Pelsea

So I made this commitment to design a plug and play powered turntable and write a tutorial on it , something that can be built with (mostly) off the shelf parts, including an Arduino. (This isn't about the visible bits of the turntable, just the mechanism that turns it.) Any wiring will be restricted to standard things like switches and pushbuttons, with no circuit building required. The recent post by AnyRail shows one possible approach using a popular stepper motor with internal gearing. I've ordered some of these, and should be able to start testing by the middle of the week. However:

While I understand what a turntable is supposed to do, there are many options for how to control it:

  • A simple clockwise/counter-clockwise switch with eyeball alignment
  • One button per track-- push the button and the turntable rotates to that track.
  • Two buttons per track-- one points the front of the table at the track, the other points the rear of the table at the track.
  • Two buttons per lead track and one button for each stall track-- locos will always back into stalls.
  • One button per track, and a reverse switch-- the switch determines which end of the table will move to the target.
  • A keypad.
  • Rotary switch. (Practical limit is 12 positions.)

Keeping in mind that the cost of the Arduino depends on how many buttons you have, what is your preferred control method? 

A second issue relates to the installation of the turntable. With a stepper motor system, each track is identified by a step number in relation to the lead. If the stepper has 4096 steps, the stall across from the lead is step 2048. How should these numbers be assigned to the tracks in a particular installation?

  • They can be written into the sketch-- which essentially means the tracks have to be aligned to the turntable slots (which seems to be the case with many commercial tables.)
  • If the computer programming the Arduino is close by the layout, the numbers in the sketch can be rewritten if the tracks don't quite line up.
  • If there will be any moving or addition of tracks, or there is no convenient access to the computer, it may be necessary to make the spots programmable, perhaps by a long press on the target button or by pressing two buttons at once.

The final issue is related to how a stepper actually works. We turn the motor by issuing a series of pulses. Count the pulses, and we can go accurately to a desired spot. However, that depends on knowing where we start. Unfortunately, the zero point is forgotten when the power goes off. How should we tell the system the table is at zero?

  • The most common approach is to use a switch or sensor to mark the spot and look for it on power up-- that is the purpose of the song and dance your inkjet printer goes through every morning. It's harder with a continuously rotating system, but I included this feature in my Control the World with Arduino tutorial. However, that violates the no circuit building dictum. (It's also a little disconcerting to see the table start spinning by itself.)
  • The system can just assume zero is the start up point. But what if the table was pointing elsewhere when it was shut down?
  • The Arduino can remember where it was when power went off. This adds to the complexity of the code, but I'll be writing that. But what if the table gets moved by hand? Power on or off, this will mess it up.
  • So there pretty much needs to be a reset button, or a special function for the zero button. This of course opens the system to mischief, because if it's pressed at an inappropriate time, everything gets screwed up. Also, if the table is difficult to turn by hand (and you will need to turn the power off to turn it), a hand drive system is pretty much required.

So, what are your thoughts? Preferred control system, approach to installation, zero method, number of tracks to manage, or any other information and ideas will be appreciated.

pqe

ps. I will also discuss the design as it develops here so I can continue to get feedback throughout the process.

Reply 0
towazy

@pqe

Without having much experience with turntable operation on a model railroad,I can only offer what I would like to have it do when the time comes to add one to my layout. Easily programable and easy to trouble shoot/repair. As I am barely computer literate,I know how to run the program's I need and use for business,but terrible at anything else,something used friendly is a must! 

 I would like to be able push a button,or switch,and have the turntable go to the requested track,and align itself. As our eyesight deteriorates with age,using the eyeball method as I have in the past becomes more cumbersome. Having the table rotate the required number of revolutions,or fraction thereof,would be a nice perk,but not required. Pushing a button a couple of times to get the needed position is ok with me,but being more precise is an added benefit. 

  As for how you get there,what's in the black box that makes it go round and round and stop exactly where it needs to,that's beyond my pay grade! For me,user friendly,easy install and to trouble shoot,plug and play operation is paramount. 

 

          Tom

 

Reply 0
CNscale

Preference for the rotary switch

My turntable is currently manual, but if I were going to build one with a stepper and a microcontroller (on my list of "round-2-it" projects) I would control it with a rotary switch (my roundhouse has only 8 stalls).

For programming the step number for each stall, I would add a few extra switches (hidden somewhere, not on the control panel). 1. A toggle to switch the microcontroller from normal operation to programming mode. 2. A momentary double-throw toggle to move the table forward and backward. 3. A push button to tell the controller when the motor is lined up for the stall that is selected on the control panel rotary switch.

