Shelf/Deck Material Choice

I've seen many photos and descriptions of benchwork constructed of ¾ inch plywood, or 2” foam, backed up with 1x3 or 1x4's laid on the edge. Certainly strong enough, but what might be the alternatives for shelf type layouts?

1) Plywood Subroadbed Shelf
That 3/4” plywood is just too heavy for my liking. I think in some cases it is chosen to try and prevent warpage over time. Of course in many instances it is so well supported by the eggshell framework under it, that you question the use of such a thick plywood anyway.

Rather I prefer a good quality plywood to try and prevent warpage. I like the furniture grade ½ inch plywood. And it is plenty strong enough to span 24” center supports.

2) Foam Subroadbed Shelf
Its pretty well confirmed that 2” good quality foam insulation board is strong enough to span those 24 inch center supports as well.

One concern that arose was how best to provide the best interface between the subroadbed material and those metal brackets. If I was utilizing the plywood I don't think there is any need to provide for addition area of support. But if I am utilizing foam, I can easily see a need for a broader (bigger) support interface between that narrow steel bracket face and the underside of the foam sheet. This can be accomplished by inserting an additional piece of material between the bracket face and the foam. (see photos in subsequent discussion).

Another concern became that of the cantilevered outer edge of the deck/shelf. Particularly in my case where I had made the lower level shelves deeper to accommodate some track loops, a freight yard, etc. Not only did the shelf have to support the track and structures, but it might be called upon to occasionally support more weight as we leaned on it to work on the upper decks.

What method/material might I add to those wall brackets to gain the additional support I was seeking? Of course one of the first things that comes to mind is wood beams (2x2, 2x4, 1x3) attached to those steel brackets.,...something like this...
 

But wait a minute, how about a piece of steel angle iron. A friend had an old metal shelf he was getting rid of and the four corner uprights were HD angle iron. I could lay those onto the one arm of the wall bracket and get a good strong support all the way to the outer edge of the shelf. And as a plus, the surface area of the one face of that angle iron could be bigger than that of the bracket face depending on the shape of that angle iron cross section.,....good for supporting foam deck alternatives (note in this case the face of the angle iron is not that much bigger that the bracket face)...

The next question is..

Hi 

The next question is - how much of your planned layout width is supported by these brackets?

The answer to this the provides the answer to - "how much unsupported width is there?" This answer will go a long way to answering whether you might need to add other substructure or not.

Additional Width to Bracket

Now if I were going to utilize foam sheet as my subroadbed/deck, i might even want to add additional 'support area' to those brackets. How about a 'channel section' of alum or steel. Here is a piece of alum channel I found in our local metal scrape yard (in fact I found 2 such long pieces before they crushed them up).

Outer Edge Vertical Supports

There are several areas on my new layout design where the shelves are quite wide,...the 3 blob (loop) areas. The distance from the walls to the outer edge of the shelf at several of these spots can be on the order of 50". In those locations there is no doubt that a vertical support leg will be required. That is easily done with any number of materials including a round or square metal 'tube', or a PVC tube, or etc. And it might even be temporarily 'removable' for those times that no real extra force is being applied to the shelf/deck surface. Just a couple of samples,....alum post salvaged from old hand railing, or pvc tube....

At the moment i have only identified 4 such shelf supports that might need this HD (heavy duty) horizontal beam approach, and that can be accomplished with the steel angle iron. All the rest of the shelves are much more shallow in depth, and thus doable with lesser strength 'extension beams'.

Brian, I have used these

Brian, I have used these brackets on a layout now long gone. I had 3/4 plywood mounted to them and held up very well. Of course they need to be mounted to studs such as you have. 

Lesser Strength 'Beams'

Speaking of lesser strength beams here is a couple of photos I took early on in my thinking processes. I simply shoved PVC plastic square tubes onto the ends of the wall brackets. There are some narrow depth shelf areas where this 'plastic beam' approach might be viable,...but I have a better idea.

Alum Deck Railing

Nothing fancy, this alum railing is used everywhere. Its 3/4 inch square hollow alum tubing. Its plenty stiff and generally in 3 foot lengths as it is in prefab deck and stair hand-rails. I also saw longer lengths of this same section alum in the 'metal tubing section' at Lowes.

I found mine at the metal scrap yard here in Florida. I'm sure a lot of it got damaged in the storms we had last year, and this year. Or if there is a remodel job on some commercial property, I'm sure they just pull the old stuff out and throw it away. Awhile back I suggested I was going to utilize some of this stuff as the upright post for my helix structure. Well now I have acquired another whole section of this railing, and cut it up into individual lengths. Its white in color this time.

