Another Chapter in the J&L Railroad

Starting this new Blog on construction will now give you a second Chapter in your Model Railroad experiences. Up till now your posts have all been about concept, design and the difference between area on paper and actual construction area with the differences exposed just before starting construction. I've been there a few dozen times.

One thing I discovered is, "Draw every thing you planned for your RR in an area 12"(approx 31 cm) smaller both in length and width". Then when you get to the point your at now (Layout and construction) and you find your needing an extra few inches for walking or to create clearance for a turn you have the extra room. Then as you layout your basic bench-work you have the room to make the corrections.

Should everything that you have drawn layout correctly, then before starting slightly stretch and widen your plan to fill the area. For some reason it always seems that what you put on paper never really seems to have enough room once you lay it out. Then again its always nice to have that extra few inches to stretch a reverse loop or "Y" to get that more aesthetic look and with an extra 6 inches(15.24cm) on each end and side it will give you when you start building. It's always easier to stretch the layout to fill an area then it is to shrink it to fit the area and crunch a turn.

One last thing always take your time and think Safety First nobody likes to be called Stubby after they hack off a finger or two on the radial arm or Drop saw.

Now start driving spikes and good luck.

Dan

P.S. what era and Railroad are you basing the J&L on?

Jason, I appreciate the your first post in the new blog is

not picture heavy.  Since the first post will always be at the top of each succeeding page, a short paragraph  or two introducing the blog subject is much appreciated.  I look forward to seeing what you do with this new building you have.  Your railroad sounds like an exciting undertaking, and should be a lot of fun for your son as he grows up with the railroad.

Let your Blog read like a book it saves a lot of space

As Russ has said, I have one thng to add and that is when you do add photos just click add coment and place your pictures as another post on your blog. Then when someone does click on your blog they can thumb through all the posts and see all your photos as you build rather then you removing photos to add new ones or making everyone look at the same thing on the top of every page..

It is very hard to run out of room by adding photos to your Blog posts but if you remove all your older photos nobody can see the actual changes and progress you have made if the can only see the newest photos and you remove the old. It much better for all if we can see the mystakes the changes in comparison from first to last as we read through the posts that are contained in your blog.

Like Russ has stated your first page of your blog is perfect Don't add photos to it add any new photos to the add comment at the end of every post on your blog it will help people to learn as they read. Like when you read a book nobody likes to have to return to the first page to see your latest photos. add to the blog forum as you go helps to make your blog progress more like a book with new photos on each page as you go rather then everytime you turn the page you see the same thing and have to scroll down through all the same photos on every page. If you try to put all your photos on page one then there will never be room for page 2 or aditional comments.

When you deside to add to your Blog just go to Recent posts and go to the last page and click on add comment and you can't go wrong. if you want to start a new blog then start at the add blog section.

Dan

First site meeting...

Hi All,

Well today the VP and the CEO of the J&L had a little site meeting to check out the condition of the building materials and try and get a feel for the method we are going to use for constructing the basic stud wall that will support the bench work.

The VP (aka Lachlan) checking out the construction tools...

I have decided to use the standard timber top & bottom plate method with studs.  The timber we are using is 90x45 treated pine.  The reason for being treated, well in our area termites are a major problem that are not worth taking a risk with and having them eating at your frame and bench work.  It is also rated to be outdoors and in the ground which should help with expansion and contraction.  Original I was going to use a steel framing system called Unistrut, however this was going to cost around $2000 AUD for the entire set-up and I couldn't justify the cost.  The timber for this section of the framework was around $600 AUD mark.

The spacing of the horizontal studs will be 600mm (24"), the bottom plate will be attached to the concrete floor using dynabolts around every 1200mm (47").  The top plate will be attached horizontally (around every 2m (78") using beams that will span the width of the layout and then attached to the steel shed frame, this will stop the framework from wanting to pull in, and will later provide a frame for a ceiling and fascia that will run around the top deck.

