duckdogger

Older Proto 2000 E-Units Coming Out of The Closet (in a manner of speaking)

These processes have a broad application for whatever older locomotives you might choose to upgrade.

The little gems have been passing time in their unopened boxes in my closet since mid-2014. The original owner had been given an ultimatum by his girlfriend to the effect he had better start spending more time with her, or else. His epic journey to becoming a Renaissance Man began by putting some locomotives up for adoption at An Affair With Trains in Phoenix. I adopted three but unfortunately there have been too many other tasks sucking my discretionary time like a vampire with a drinking problem.

More follows below.

 

 

Reply 1
duckdogger

The Rest of the Story

But now I decree I am master of my domain – with my wife’s permission, and the Protos will come to life. The end result will be a Kato motored Proto E with upgraded trucks, Tsunami 2 sound, close coupled sugar cubes, added details, and LED lights. First up is an AB pair of UP Es to be followed by an SP-Black Widow  A-unit. (Same adoption scenario.)

First Things First

Gently flex the body at the fuel tank to clear the pins molded into the fuel tank side and lift. Tilt the rear up to allow the coupler to clear through the pilot opening. I find it easier than trying to remove the coupler and invariably dropping the screw on the floor never to be seen again.

Remove the upper frame weight by removing the attachment screws. Put it in the recycling bin as it is not needed. Remove and trash the factory wiring and control boards.

Truck Tune Up

If you did not remove the track feed wires from the trucks, do it now. Remove the trucks from the frame by gently massaging (prying is another word which comes to mind) the worm gear cover from the truck’s frame to expose the worm gear. Many of these units use a multi-piece spine drive shaft connecting the worm gear to the flywheels. These will slip free and trucks will drop through the frame.

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With the truck sitting on your work surface, and from the top, gently flex the side frames away from the axles and male guides and lift up. The axle tips nest inside the bearing caps so flex until they are clear. Inside is a molded piece with the brake detail and it secures with molded pins which nest into the truck’s metal frame. Lastly, the axles are retained in the truck by two snap-fit clips on the bottom of the truck. They pry loose with a small flat bladed screwdriver applied from the end.

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Disassembling and cleaning the trucks reveals the expected split axle gears all too common with ‘90s vintage Proto locomotives. Someone in the design and production chain likely decided Delrin axle gears were not a necessary expense. Oops. Some have suggested the Athearn replacement geared axles can be used for repair and maybe some can.

My stash of Athearn geared axles have 12 teeth while the Protos yearn for 11. I tried the Athearn gears, once, and the mismatch bound the trucks to the point the ESU decoder’s motor control circuitry fried. So, in go Walthers 920-584494 replacement geared wheel assemblies. While the trucks are somewhat smoother rolling, there is are still some resistance.

Partially re-assembling the truck reveals two concerns. The molded brake shoes fit very close to the wheel flanges and it doesn't take much for them to rub against the wheels and add drag. I used sprue clippers to remove the brake shoe details eliminating any possibility of interference. (And the brake shoes are hard to see anyway.) In the photo, the top piece has brake shoe detail and bottom shows after trimming.

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Another source of friction can be the inside spacing of the truck skeleton sides. This is where the bronze axle bearings rest and if too wide, the bearing will not position properly. If the bearing rests inside the frame, it can cause binding by allowing the axle to be lower on one side resulting in a slight bind in to the gears and an out of square truck. I used my needle nose pliers to gently squeeze the metal sides to narrow the opening allowing the bearing to position properly.

New Motor Coming Up

I am using a Kato motor for this project which incorporates the older-style motor mounts which fit, with a little modification, into the Proto fuel tank mounting holes. Before installing the motor, I trimmed the typical Kato metal motor connections and added 30-guage wire leads.

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The motor comes with 2 mounting screws but most of us have containers of extra screws in a variety of sizes so finding 2 more fasteners was no challenge. (Notice I left the Kato light board in place to stabilize the mount while installing.)

The frame mounting location required modification to gain clearance and was accomplished with a battery powered hand drill and a rotary metal cutting tip. After the grinding, I painted the exposed bare metal with basic rattle-can black.

