Great video!

Tim, it was great to see you operating on Tom’s layout. Now I can put a face to your name.

Tom’s layout is super-inspiring and I’m always amazed at how much operation can take place with even minimal real estate. 

Well done all around. 

Lots of interest.

I really enjoyed the video and it gave me inspiration to see an interesting operation take place in a small area.

Cheers.

Thanks, Tim!

Nice to see the action on Tom's extraordinary layout again!

You being a NS engineer, you weren't time-slipped by the regular GNRR conductor on that job, were you?

Awesome

Awesome video.  I came across Tom's YouTube channel as I was looking into model railroading as my new hobby and thanks to his videos, and others, my interest was peaked.  Tom's videos showed me there is more to the hobby than trains going around circles.  

It was neat seeing how you guys worked together to conduct a switching operation.  Can't wait to see more videos of Tom's layout in action.

Georgia Northeastern Operating Session

Tom and Tim, Thank guys for posting this nice operating session video.

Tom, your layout looks fantastic and it looks like the equipment operates very well, great job. I've always enjoyed switching layouts and your's is top notch. Only noticed one operational error, when Tim lined the turnouts, you didn't ask for a double check, other than that, nicely done guys.

Double checking

I hope no GNRR Conductor didn't take an exception to an ole NS guy working part time on the line. And Rich, since I was on the GNRR that was one rule we did not have to adhere to thankfully.

Car lengths are generally given in 50' car lengths. As an engineer when I'm holding to a string of cars the Conductor is sorta my back up camera. By giving the distance seen clear or to a planned stop the Engineer knows how to control the train. The rule for an Engineer is to stop if you have shoved half the distance and no other instruction has been received from the Conductor. So if the last instruction was clear for ten car lengths then if nothing has been received after traveling  five car lengths then the movement must be stopped. Engineers should repeat instructions until the distance is less than five cars. At five car lengths from a planned stop or coupling then the Conductor should state each car. Five, four, three, two, a car and a half, one car. Half a car, Fifteen feet, ten feet, five feet That'll do!

In HO Scale to pull this off we really have to slow down, otherwise we can't give car lengths fast enough before our HO Scale Engineer slams into the cars pushing them back a whole car length. 

Tim

"Only noticed one operational

   It also seemed odd that backward and forward reversed directions part way thru? .....DaveB 

Excellent Video

Excellent. Every was done nicely. Proper verbatim compliance. If some three way communications was missing, that's just human error. It happens. We have the same procedure at my job. Very well done.

Logically Speaking

Dave,

I realize some prefer to issue instructions relative to the direction of the controlling locomotive, however I have never liked that way even when I was a Conductor. For one, I have dealt with Bi-Directional locomotives for years on NS. And mainly because once I am a good number of car lengths away from the power I honestly sometimes forget which way the controlling unit is facing. I understand that is something that is easy to see on a Model Railroad where we have an eye in the sky vantage point but imagine being on the ground with the locomotives out of clear sight.

Unless there are cars on both ends of the power I will always use the term shove or pull. Either the engines have to shove on the cars or pull the cars. In the rare case where the power has cars on both ends I will use shove North or South. 

Hope this makes Logical Sense!

Tim

Shove and pull vs. Ahead back up

IAIS

Awesome video and layout!  I enjoyed that a lot.

Locally on the IAIS, during my era, the yard power would always face north (TT west) so the engineer was on the side where he could best view the conductor throwing switches.  So here, it was always "Back" (south/TT east) and "A-Head" (north/TT west), at least in the yard.

Bill Brillinger stopped by Sunday for a layout visit and impromptu op session where we operated much like Tom and Tim were in the video.  We discussed the video and crew dialogue, and at one point got on the subject of "That'll do" as a "stop" command.  Back around my era one of the Shreck movies had just come out, and shortly after it did, the regular yard crew here became fond of replacing "That'll do" with "At'll do don-kay" in a thick Scottish brogue.

Radio vs. Hand signals

I've had a few lengthy discussions about "forward" and "backward" with a good friend of mine who spent 33 years at CN. 

When using hand signals where the engineer can see the crew on the ground, direction typically is relative to the brakeman and not the engine.  The ground crew signals indicate "come back toward me" and "go forward away from me".

When using radio, direction was typically supposed to be relative to the engine, so the crew would need to keep track of which way was locomotive front.  However, if the crew members were familiar with each other, they would often revert back to directions relative to the crew on the ground.

The terminology used will also depend on the era you are modelling.  As several other folks who are railroaders In Real Life have pointed out, the proper verbiage used today differs from one railroad to the next.

He also got a chuckle from the "Go ahead and back up" phrase, so when operating, we would frequently use "Okay to go ahead and back-up" and "Okay to back-up go ahead!"

Craig

Or on one short line I worked

Or on one short line I worked for we had a new conductor originally, from Denmark who would tell me:

"Okay, we can now go forth/back". I explained to him as engineer, we weren't going anywhere unless he told me "take em back or bring em ahead" since that's what all the crews used. Consistency and compliance of the rules are important.

Barry

GNRR Radio Communication

I appreciate all the positive comments about the video and operations session. I really wanted to show how the model railroad is operated by the crew, the communication between the crew members, and how much operations you can have on a relatively small layout. The key is slowing down and following the prototype practices which I find easier with a two person crew. Tim did an excellent job as Conductor and it was a real pleasure to operate with him. 

I worked for the Blue Ridge Scenic Railroad (a subsidiary of the GNRR) as a Trainman for 5 years and was trained to GNRR standards. GNRR Engineers preferred the term "that will do" over "stop" when completing a movement. I was instructed if I needed an emergency stop to just say "stop", for the Engineer that was interpreted as an emergency stop and the brakes would be immediately applied. "That will do" was used to let the Engineer know he could come to a slow gentle stop. 