The actual deck supports/brackets are still up in the air, and I am considering my options.  One is to use the same timber and have it screwed, glued & blocked to the studs (shorter spans upto 600mm).  The other is actually using 15mm (1/2") galvanised pipe that would be placed through a hole drilled into the studs.  There is one section of deck that is supporting a span between 700mm - 750mm (27.5" - 29.5") this is the section that I am considering the galvanised pipe for, or I may even bight the bullet and install a small section of the Unistrut system as I know it will span and support these lengths.

I will be using a light pine frame with luan door skin and "Canite" top that will form the layout base, in total this will not exceed 110mm (4 1/4").  This combination has been used with my current module and I'm very happy with the way it has performed.

I'm going to mock up a small section of wall first and run a few load tests on each section before finally making my mind up as to which method I'll use.

Cheers,

Jason...

Man.............

I see that nice big empty building and it even gets me excited! I really can appreciate the amount of planning and research you are doing prior to construction. You're going to have a rock solid foundation for your layout. In my opinion that is a crucial first step. Looking forward to seeing what is sure to be a great railroad taking shape. Thanks for sharing and keep the posts coming Jason!

Hope it's rock solid too...

Kevin,

Your spot on with getting the frame section right, I would hate to think about having to replace or strengthen any part or section of a layouts frame after putting in trackwork, wiring and worst of all scenery!  I'll actually ask the question now of all, what you all believe would be an average weight of a section of benchwork, base, trackwork, wiring, structures, and scenery over a section around 900mm x 600mm (36"x24")?

At this stage I've taken a rough estimate that a section would not exceed say 20kg (45 pounds) as this the weight of a bag of Portland cement (I have moved my fair share of them around this house!).  As I mentioned I will mock up a section of wall and load test it with several different scenarios.  I'll hang bricks of each support and measure the vertical distance and check it after a couple of days, then shock test it by me sitting on it.  So if it can withstand those tests I'm fairly certain it will survive for many years.

Thanks for the comments, and likewise please keep your posts and photos coming too.

Cheers,

Jason...

Missed the PS, Dan...

Sorry Dan I missed your PS at the end of your first comment.  I think when I first started on MRH I was unsure about the era and area, although that has changed somewhat in the last couple of months.  At this stage I have narrowed it down to the decade between 1970 to 1980 give or take a year or two on the 70's side (so I can run my PRR GP7's), the area was going to be around Chicago/Illinois area but I'm actually thinking about coming back towards the east a bit more towards Detroit/Michigan so that I can pick up the PRR and the Reading more.

As I have said it's hard here in Australia to find the resources easily to base things on, this is half the reason why I decided to have the layout as a proto-freelanced layout.  Not prototypical scenery and track wise, but more the actual RR operating in a fictional area based around a state or city.  This way the actual motive power and rolling stock used is somewhat prototypical but the area and scenery has some poetic licensing attached to it.

Wikipedia has been good and I have gleamed alot of information from it, however it doesn't go far enough to explain actually how far a RR would have travelled, eg: Would a Reading train actually go anywhere near Detroit or Chicago?  Likewise a PRR train?  Or would a CSX, BN, UP, NW train run eastwards all the way to New York.  If the answer is yes to all above well then it makes it easy for me to say it will be the Chicago/Illinois area that our pike will be loosely based on.

If the answer is no, well then I have to narrow it down a little further!

Cheers,

Jason...

And the frame go's up...

Hi All,

Well today I had a fairly productive afternoon erecting some of the rear section of the frame for our layout.  As previously mentioned it is a timber/treated pine frame sized at 90x45.  This size and method used is what we use in Australia to construct the majority of our brick/veneer homes.  The method uses horizontal top and bottom plates with a vertical stud in between, normally this is fixed together using 75mm (3") nails fired from a nailing gun, I have used hex head screws to allow the entire frame to be disassembled easier if required or alterations to be made during construction.