With the rotary switch there should be no need for zeroing - when powered up the controller can assume it's lined up at the stall selected by the rotary. If somebody moves the table manually while it's powered off, then the controller will need to be reprogrammed.

This is all just theory, so feel free to embarass me if I've missed something obvious.

I'm just posting this to provide input, not trying to sway your design. My plan was always to roll my own anyway, but I'm still interested in watching your project come together and picking up some pointers along the way. Hopefully others will chime in with their preferences. 

[EDIT] - just thought of something: I have only 8 stalls, but to be able to turn a locomotive around, I'd need a 16-position rotary switch ....

 


Chris
Reply 0
Marc

Your wish exist

Don't know if they are still in businnes but NYRS offer a complete control for turntable which is state of the art.

This system was reviewed in MRH a few years ago but don't know in which issue.

Some of us, may be can find the articles.

They offer the soft and hardware which make all your wishes a very easy task to do.

Of course the price is there but the results are on the level.

 

On the run whith my Maclau River RR in Nscale

Reply 0
J. Kluth

The no building requirement really restricts your options

The logical way to determine position would be with an absolute position encoder, which if you build it can be pretty cheap for 12 bit resolution, but just buying a ready made one run $50-200.

Here are some options from Mouser if you're interested.

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ams/AS5600-ASOT/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvhQj7WZhFIACpL9oTQ3HAxNjqXH1F5nKObiTda5GUQ9A%3d%3d

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Broadcom-Avago/AEAT-6012-A06/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvy8cVzszrmR0k5e2rDCYnPkys0clxPFhA%3d

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/CUI/AMT203-V/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvy8cVzszrmR8e0mUKZ7grDC5xA9HRCSH%252bTSx3Eb6T8sg%3d%3d

 

 

Always looking to learn,

Jay K.

Reply 0
Constructor

Existing Product

You might consider reviewing the descriptions and videos of turntable offerings at http://www.studiozphoto.com/millhouse.html . They also manufacture transfer tables. Since they are unable to produce turntable pits with walls small enough for smaller than O scale, their mechanism can be fitted into pit-walls of your own fabrication for smaller dimensioned turntables along with the addition of your own fabricated bridge. Their turntables have more features than what you have described, above. I imagine that their purchase price will be close to the costs of what you have described once you get yours to work....
Reply 0
Mark67

This sounds like an

This sounds like an interesting project. I am open to any of the switch solutions.

The best would be if it can be controlled via Arduino and the DCC system.

Duct tape turns a NO into a Hm-hm.

Reply 0
Mark Pruitt Pruitt

One thought

Pelsea,

Under the list of control options, you said:

"Two buttons per lead track and one button for each stall track-- locos will always back into stalls."

This is exactly opposite of general prototype practice, at least as it applied to steam locomotives. They were almost always pulled nose first into the roundhouse, maximizing space for working on the running gear.

I would think you would at least consider the other option:

"Two buttons per lead track and one button for each stall track-- locos will always pull nose-first into stalls."

Granted, tender butts are not as eye-catching as loco noses, so most modelers may want to employ a bit of license and back into the stalls anyway.

Reply 0
dark2star

Yet another control method...

Hi Pelsea,

in your starting post you have a list of possible control options, I wish to add one

- A simple clockwise/counter-clockwise switch (or two buttons) with automatic alignment

Basically, each press of a button advances the turntable one stall / position. Press the CW switch 3 times to go from stall 2 to stall 5.

Holding the button will continue the movement and the turntable will align with the next known position after releasing the button.

There may (or may not) be an extra button for the lead track.

As for programming, an extra button is needed, press it, use the CW/CCW switch for manual alignment and release the PROG button (upon release, the current position will be updated).

While not as nice as a keypad, I guess this method combines the ease of automatic alignment with very few buttons.

Would that be acceptable?

Have fun!

Reply 0
Jim at BSME

Other control methods

I think DCC control is beyond the scope of this project thread, of course that is up to Peter, but if you want to look at a DCC controlled turntable check out this build thread on rmweb: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/78578-dcc-controlled-peco-turntable-project-using-a-arduino-uno/

- Jim B.
Baltimore Society of Model Engineers, Estd. 1932
O & HO Scale model railroading
Check out BSME on: FacebookInstagram
Reply 0
Jim at BSME

Head in vs tender in

Quote:

"Two buttons per lead track and one button for each stall track-- locos will always pull nose-first into stalls."

Granted, tender butts are not as eye-catching as loco noses, so most modelers may want to employ a bit of license and back into the stalls anyway.

I would think either could be easily accomplished by having a button that swings the bridge 180 degrees. That way once you are aligned for a track by hitting the track selector button you hit the 180 swing button so you have less total buttons.

