Compression

Ryan:

I'd venture that what you're "doing wrong" is getting hung up on how to scale down the Sanborn maps.

Your layout space should be more than adequate for modeling large (looking) cities without resorting to multiple decks.  I've seen plenty of layouts with much less footprint still pulling off a big city feel.  You're going to need to pick and choose which elements of the prototypes are the most important and see how they can be arranged to fit your space.  Make a list and prioritize the must-have features, the second tier, and so on. You could keep one of the model cities relatively large to incorporate more of the desired pieces, while shrinking the others to a greater degree.  Once you start to add the model structures the city look will be established.  I for one think a city can be pulled off in less space than a rural scene since there are so many different sightlines and things blocking your view - you can't take it all in at one glance so it's naturally going to feel bigger than it is.  If you have some buildings to mock up they can be a big help here.

Something that would help is knowing what prototypes you're looking at.  A layout set in the southern California megalopolos may need a different approach than one set in northern New Jersey, and so on.

One example of a smaller-space city I can think of is the Boston-themed Union Freight shelf layout series in MR a number of years ago, but there are others.  Haul out the magazine stockpile, find city modeling that appeals to you and fits your vision for the layout somewhat, and then see how big the areas actually are on the trackplans.

The key to selective compression

Selective compression means simply "leave out what's not important" (that's the selective part) and then make smaller what's left (that's the compression part).

You need to study your town enough that you learn what the signature elements are. A signature element will cause instant recognition by those who know the town - upon looking at your model of the town, they will remark, "Oh, that's Midvale!" or whatever the town name is.

Once you know the signature elements, you just leave out a lot of the rest.

Next, you look at each signature element and determine how you can shrink it yet still keep the character intact. On structures, this generally means fewer windows or panels, and reducing the overall dimensions by a percentage of 10 - 50%.

Doing this compression takes some finess and you may need to do some cardboard mockups to make sure the overall character has not been compromised too much.

One example is my North Umpqua river bridge. The prototype has three spans and the total length of the three spans plus ballasted deck approach spans would be over 6 feet.

Prototype North Umpqua Bridge

I dropped one span completely without hesitation because the surrounding trees make it difficult to see all three spans when viewing the bridge at the location.

Then I set about shortening the remaining bridge by significantly shortening the approach ballasted trestle spans, and I shrunk the truss bridge span in all dimensions by about 20%.

Model North Umpqua Bridge

Once I was all done, I had a bridge that instantly is recognizable by those who know the line, but now takes just over 3 feet instead of over 6 feet.

Re: Compression

 Rob,

Thanks for your thoughts.  Here is the first city that I have done.  There were only a few industries that were on the rails.  They are all included in the current version.  For reference in reality, this is about 1 mile of track.

Ryan

First City

In looking at your track diagram it seems like that whole area could be compressed a lot without losing the essential character of the industries or the track arrangement.  When you wrote "city" I was assuming something big, dense and urban, but I overlooked some key information in an earlier thread, since the town in question looks smaller (Hartland, WI).  I went looking for that so I have a better idea of your prototype.  https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/lake-country-railroad-phase-i-12186540

My layout  is designed around a train length of about 15-16 actual feet (roughly two diesels, 20 50' cars and a caboose in HO).  I designed the towns accordingly to maximize the run in between, so a typical town/siding locale is about the length of the "governing" train plus the turnouts at either end of the siding, and enough room for clearance on either end of the siding (maybe plus a little, never less).  Establishing the train length early in the design process allowed me to estimate closely how much space each town would consume, and how much separation I would need so at least a full train length existed between them so the scenes didn't run together.  The train length was to a large extent dictated by what the room could handle in terms of benchwork.  So...