I've got multiple ideas for this stuff:
1) For narrow shelf decks (less deep) I can use a single piece added onto the wall bracket to support the shelf if need be
2) For deeper shelf deck areas I can double it up side by side.
3) I still have it in mind for the uprights on my helix....plus
4) Diagonal pieces to rigidify my box frame surrounding the helix structure

5) *** To support my upper deck benchwork !!
I have in mine placing a small receptacle on the 2x4 wall studs that will hold onto the inner end of this alum railing tube (perhaps just a small steel angle bracket).  The outer end could then be held up with something like fishing-line leader wire tied to the ceiling. The 'railing tube beam' would then support the 1/2" plywood roadbed for the upper deck. It would be soooo unobtrusive, both top and bottom of that upper shelf. No wall brackets required,....just hanging from the ceiling with a very thin wire.

Them Brackets

I have several pairs of those brackets for in my garage..........when I bought those from Home Depot years ago it was stated that a pair of brackets can hold up to 1000 # of weight.

BR GP30 2300,  Those brackets

BR GP30 2300,  Those brackets are strong; they'll pull your studs outwards if too much weight is on them e.g., climbing up onto the layout with a knee or two. When I removed my layout, I had to redo the gyprock's surface to hide where the brackets warped the studs out a tad. 

Legs for wide areas

I often put cabinets under wide areas of bench work and use them for support and storage. Old kitchen base cabinets work well and are about 36 inches tall so there's room between their top and the benchwork bottom for wiring access. The buss wire can be hung along the bottom of the benchwork on hooks so it can be lowered for soldering on new wires, etc. That way one doesn't have to try and see up under the benchwork when soldering......DaveB

Storage (cabinet) Under Lower Deck/Shelf

That's an interesting idea DaveB.

I have a cabinet I bought used for just such a purpose, but sort of changed my mind when I thought about having nice easy access under the bottom shelf. I even was giving up the idea of storing racks of trains and misc train stuff under the layout shelves so i could maintain that easy access underneath.

Perhaps i will have to revisit those ideas, or at least wait for awhile after getting up and running, and tried and proven, before storing things under there.

On the right hand yard side, I do have in mind a staging track configuration incorporated within the triangular area of those wall brackets

Two Different Wall Thickness Railings

Something I only discovered yesterday while taking a few of those photos,....those deck railing square alum tubes are two different wall thicknesses. The white ones are clearly a thicker wall thickness than the black ones,...must be stronger,...perhaps no need to 'double them up side-by-side' for added strength?

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/metal-benchwork-12207979

Here is an interesting

Here is an interesting illustration of what I have in mind, except this example utilizes wood extensions to the wall brackets.
 

Let me restate this. I like

Let me restate this. I like this nice clean looking frame work on this example,

and particularly the lack of bulky frame work of this more conventional construction.

I simply want to substitute my stiff, relatively thin metal tubes for the wood beams they utilized,.....and that is the case whether I utilize plywood OR foam for the roadbed

In fact I am leaning towards plywood shelf/decks on the lower level, and foam on the upper level. There are some other considerations when making these choices,...

Metal Benchwork Framing Sun,

Metal Benchwork Framing

A little note to myself, and a link to another fellow who has similar ideas,....

I was originally considering making vertical brackets at each of the wall stud location to support the plywood shelves. then I ran across these steel square tubing at the local metal scrap yard.

My contractor friend. who was going to weld up the considerable number of vertical brackets I had sketched up, came back with an interesting idea. Why not lay these square tube 'beams' horizontally along the walls and lag them into the wall studs. Then the plywood shelves (decks) could be attached along their wall edge and cantilevered out. And where the shelf/deck is of a substantial depth, the outer edge might also be supported primarily by another long piece of this horizontal square tubing with only an ocassional vertical support.

I am now planing on utilizing this 'horizontal framing' idea on my staging track level and my lower primary deck. I may even utilize the idea for my upper deck, particularly as they will be more shallow than the primary deck. I will definitely utilize the larger 2" square tubing to support the lower primary deck. For the staging level (relatively shallow), and the upper deck I may utilize my 'bed frame angle iron'. I'll document this more thoroughly as I get to building it.

Meantime I ran across this gentleman's use of 1" square steel tubing...
https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/bopc-cincinnati-west-construction-12196885

R Seiler's Metal Work   My

R Seiler's Metal Work
 

Evolution of Idea

Over the past year I have been thinking and experimenting with ideas for my benchwork for my new layout in a shed.