The frame itself is 2000mm (6.5') high although this will be extended in the corners and every 1200mm (47") to 2400mm (7.8') on the longest sides of the shed.  This extended section will then support beams approximately 140x50 (5.5"x2") that will provide supports for the layout ceiling and further strengthening of the frame in the future once all the decks are completed.  The horizontal studs are spaced every 600mm (24") along the frame, these will then support each deck.  I think I've gone for overkill on the spacing at 600mm, and I could have settled at 900mm but better to be safe than sorry...

At this stage I have secured the frames to the concrete floor using dynabolts and to the shed frame using oddly enough retractable blind brackets (only temporary) until I come up with a better method.

In the corner of the frame there is a small 45 degree section of extra frame that will provide the 600mm support to the corners of the decks via one stud, this will also allow a point to support and fix a curved backdrop.

Tomorrow I will hopefully get a chance to finish off this section and test out my idea for the actually deck supports.  I am going to use 15mm (1/2") galvanised pipe that will placed through the centre of the studs horizontally.  This will be achieved by drilling through the entire 90mm width of the stud, then placing the galvanised pipe which will be threaded on one end through the stud and securing it with a threaded cap.

This will then have a small piece of 90x15 pine attached to the pipe using pipe clips, then each section of bench work will be screwed to the pine support.  My idea behind this is that a can make up 1200mm (47") section of benchwork like modules, this will then allow for removal of sections if (a) I don't like it (like a chainsaw) or (b) if I get bored eventually I can change sections or the entire layout quite easily...

So we are finally underway and I'm really excited, it is so fulfilling to actually have something coming up off the ground.  The one thing that I must say is that you have to be really flexible with your thinking, because this afternoon I think I actually spent in total a good hour or more taking steps back and saying "is that really going to work", or "hang on what about that bit".

If I can critique myself I would say that I really should have written down everything that was sloshing around in the old brain box regarding what I wanted!  That way as I'm building a can refer to my notes and think about all those things now, that won't be able to be added when the decks are up, and the scenery completed......

More to come soon...

Cheers,

Jason...

Jason, I don't know much about East Coast roads.

My buddy is planning to model the area around Philadelphia, and the Lehigh Valley.  He is about 5 years from retiring and moving to the 5 acre retirement property he bought in Newport, Oregon.  Right now he is building locomotives and accumulating rolling stock to populate the layout which will be built in a barn that is on the property.  I think he is focusing on the 1970's or 1980's, so he has built models for the Pennsy, PC, Conrail, C&O, B&O, & Reading,  There may be other railroads that went through that area, but those are the only ones I can think of right now that he is modeling. 

Russ, Thanks for the

Russ,

Thanks for the information, it's a starting point to work from.  Every little bit helps!  There will be someone out there who is an expert about the area I'm looking at, it's just a matter of finding them or them finding me...

Cheers,

Jason...

Drywall?

Are you planning to drywall the inside of the shed?

Charlie

Did consider it Charlie...

Charlie I did consider it however the extra work and cost involved was to excessive.  The shed really isn't designed to have plaster hung from it in its current configuration (roof is not designed to take the load of plaster), and would require some major work to get to a point that it could be plastered.

I have however another alternative, when the layout is nearer completion I am going to have a facia above the top deck that will extend upto the ceiling.  The ceiling will only cover the area that in the middle above the walkways and will be supported by the timber beams that I will be installing later, it will most likely be thin masonite or similar and painted black.  I will also insulate the walls and ceiling with poly batts.  I have seen it done here with our own home and they basically put the batts in the wall and using packing strap to hold it in place.  This will save me plastering the walls that would never be seen behind the layout just to hold back the batts.

I will also be installing some spinning vents on the ridge line of the roof to aid in removing hot air during summer, hopefully with a combination of the ceiling, poly batts, spinning vents I should be able to make the shed quite comfortable in all extremes of weather.

Cheers,

Jason...

Jason you really need to apply Dry wall to the walls

Jason you have the walls insulated 1/2 way. You really need to complete the job and apply at least 3/8" (9.52mm) or close to that thickness to seal the walls and make the building 200% less likely to cause extreme changes to your pike with weather temperature changes and you really need to do it before you put up the frame work for your Railroad.