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The Kato motors have, as well as most later Athearn RTR and Genesis versions, hex drive shaft connections machined into the flywheel. I used the PPW-Aline #12032 - Coupling Kit –

Universal Hex Drive. These are length adjustable and incorporate a molded ball on one end and a separate hex connection which is slipped into place after the correct length is determined.

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Some of my assorted older Proto worm gears have a provision for mating with a molded ball but did not provide the needed swing clearance for going through turnouts and corners. I substituted the readily available worm gear assemblies from Athearn.

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For mounting the Tsunami 2 decoder, I created a mounting pad from styrene which will attach to the top of the motor cradle in the same manner as the Kato light board. It adds stability and rigidity to the decoder mount. I soldered the track feeds to the decoder and used spring clips between the decoder and motor wires to confirm the correct motor connection polarity. This is a good time to proceeded with a break in run in both directions.

IMG_1179.jpg 

Adding Details

Most of what I have done on this project follows UP practices but there are a few deviations such as my choice of horn and cab shades. I also omitted the ugly MU connection applied to the engineer’s side of the nose as it reminded me of a big zit.

I painted the cab interior an EMD-ish shade of light green I ould have used a hint of white to lighten a bit but it works  I added light grey dots for the gauges. I also repainted the engineer and fireman as their factory blue duds made them look like prison guards. I added an India ink wash to mute the clothing colors and add shadow to the creases. I painted the shell’s cab side walls and roof in a medium grey as it is not readily seen. Okay, the truth is I was mixing the cab green from black and green paint in a too small container and kept running out. I did not want to mix another batch so I made a management decision.

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Let There Be Lights

For the head light, I cemented a 1.8mm warm white LED into the upper light position of the Walthers nose light piece. I added number board illumination using 0603 SMD LEDs mounted to the Walthers side lens assemblies. I drilled a hole in the number board piece and elongated it with a file to allow insertion of the LED.

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I routed the wires through the same front opening where the headlight wires are routed from the factory. I used Faller Expert to cement the 0603 SMD LEDs into position.

As with some UP Es, my A-unit does not have the nose door Gyra light so I used a 2mm yellow LED for the roof top beacon cemented directly to the shell from the inside.  It works and looks good. These LEDs have long leads which I trimmed to about .250 inch and bent at 90 degrees (oriented to the rear of the cab).

I cut/filed a notch in the top of the rear wall as a pass through for the beacon wires.  I used acrylic silicone to secure the light into the mounting location after soldering the wires leads. I used several coats of black paint to insulate the leads and control light bleed.

I added the iconic UP snow shields from Utah Pacific to the top of the winterization hatches. They are nicely molded in brass but out of the package, the mounting legs were a mess. My guess is normal manufacturing handling, packaging, and shipping took its toll. It is difficult to find a closeup photo of the original installation. At some point, maybe the mid-90s rebuilding, the front winterization hatch was shortened to make room for cab air conditioning and there are photos of that. Close, but no cigar.

I made some presumptions and used a spare winterization hatch to trial fit and tweak the legs in position before gluing to the shell with a drop of CA.

ield%202.jpg   ield%201.jpg 

I also relocated the air horn to a strap (Evergreen styrene) mounted over the winterization hatch’s screen section per photos. The grey I used was close enough as the roofs in these areas became quite sooty from the exhaust and my units are not corporate train units. Lastly, engineer side grab irons are installed with CA. Make sure to trim the grab iron legs flush with the inside of the shell so they do not interfere with the body install or final fit.  The MU hoses are on deck. 

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Fitting the Body

Some older Proto E A-units, including these, have a minor flaw which prohibits the body from sitting level on the frame (from a front to rear perspective). It causes the nose to angle up ever so slightly while the rear is ever so slightly low. I ran into this 5 or so years ago when creating my fantasy CSX corporate Es.

The fix is very simple: remove the fuel tank rear pins and install a piece of styrene angle on the rear wall of the shell. This allows the shell to rest on the frame level. The body will still engage the front pins and secure it to the frame.

Sound Considerations

I considered my previous E-unit speaker configurations (the Coke bottle cap exercise) and my close coupled sugar cube hood installations and decided to see how three sugar cubes would perform after firing one up on the test track. And as it is merely a different value into CV 123, I might make these little guys 645 non-turbos from the mid-90s rebuild. Just for grins, of course.

