, if it ran as a command station without being connected to the track, and if you opened a throttle in JMRI, would a throttle command pass thru JMRI to the TCS command station and control the locomotive?  Hmmmm....

I have updated the picture on the earlier post to include some track and remove the Digitrax throttle.

I am really liking the concept of your basic throttle for use by guest operators.

Regards,

Dave, Wondering, since a

Dave,

There is no plumbing in JMRI today for this scenario to work.  It doesn't mean it isn't possible, it just doesn't exist today.  The biggest challenge that the LCC community is having with LocoNET support is that it requires a license from Digitrax for use in the US market.  LocoNET to LCC gateways have already been demonstrated, but so far, nobody has been able to obtain a license from Digitrax to sell such a product.

My understanding is that JMRI was granted a license for LocoNET in perpetuity.  I'm not sure about all the details, but it seems to me that a JMRI solution might be legally possible without being at the mercy of Digitrax.

While I like the LocoNET concept, and Digitrax makes some great products, this legal licensing issue is one reason why I've personally never invested in Digitrax products.  I didn't want to get locked into an ecosystem entirely under the thumb of one company.

I understand that this statement is of little benefit to those who have invested in the Digitrax ecosystem and are now looking to possibly supplement it with other manufacture's products in the future.  What I can say is that if you are happy with your Digitrax products, I think that's wonderful.  This hobby is about enjoyment!

Thanks,

Stuart

Will this work with the new

Will this work with the new ESU Cab Control system?

Will this work with the new

Yes!

Digitrax Throttle Test

@ John and Stuart,

Thanks for the explanations and thanks for your patience with all my questions.

I did some testing with JMRI connected to both Digitrax and SprogII by setting up a couple of Config Profiles to confirm what Stuart said.  JMRI will exchange throttle commands (and track power commands) with only one command station.  The good news is that with the Sprog as the CS the switch commands on LocoNet worked perfectly between JMRI and the layout.  Just not the Dx throttles.

Thanks again,

Great, as I just purchased

Great, as I just purchased one!

The Lefty connundrum

SO, The look of it works, and the buttons on the face are fine,(Kudos for keeping a large wheel rheostat on the front--makes one-handing the controller easier when you have an uncoupling tool or whatever in the other hand.

That being said, might I recommend that you try putting that throttle in your left hand and seeing how the functionality is? The thumb buttons on the side may not be as helpful for someone like me (a lefty).  With other controllers i have used, buttons like that that were located on the top of the controller instead of on the side were more useful--I was able to work the buttons on the top using my index finger. I"m a little unwieldy, and people sometimes mistake that for being clumsy.  Designing for the masses is best, and as a lefty, I understand that the world is made for you righties...But it's something to consider nonetheless.