As for the ceiling, Masonite is a bad Idea!! There are much less expensive drop ceiling installations that can be added later on down the road. 

Even where you live you will find framing for 2ft X 4ft = 62.23cm X 123.19 cm fiber glass panels just about 25% more expensive than Masonite and 1/2 the total weight as well as 400% better insulation.

Masonite when used for ceilings will absorb moisture and in less than a year it will start to sag down ward, bow and look like crap even when nailed directly to the roof joists in 2ft X 4ft sections, even if you buy the tempered version of Masonite.

With the Drywall on the walls and the fiberglass panel drop ceiling panels in place you can install a small air conditioner in the wall next to the entrance  for a cost of about $85.00 U.S.Dollars for the AC I'll let you convert from there to AUD.  60.00 AUD I think but I don't have a converter for AUD to USD. Any way in the long run with Drywall on your walls and the fiber glass drop ceiling you can keep your building temperature at about 75 degrees Fahrenheit all year round and the AC unit will help to remove any and all the humidity from the building. Even without the AC unit, the room will stay 50% cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter with a small space heater.

Temperature change and humidity are the biggest enemies of Model Railroads. You'll find this out when you start building scenery and using plaster and water born glues. there are many more things to consider and ways to get around the weight of the ceiling, You'll find the extraction of moisture will be your main concern so please consider what I've tried to explain here in the long run it will save you a lot of money and help to eliminate the problem of corrosion that moisture causes.

You have come a long way toward building a great railroad so don't skip the Drywall as it really is a large part of the main construction and a lot more important then you think.

Dan

I agree with Dan

Jason:

I agree with Dan - you also need to consider the resale value of your house with the shed. If you do a half-baked job of insulating it, the next owners will curse you and/or you won't get the full value out of the property.

I took the time to complete my basement remodeling before I built the Siskiyou Line, which included proper insulation and drywall work. Sure it took longer, but the basement is a very comfortable place to work, and the layout stays warm in the winter and cool in the summer.

Plus if I ever sell the house, I can remove the layout and there's a finished basement in its place.

Any place where the layout would go against an exterior wall I put in insulation, drywall, mudded the wall, and applied texture and painted it. For interior walls where the layout would go, I installed drywall, mudded the wall, applied texture, and painted it.

I do have a couple walls in the basement where there is not any layout that I never finished the mudding, texturing, or painting - but all the places the layout went, I finished the walls properly first. It was hard because I was impatient to start the layout - and it delayed the layout construction by a good 6 months because I was doing all this work myself in the evenings and weekends around other duties - and I also did some modeling (building bridges mostly).

I have never regreted my decision to finish the layout room walls properly first.

Dan your in trouble...

Dan,

After reading your post and sitting back in the shed and pondering your comments over my morning coffee, I agree the shed needs to be plastered and insulated.  My wife however is now officially not happy with Dan from MRH anymore, I mean all I said was "I need to spend a little more money on the layout honey, the guys say I need to do it", "how much"?  "Ah a couple more hundred", and that's when it went down hill!  Doh......

Seriously though it means I have to wait another month or two, do a bit more overtime at work, but in the long run as you and Joe have both mentioned I and others will benefit greatly from it.  And to plaster the walls it was only around the $220 AUD for the plaster (not bad really in the grand scheme).  Oh and by the way my wife really is mad at you, or me! 

So after that sudden thud, I decided to continue on with the framework and look at the system for the shelving.  Well we learn by mistakes don't we?  Well I have again (re-occuring theme perhaps), my original idea using 1/2" galvanised pipe as the supporting brackets just didn't work, there was to much flex in the pipe and timber combined.  Below are a couple of quick photos showing the first attempt at shelving using gal pipe...

The pipe is bored through the timber and secured at the back using a threaded 1/2 gal cap, the block was then screwed to the stud.  The idea makes the shelving system easy to remove or alter if required.