I position the body next to the frame and visualize how the speakers will fit and confirm there is adequate clearance. Nothing is quite as frustrating as doing all the work and then the body won’t fit. To be clear of the worm gear retainer, it is necessary to remove the recessed (exterior perspective) fan housing beneath the winterization hatch grill at the rear of the shell. It ain’t pretty but it can’t be seen.

I made a mounting pad from styrene and secured the speakers with acrylic silicone (clamping them in position while the silicone cures). The wiring is simple enough and has been covered in previous blogs.

I secured the speaker subassembly to the rear roof with acrylic silicone and the sound firing down towards the track.

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I am not sure about the sound yet after programming and tuning with the equalizer. I may experiment with the RailMasters Hobbies 28mm round speakers, and also do a trial with the 16mm diameter speakers and wood enclosures from TVW Miniatures. I will post an update as this exercise progresses.

Reply 2
duckdogger

Video Run By

 

Reply 2
JWhite

Thanks for posting this.  I

Thanks for posting this.  I have several older proto IC E units to rework.

Jeff White                                                                                                                                                            Alma, IL

Reply 0
duckdogger

@Jeff

You are welcome and let me know if you have questions. Also, Chris Palomarez and I discuss this topic on the October and soon to be uploaded November MRH Podcasts 

Reply 0
nsfantodd

UP AB DDE units

Is only the A unit powered in your video? I guessing you cant mu 2 powered Tsunami 2 units with the DDE enabled? You've done Loksound and Tsunami 2 installs. On paper I like the Tsunami 2, but I don't have a layout right now to be able to test. The only sound engine I have now is Tsunami 1, so I really appreciate your post and videos! I'm interested in your thoughts on Loksound Full Throttle vs Tsunami 2 DDE. I model current day and will run all powered, sound equipped diesels and need to be able to mu them. Thanks, Todd
Reply 0
Moe line

Excellent Tutorial

I definitely appreciate this post. Thank you. I have maybe 5 of the older Proto-1000 Alco switcher units that were all purchased used and have been stored for years, so they will need some of these upgrades you have outlined here in great detail. Now if only the time and money were available... Thanks again, Jim 

Reply 0
duckdogger

DDE

Both units are Tsunami 2 and I tweaked the settings of the B-unit a bit to enhance its running  compatibility with the A-unit  when consisted. 

Reply 0
duckdogger

@Todd

In my opinion, the operational functionality of ESU FT and the Tsunami 2 Straight to 8 are comparable. Likewise I see the DDE and ESU BEMF as a close race but with an edge to the Tsunami 2. The significant difference between the two is the ability to tune the sound to speaker capabilities afforded by the Tsunami graphic equalizer. 

Reply 0
nsfantodd

Thank you Duckdogger

Thank you for your replies! Ill have to buy a couple of Tsunami 2's and test them out. I appreciate your experiences, as I only have short section of track to test with. It seems like the ts2's would throttle up and down out of sync as they pulled against each other and the train. That's my concern. Your units seem to run well together. Maybe it's more critical that they closely speed matched? Thanks, Todd
Reply 0
duckdogger

@Todd

I only consist like-motored units of the same vintage. For example, all Athearn RTR or Genesis, or Atlas, or Proto. I have four 2-unit and two 3-unit consists using the T2 and they play together well. I establish the DDE parameters for the lead and tune the consist members to it. As I do this, they are consisted but not coupled together. Another approach is is to use speed tables. 

My railroad is 50% flat with only 2% on the grades. This also helps. 

Reply 0
arbe

Hey!

Quote:

"The molded brake shoes fit very close to the wheel flanges and it doesn't take much for them to rub against the wheels and add drag..."                                                                   

Sounds like a automatic wheel cleaning device!  

Bob Bochenek   uare_100.jpg 

Chicago Yellowstone and Pacific Railroad     

Reply 0
duckdogger

@arbe

They fit tight enough to be wheel grinders.

Reply 0
Nelsonb111563

What did you settle on?