The only time steam locomotives are all sitting in the round house with the head end towards the turntable is for publicity photographs, otherwise they would be in with their smoke stack below the chimney in the roundhouse.

- Jim B.
Baltimore Society of Model Engineers, Estd. 1932
O & HO Scale model railroading
Check out BSME on: FacebookInstagram
Reply 0
Jim at BSME

re: Existing product - features

@Constructor, can you point out the features that you are referring too?

All I can find is this for the indexing system, as that is the only thing relevant to this discussion, this thread is only about the control of the turntable, not the turntable itself. 

Quote:

3.) Best auto indexing system with over 8,000 positional points to program your whisker tracks

Also I think this control system will be an order of magnitude cheaper than $365 for the indexer plus $325 for the drive motor, belt and gear.

- Jim B.
Baltimore Society of Model Engineers, Estd. 1932
O & HO Scale model railroading
Check out BSME on: FacebookInstagram
Reply 0
Montanan

Mone isn't very fancy.

I was given this scratch built turntable from a good friend when he decided to build an addition to enlarge his layout. Built out of brass and powered by an old motor from a player piano. It is probably somewhere around 50 years old.

ns%20020.JPG 

I guess I could try to build a more modern system for it, but with the way old time modelers could invent is something I couldn't remove.

Logan Valley RR  G0174(2).jpg 

 

Reply 0
dreesthomas

keeping it simple

I think if I were designing a turntable controller I'd start with two buttons: CW and CCW.

Turntable stopped: long press (e.g., 1/2 sec) on either button starts rotation in that direction

                              short (momentary) press on either button "bumps" turntable one step in that direction

Turntable rotating: any press on either button stops rotation

David

 

David Rees-Thomas
Reply 0
Pelsea

Alternatives

The reason I started this thread was to fish out as many ideas and as much experience as I could. My first impressions (absolutely subject to rethinking or persuasion):

  • Rotary switch-- I can easily make the system respond to either buttons or a rotary switch with no change in code, if the switch is one of the old fashioned kind rather than an encoded style. 24 position rotaries are available, but hard to find, like player piano motors. Anything with more than 10 tracks (except a keypad) would require a Mega rather than a Uno. 
  • Back in, front in-- I'm leaning toward having a toggle switch that chooses which end of the turntable points to the selected track. That cuts buttons to one per track. Or fewer, if any tracks oppose each other.
  • Simplicity-- I will include a manual control as the base option. This could be a joystick, spring centered potentiometer, or (on) off (on) switch that would override the indexing. If that's all you want to build, that's all you need.
  • Next and previous track buttons-- I'm not sure you'd get all of the operations you need, such as "turn around and line up on the lead track", but it could be incorporated into a keypad. This does have the advantage that you don't have to learn track numbers.
  • Hall effect angle sensor-- I love this gadget, & will buy a few to play with, but I don't think it would be appropriate for this project. It would require circuit level soldering (SMD to boot) and require pretty complex gearing between the motor and shaft.
  • Commercial offerings-- This is hardly unplowed ground. The MRS and NYRS systems look excellent and would be the choice for heavy duty or club operations, but they are priced accordingly. I will study these for ideas, but my target cost for this is the $50 range.
  • Programming-- I will have a single programming button if I can make it work. If you hold the programming button and hit the zero (lead) button, that will set the current location as zero. If you hold prog and hit a track button, it will mark the current location as the stall relative to the lead.
  • DCC-- There are too many worms in that can for me to address at this time, but maybe a future version.
  • Keypad-- Keypads are attractive for their generality. Anybody with more than 8 stalls will probably need one, so I think I'll include a keypad option in the code. probably just a 12 button job, as the programming button should be elsewhere (for safety) and the manual drive will work best with a different knid of control.

Please keep these ideas coming in. I'm just beginning the design process. I'd especially like to hear from folks who have a turntable and learn what moves they make most often with it.

pqe

Reply 0
Neil Erickson NeilEr

16 Position Rotary Switch

@pqe - I see a 16 position 5 pin rotary switch so that the logic of the four contacts could decide on one of the sixteen tracks using an Uno. Not sure about how to activate it but like the idea of a CW and CCW buttons to start the program.

The Hall effect sensors would allow "counting" and alignment.

Am I missing something?

Neil Erickson, Hawai’i 

My Blogs

Reply 0
ctxmf74

 "I will include a manual

Quote:

 "I will include a manual control as the base option. This could be a joystick, spring centered potentiometer, or (on) off (on) switch that would override the indexing. If that's all you want to build, that's all you need."