Was all good in theory but there was 10mm (3/8") play when any weight was placed on it...

So this one will be a "good in theory" but was never going to work...   So take "2"...

My original idea (funny how original ideas are often the right one!) was to use the 90x45 treated pine as the brackets, screwed, liquid nailed, and blocked as the brackets.  Well tried that without liquid nails and just screwed, and it is rock solid!  I also added a small 5mm degree of incline to allow for any drop with weight, and it was spot on.  I actually could push down with all my weight on the very ends of the bracket and only get a couple of mm movement in the spirit level.

The only downside to this was that I have gained some significant height in the bracket and benchwork combined (extra 90mm), the idea behind the benchwork was to allow each section to be built as module that could be removed if warranted.  I still can have this I will just have to use a piece of plywood (10-15mm) instead of using the current 90x19mm pine.  The other advantage that this system will create is that there will be a significant reduction in the weight of each section (no more 90x19mm).

I am so glad that between myself and my Dad today that we nutted it out and came up with a better solution and method that what I had originally planned.  Again "flexibility & lateral thinking" win out again......

Anyhow have another day down in "manland" tomorrow, so will post some more at the end of the day.

Cheers,

Jason...

Thanks Joe

Joe,

Thanks for the advice as well, I have taken your's and Dan's advice and will both plaster and insulate the shed.  The method will seem odd to some but when you see the shed and framework progress I'm sure it will all make sense.  Well it made sense to both my Dad and I today anyhow...

Cheers,

Jason...

Jason, you could save some "vertical space" by using steel.

If you have a structural steel company near by, get some 1"x1/4" steel strap.  Reduce your lumber size for the supporrt of your bench work to 1x2 and run a steel diagonal brace back to the 2x4 upright.

Great Jason

by finishing the building with Drywall you will have a railroad that will last a few life times and your grandchild's children will be able to enjoy your work.

Tell your wife in the long run that finishing the building will keep all your equipment from rusting away and you won't need to replace your engines every year. Besides she'll benefit too because all the stuff she stores in the train room will be staying in the same condition 20 years from now as it is today with the room being  climate controlled just ask my wife she has 30 years of junk stored in boxes under my railroad.

Dan

Jason fully lining your shed

Jason fully lining your shed is definately the way to go. My trainroom takes up only part of my shed and during summer it's cooler than the rest of my shed but it does warm up though after spending time in there.  I lined the room and installed cornice before I had decided what form my layout would take. I'm happy with the way it turned out but I would change one thing, install cornice only where it will be seen as  I eventually installed bulkheads which now cover the cornice. When I extend this room I will probably  just install  "internal" corner trim before hanging the sheets and this will provide some backing so I can trowel some base coat in the corners.

Cheers Steve

BTW, are you going to Caulfield ?

Funny you mentioned the storage Dan..

Dan,

You sure your not tapped into my brain at some higher functioning level?  When Dad was down the other day he suggested to me that I use the front half of the shed above the layout for camping gear, smaller odds & bits, and stuff we wanted kept that really wouldn't see the light of day for a while.  As it turned out it will supply a decent above of space.

And I also told my wonderful wife that she could use it for storage, which won maybe one or two browny points.

Cheers,

Jason...

Hey Steve...

Yeah I will be doing it, the cost is not that much extra even getting the plaster from Mitre 10.  And it will help during summer, I have two willow peppermints that sit on the north side of the shed so between them shading the shed, a couple of spinning vents, and maybe a portable cooler it should be quite comfortable.

As for cornice I'm not sure if I will need it, like you I'm installing bulkheads.  And possible a another floor above the layout for storage.  If I need to finish off to that level I will install the cornice at the end before final painting.

As for Caulfield I'm trying to get a leave pass, it should be ok?  I'll have to leave the credit cards at home as I have been banned from buying anything further for the layout until the OT starts flowing back through the bank account!

Cheers,

Jason...

More framing tonight...