What speaker/s did you decide on Duck?  Sound very full and rich with no "tinnyness" to it at all!  Very good bass also!  

Nelson Beaudry,  Principle/CEO

Kennebec, Penobscot and Northern RR Co.

Reply 0
nsfantodd

@duck

Thank you for the additional info, very helpful. I've got a Loksound, one of the new version Tsunami 2's and a couple of speaker types on the way. So I'll be testing soon! Thanks again, Todd
Reply 0
duckdogger

@Mr Beaudry

Sorry for the delay in responding to your question. The speakers are 3 sugar cubes per shell - 13 x 18 x 13 (from Litchfield). I toyed with using 4 for a true series parallel arrangement but the difference in all sound aspects was insignificant. Of course they were tuned via the graphic equalizer using guidleines given me by The Professor a couple years ago.

Reply 0
duckdogger

Changes

When working on the Proto Black Widow E9 on my latest blog, I went back to my practice of mounting a speaker behind the cab and another just behind the rear flywheel. The original mounting of three sugar cubes in this unit under the steam generator area obviously concentrated the sound there. Even though the volume and quality after tuning via the equalizer was very good, it was unnatural coming solely from that area.

The A unit has been fitted with two RailMasters Hobbies DHB27 speakers in enclosures from Litchfield station (part number SPENC-27H16R) When two moresets are received from Litchfield, I will change out the B-unit. The sugar cubes will be retasked to my CF7s.

Reply 0
TVLarsen

Why the motor change?

Got a couple of the first generation Proto2000 E's in Santa Fe and haven't been running them for way too long - like more than 10 years - but they are surfacing in the near future for a tune up, sound decoder install and some light weathering.

Anticipating the split gear curse I've bought the Walthers Proto replacement wheel set just in case...

Why did you decide to change the motors in these? They ran very nice in a DC environment and I was planning to keep the drive train.

Tom Larsen

Holte, Denmark

Reply 0
duckdogger

@Tom

Years ago, I was cautioned by a knowlegeable DCC expert to excercise caution when converting the Life Like era Proto Es and PAs to DCC due to the motors' current draw. That being said, I still have 3 older P2K E-units with original drive train and Tsunami 1000 decoders. No issues with too much power consumption but they are not the smoothest runners.

You made a wise move in acquiring the Wathers replacement wheelsets with new gears. Inspect each axle for the telltale split seam but in my experience, all were not defective. Unfortunately at present the replacement sets are sold out. Other suppliers make a credible version but the price point is considerably higher..

Technology is always moving forward and now we have decoders from ESU and Soundtraxx with incredible motor control capabilities. So when I began updating my decoders, I am 100% DCC sound, I decided to change out the old school motors. Chris Palomarez and I have discussed this subject on seveal podcasts. He also has a YouTube video or two on the process.

The Kato motors are known smooth runners and so it was an easy decision to convert the older P2K Es I had stored in my closet. And based on their performance after the transplant, worth the cost of the Kato motor and the newer decoder.

Reply 0
TVLarsen

P2K motors

The current problem was to the best of my knowledge only with the motors used in the frist generation PA's. When cutting the power to the motor it would generate a current spike that could kill most decoders, but the old Lenz LE080XS decoders can survive this. Not a problem with the E's, so I'll give it a try using the original motors at first.

Where do you get the Kato motors and is there any speciat model/number to look for? I plan on installing sound in my PA's later on and then a motor change will be needed.

Tom Larsen

Holte, Denmark

 

Reply 0
duckdogger

@Tom

Your version of the P2K motors sounds vaguely familiar but it was over 7 yeas ago. Anyway, my source is HO Diesel Supply. On eBay he is seller SD40_demo_434 and he lists the Kato motor on his auctions as KATO PARTS MOTOR-FLYWHEELS-OLD STYLE MOUNTS-EMD SD CIRCUIT BOARD NEW.

Key for me is the 4 pin cradle and the hex drive flywheels. he has som listed at present.

Reply 0
TVLarsen

@ duckdogger

Thank you for the info as well as the pictures and the thorough description.

I'll start looking for the motors

Reply 0
railandsail
Very interesting material in this subject thread. I need to come back and reread it several times.
Reply 1
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