Ideally I'd want a manual control switch with some kind of alignment sensors that take over for fine alignment when I got the turntable bridge near the stall track. I've always done it by eye with a power pack controlling the turntable rotation speed but  having sensors do the final alignment  would be handy....DaveB

Reply 0
bdhicks

Three buttons

I mostly like the setup Walthers has, with a clockwise and counterclockwise positon, where it will advance to the next indexed slot in that direction (and if you hold it down it will continue on past any indexed spots and then stop on the next indexed spot after you remove the button), but I would like to have a single pushbutton option to rotate 180 degrees and turn a locomotive.

-Brian
Reply 0
AJKleipass

Too old school?

Reading through this thread, I am starting to wonder if I am too old school to be a model railroader. My idea for a "manual" control is a mechanical crank or a plywood disk protruding from the fascia and paired to the bridge with linkage or a tie rod. Sometimes it just seems that we are so obsessed with DCC-this and Arduino-that that we forget that there are other ways - "old fashioned" ways that are decades old - for doing these things.

[end rant] I'll go back to my padded room now....

AJ Kleipass

Proto-freelance modeling the Tri-State System c.1942
The layout is based upon the operations of the Delaware Valley Railway,
the New York, Susquehanna & Western, the Wilkes-Barre & Eastern,
the Middletown & Unionville, and the New York, Ontario & Western.

 

Reply 0
Pelsea

Old school?

I know what you mean. I just bought a new car that has automatic back seat driving— it won’t let me change lanes without signaling, adjusts my following distance, and yells if I try to park too close to the rose bushes.

Dave’s idea is interesting—I know how to do that, but we’d still need the buttons or keypad for programming.

That’s two votes for next and previous buttons. I'll have to give that more thought.

pqe

Reply 0
ctxmf74

" I just bought a new car

Quote:

" I just bought a new car that has automatic back seat driving— it won’t let me change lanes without signaling, adjusts my following distance, and yells if I try to park too close to the rose bushes."

My wife's sister got one of those and she wanted us to drive it a bit while she was away on a trip( something about sitting too long not good for the hybrid batteries) I noticed that if I just ignored all the clamor it eventually gave up and let me drive in peace. I think it took about 20 miles before it figured out I had my own opinion of where the lines were :> ) .......DaveB

Reply 0
Constructor

Other Features

Jim at BSME --- Some of the features shown in the videos and not in the original posting, above, are: automatic slowing of bridge rotation upon approaching alignment with selected track bridge orientation selection on/off home position maintained greater alignment precision available remote placement of control pad robust, non-warping construction (aluminum) ..... There is more to consider in a turntable design/installation than just the use of an Arduino microcontroller. I was/am responding to the original poster's request for additional input to make his efforts better and, hopefully, those efforts to ba an improvement over what already exists.
Reply 0
HVT Dave

Push buttons

Pelsea,

The Walthers 130 ft turntable on my last layout had the two button, release just before desired stop, arrangement.  I would prefer a push button on a local control panel which would have the bridge rotate the shortest distance to the correct track.  12 tracks, two bridge ends.

As an added bonus this could be upgraded in the future to a DCC switch command.  

Dave

Dave

Member of the Four Amigos

 

Reply 0
Moe line

K.I.S.S.

Keep it simple, I would prefer a manual crank drive to turn the table from the edge of the bench work, with eyeball alignment. I would, however,  also want auto reverse built into the turntable, and a simple circuit set up that keeps all of the Roundhouse tracks dead, except for the one stall track that the turntable is lined up in position for use.

The current offering of turntables from Walthers for example, are not robust enough for my use and would need to be upgraded with a metal main shaft and metal gears, with a nice thrust type of flat center bearing, and sturdy metal roller bearings on the ends of the table bridge that ride on the ring rail.

That set up would also allow the use of a metal ring rail, properly gapped that would take care of the reversing circuit, and power feed through the ring rail to the outer bearings and bridge track via wipers, so there would not have to be a slip ring on the center shaft to provide power to the bridge. I am not sure about what type of sensor would be needed to power the stall tracks, as I am not any good with electronic devices. 

Reply 0
Chris Ellis

Nothing fancy

I'm building a CMR turntable right now and I too have been weighing options for control. I love the idea of Arduino control and other motorized options but I will probably just go old school for now. 

My old school method is a hand crank but with a twist in that the mechanism is built from Legos. I've made a working proof of concept, I just need to complete the turnable now. I only have 4 tracks that the turntable will service (2 are storage tracks), so I don't really need a fancy control system.

A control upgrade in the future wouldn't be out of the question so I'll follow this thread with great interest.

Reply 0
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