Hi All,

Well another quick update from the J&L tonight.  Did a couple of hours yesterday, about an hour today and finally two hours tonight.  Just fixing up some framing issues and installing another section.  I have changed a few things to allow for a mezzanine level above the layout that will be used for storage (my Dads idea too).

I have had to double stud the sections that will eventually support the cross beams that will hold the upper floor and ceiling.  Not really much more work, or cost but really makes good use of all the space in the shed.  Anyhow photos below...

Shot showing the back wall and back frame of the layout, this was at 10:00pm at night hence the floodlights/heater lights being on!

Section I am installing on the right, the height difference between the right hand side and back is the difference between finished ceiling height (higher stud wall) and the top of the finished facia on the top of the upper deck.  The horizontal metal beam on the back wall above the top of the stud wall is the finished floor level height of the storage area.

Couple of shots of the left hand side frame with the double studs to support the upper floor beams.

Shot of the new bracket system I'm using to attach the timber frame to the shed frame.  These brackets come in a strip and can be cut to varying sizes with a pair of tin snips.  Also shows the double studs up close.

And finally I had a chance to install the future alarm system that will guard the J&L, it's a very simple system that requires minimal maintenance, and has a very affective double acting intruder stopper.  As you can see by the photo below the double infrared detectors should pick up anyone that shouldn't be anywhere near the J&L......

And she does it 24 hrs a day for some dry food, a walk, and a little pat and scratch of her belly!  

Thanks Phoebe...

That's all for next couple of days, am going to have a little break.  Might get some more done on the module, and report back on it.

Cheers,

Jason...

Hey Jason...

this is a very interesting blog to me since I am always intrigued how in other country's (be it overseas or just across the pond) houses (buildings), sheds, logghomes are build up. Even more how the same materials have a different usage in different country's.

From what I'v seen in the pics you are an organised worker (builder). The no clutter around is the proove of that. No clutter meens, faster...so keep up the good work my friend, in no time there will be a railroad there.

Oh btw...speaking of alarm systems...I got one of the same sort.... Belle (same maintenance level as your system and yep, double acting stopper also, only difference I think, she's almost always in silent mode when, giving intruders their lifetime surprise, lol)

Belle, 18 months going on 3 now.

Need more timber...

Hi All,

Well had another day framing the layout today, and ran out of timber.  Perfect timing really as I'm off leave in another three days then back to work.  So this will limit my time on the layout, but will increase the funds for the J&L (hopefully some more OT).

Today was another productive day, and I nearly managed to get all of the north side of the layout framing completed.  I have only a small section of the northern return loop to finish, and the southern peninsula and return loop and the basic frame will be completed.

I mocked up the upper and lower deck heights on the frame today to get a feel for how they sit, the visual aspect, the reach in distance, and the viewing angles.  I think I have struck a happy compromise between them all and am fairly happy.  Once the frame and the deck supports are in I will mock up the layout on cardboard and add the bare structures as well.  The deck heights I am going with are Top Deck @ 59", Middle Deck @ 36".

Photos below showing the frame and some tests for the visual, viewing and reach aspects of the layout.  Please feel free to make comments or add ideas...

Shot showing the north wall, and the start of the wall for the return loop.

Reverse angle showing return loop, and the deck support brackets.

Showing the deck brackets with final deck separation between middle & top decks of 18".  And the CEO showing off his photo pose (reach in)........

Photo showing reach in/over on the top deck.

Reach right in on middle deck. (the actual support span is 650mm/25.5" with a 5mm incline off level to the front)

Seated position whilst viewing/operating middle deck, and reach in from seated.

Couple of quick shots of the design holding the widest section of deck on the layout at 700mm (27.5").  Deck support is 650mm/25.5"

So that's it for a few weeks, now that I have officially ran out of timber, and ran out of annual leave, thankfully though not out of enthusiasm!  I'll continue on with the module until the spare time comes around again for the layout (won't be to long), and funds get back into the black.

Cheers,

Jason...