Given the scenicked layout dimensions you provided (19X35), and the around-the-perimeter restriction on the benchwork, you get a roughly 80' mainline from end-to-end if the layout is shaped like a U (makes the math easy anyway).  Divide that by 5 (3 towns, plus the two stretches of open space of a train length between the first and second town, plus between the second and last), gives you an average of 16' per town and per stretch of open space.  The 16' figure makes no allowance for such things as curves to enter staging access points, but can be a general guide.  See if you can get the signature elements of each town into an appriximately 16' space.  If you go over on one, you can go under on the next.  remember it's just a general guide to extimate what will fit.  Mock up as appropriate using actual track components and equipment so you can get an idea of how a town will look.

Just what I needed!

Rob,

Thanks for your advice, it was just what I needed.  In all my planning, I never thought to come up with the typical train length.  That will help for sidings and staging area.  I like your 16' number and think that will be a nice size for my railroad as well.  I have to work for a couple of hours tonight, but I will compress the plan I have tonight when I am free and post it.

Thanks again!

Ryan

16' may be a bit long ...

Ryan:

Depending on what you're trying to model, 16' may be a bit long.

If we assume one loco on the front and a caboose on the back, then a 16' train is:

30 forty foot cars in HO

23 fifty foot cars in HO

As far as model trains go, anything over 15 feet (20 fifty foot cars) is long enough the dynamics start to change and may need helpers, extra-free rolling trucks, and so on. In the spirit of keep-it-simple, shorter trains may be advised unless you have experience routinely running trains this long and you understand the headaches you can start getting.

I'm not saying don't do it - but I am saying some experience operating trains this long is advised if you expect to plan a railroad where the typical train length will be in this range.

When I built my Siskiyou Line, I already had operating experience, so I knew what I was signing up for when I made my standard HO train length 18 feet. When we run trains this long, we need helpers and it's a blast. However, I wouldn't want to try trains this long using helpers without DCC.

DCC makes things SO MUCH simpler when you get longer trains and you want reliable operation on an operations-oriented layout.

If you're not sure about

If you're not sure about train lengths and siding location/configuration, build the towns on plywood but don't do any permanent scenery or trackwork - just kind of tack down the track and set some buildings in place.  Then run trains for a while to see how it works.

If after several months everything is peachy go ahead and make the track permanent. If not, rearrange it and try again.  The drawback is that if your rarin' to get started on scenery, it does tend to get in the way.  But building gorgeous scenery is no fun if you find the track design is unworkable and scenery needs to be torn out to make room for a new track configuration.

FWIW

Charlie

Town size again...

Just to clarify, the rough 16' town size i threw out there isn't a train length, just an average size for each location and the spacing between.  Once you consider turnouts, clearance points and such you're down to a train of maybe 12' - 13', possibly less once you get everything arranged into the space.  Note that my layout's 15'-16' trains require towns of 20' or more including turnouts at either end of the sidings and such.

Figuring an average town size is a rough planning tool only for picturing what MIGHT fit.  Joe makes a good point that you may not really want trains of 20 cars or more.  You're certainly under no obligation to cram in the biggest town that will fit in each allotted location.

Another consideration that may be obvious,

is that a city doesn't need to take up a lot of space on the layout.  You are really only interested in modeling what you could see from the train if you were in the cab.  This, of course, requires a high benchwork that you don't get the "helicopter" view when standing to next to the layout.  You might suggest just the edge of the city with tall building trackside that are close to full depth.  You might selectively compress the depth to 3/4 thck for the foreground buildings.  Use narrower tall buildings behind the foreground buildings and building flats against a a photographis gack drop to suggest just the edge of a large city.  Just don't forget to blend a more open idustrial section into suburbs as you leave the city, so you don't get an abrupt change from city to country.

There is another thread here on Eric Brooman's Utah Belt.  A big city can be modeled similar to Eric's mountains by substituting sky scrapers for mountains.

North Umpqua Bridge

  I recognize that bridge and you did a good job of modeling it. I was fishing underneath that bridge and down stream from it looking for steelhead. You did forget to model the boat inlet just up stream and on the south side. However leaving out the fish is correct.