Quick update,....the first piece of horizontal steel tube framing along the back wall of the shed. The large size square tubing is the type that will be utilized to support the edge of the plywood deck next to the walls.. This will be selectively placed around the perimeter of the shed. There will also be central pieces at the inner edges of the shelf somewhat like shown on this preliminary dwg.
 

Why so Heavy

Unistrut

The reference to these materials was made over on my Tupper Lake subject thread, and not discussed at any length at that point. I thought it deserved more attention for anyone contemplating metal benchwork.

more IMAGES of UNISTRUT

square tubing reaching out from the wall

I was thinking about using the perforated square steel tubing but stretching out from the wall using some kind of cantilever support. I found this fastener:

It is available from farmtek  https://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/prod1;ft_barn_curtain-ft_barn_curtain_conduit;pg104624_104624.html in a size that fits around 1.5"x1.5" square tubing. You'd have to drill holes through the fitting and use a bolt to keep the tube from slipping out.

If you want to use 1"x1" square tubing, these fasteners are too big, but maybe your friendly neighborhood welder could just weld a steel plate on the end of your perforated steel tubing for the cost of these fasteners. If you made the plate 6" long (like these fasteners), what do people here think? Would that be strong enough to support a steel tube reaching out from the wall up to 3' (without using any other kind of shelf bracket or gusset to support it)?

The profiles are too heavy

The profiles are too heavy and expensive for that job. There are angle, L shaped profiles for that. The channel had to be fastened to the studs with the back on them, the screw head offset  adds a moment to the connection with the stud and to the screw and has a pullout effect too.
Τhere is a rule for fasteners 1=0. and the structure is that strong as the weakest part of it. My comments above are partially generated from the need of robustness which is in the most of the posts for the layout construction in this forum.

Your loads
0,5 inch plywood     10kgf/m2  2lb/ft2
deck full of trains       7kgf/m2 1,4lbf/ft2
scenery, equipment   3kgf/m2 0,6lbf/ft2
                     sum      20           4
enough?
let's make a far jump to the safety  20*1,5=30kgf/m2 or  4*1,5=6bf/ft2
the distance betwen the two lines of supports (wall, internal beam) is about the same with as stud spacing 24''=0.6m
so for each line we have a load 0,3*30=9kgf/m or 1*6=6lbf/ft and for each fastener at the wall side
0,6*9=5,4kgf or 2*6=12lbf
It is tooo small shear load even for one screw ofcourse when is right mounted.
So from your plan the most loaded internal line support is that on the middle section and then at the right side. length cca 8ft. you can use drywall studs. They can be used for loads up to 15lbf/ft2. There are tables with max length and spacing for different loads and deflection limits. If you are interesting to this i can find something for you.
As for the middle part of your layout the middle line support needs totally fixed stiff studs  to the floor and i dont think you can do it. So your alternative is two parallel line supports as for the rest layout.

https://www.clarkdietrich.com/sites/default/files/imce/pdf/SupportTools/Catalogs/Structural/MasterStructural2017.pdfhttps://www.itools.clarkdietrich.com/structural_stud.php

Multiple Tubes Reaching Out from Wall

If you read back thru this thread you will find I was headed down that path originally. And my friend experimented with welding up some of those multiple brackets that would be required.

It was at this stage that he suggested laying the square tube beam ACROSS the wall horizontally for the inner support, and likely another horizontal beam at the outer edge of the plywood shelf IF it's depth exceeded approx 16". .....much less cutting and welding,...could even be bolted.

I'll post more photos as I build mine

BTW, it is not necessary to utilize the HeavyDuty sign post material I found at the scrap yard. The metal channels of old mattress bed supports is plenty strong, but may lack the surface area contact between beam and plywood shelf one would want for a pure cantilevered shelf.

Skeptical

Those questions above answered,...

It will be lag screwed into every stud location, which in this shed are on 24" centers. The studs in housing construction are normally on 16" centers.

As you can see I have MULTIPLE holes to  utilize there, so I can easily add more as necessary.

Here are the possible locations of those 'front edge beams', and the upright posts as I see it now. BTW I don't have a problem with adding additioal suppot along the 'inner edges' as I can mount my LED lighting out there and run my DCC wiring along there, all behind a very 'thin' fascia piece.
 

Unsupported plywood

22 inches of unsupported plywood puts a lot of strain on the wall fastenings, even if it's stiff enough and strong enough for the trains  there's the possibility of a person leaning on it and bending it down. I'd add some metal shelf brackets securely screwed into the wall studs and just deal with the scenic implications. As noted in the recent post a test section would save all this speculation and let you get on with the layout construction.....DaveB