I agree with Tim, for commands to the Engineer it was relative to the Conductor on the ground. "Shove to me" is better than back up or forward as relative to the direction of the locomotive. For most of the shove moves in the video the locomotive was moving in the forward direction shoving towards the Conductor, so forward may have actually been backing up. It always was confusing to me until the GNRR Engineer explained it was best to give directions relative to the Conductor on the ground, as the Engineer should know where the Conductor is at all times. While Tim was giving commands appropriate to NS terminology, I understood his commands and what directions he was giving even though GNRR may use slightly different terminology. I may have not have repeated back the commands exactly as was given, but the intent was understood.

I have found that operating with a two person crew slows down the job and makes it more realistic. When I operate solo, I tend to switch a little faster and not follow the prototype procedures as much. Having one person assigned as Engineer allows them to focus on operating the locomotive which leads to using the whistle and bell appropriately and smoother switching operations. The Conductor can then concentrate on planning out the switch moves and line the turnouts. For me, I much prefer to operate with a two person crew.

Thanks again for all the comments about my layout and the operations video.

Tom Klimoski   

Which way is down....

Tim, It's funny we work for the same railroad. Where I'm at "Ok ahead" is always in the direction of the "F" painted on the locomotive side sill. "Ok back" is the opposite end. Does not matter if it's long hood lead or short hood lead or if the locomotive has two control stands, OK ahead is always the "F" end. Since we are a East / West mainline, if you can't see the locomotive, we use "OK East for xx" or "OK West for xx" Where xx is the car count. Yes it's the rule, if no further communication is heard when you've reached half the number given, you must stop. I've never heard anyone say "Pull" or "Shove" except when a train "Is on the pull". That must be old Southern Railway verbiage.  

 "if no further communication

What method is used to estimate the number of car lengths you've traveled?  .....DaveB

Car Lengths

On locomotives, you have distance counters, if I tell you OK ahead for 20 cars (like Tim mentioned all car counts are based on 50' cars) you are good for 1,000 feet. You don't hear any more from me by 500 feet, stop. When you're working the ground and after you've done the job for some time, when I tell you good for 20, I know how far 10 cars is, so I can tell you good for another 20 or if we are getting close maybe good for another 10. Once you get down to 5, you count each car down, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, then half a car and now you start counting down in feet, 20 feet, 10 feet, 5 feet and like everyone else mentioned, "That will Do". If you're knuckling in and the pins dropped, "give em a stretch". If they don't come apart, "Good Knuckle" Then if you need to hook up the air lines and knock off the hand brake, you'll have to ask for "3 step" or "conductor 3 step". 

Car counts and conductor protection

How long has that rule been in effect?  I don't railfan much these days, but Bill Brillinger mentioned it when we were operating Sunday, and that was the first I'd ever heard of it.  The crews I heard in my 2005 era definitely counted the cars down, but I just didn't know about the above rule to stop and wanted to be sure it's appropriate for my layout.

I think it's really interesting hearing the variations out there, either regionally or by railroad.  On the IAIS, for 3 step protection the conductor would call "Red Zone", and the engineer would reply "Set and centered".  Once the conductor was out from between the cars, they'd call "Clear of the zone".

When trying to uncouple cars that were stretched, the conductor would call "Little pin", apparently to cause the engineer to shove just enough to take the pressure off the knuckles and allow the uncoupling to take place.

Great thread!

Half The Distance Rule

The half the distance rule has been in effect for as long as I've been on the railroad. I think Tim has been on the railroad a few years more than I, maybe he knows about a time before the "Half the Distance Rule"? ]

Yes, we call for 3 step protection, the engineer applies the brakes, centers the reverser and drops the Gen Field Slide switch on the control stand and replies, "3 Step applied" When done we call "Drop 3 step protection" and we are back in business.

I've heard some guys say "Give me a pinch" I personally never liked that and always call for "Slack"  It seems the lingo does change from area to area.

RR slang

Railroad Slang has been around since the old link and pin days and varies greatly depending on the region or area. 

In my area if the Conductor needs slack to uncouple the cars He or She will say Give Me some Pin. I've heard others on a different division call for slack on the pin while some might just say On the Pin. Either way I know I need to bunch the cars when given that instruction.

The half distance rule has been around for as long as there have been radio communication. On a shove move if a CO tells me I'm clear for 30 cars I know I can go at least 15 50 foot car lengths before I have to stop but most of the time if I don't hear anything I'll just ask How many are we clear for? That way I don't have to stop. No, I don't use the foot counter because I have been running long enough where I know what a car length is. 

When an Engineer is switching cars around, making shove moves, etc. He will often look out the window straight down at the ground right beside the locomotive. This is the best way to judge the correct speed and control the movement. You would be surprised how deceiving it is to look out ahead. You don't realize exactly how fast or how much ground you've covered. This practice is especially useful when putting cars on a spot over a pit or under a platform on a tank track.

On NS we use the 3 Step Protection method for safety when the Conductor is working between or at the rear of the equipment. This started in the 2000s.  Before that we would just say Air and Brakes or A and B. 

Conductors can get down on or catch up on moving equipment as long as the speed is brought down to 2-3 mph and they must advise the Engineer when and where they will dismount. Most will drop off a car length away from the coupling. Back in the day when I was on the ground in the 90s I would drop off or catch up on the run. I remember old head engineers saying You better catch up or I'm going to make a milepost out of you!

Tim

Question for the Railroaders in the room...

These days, do you ever use hand signals anymore when switching, or are all communications done over radio?  Are your company policies such that your are discouraged or forbidden from using hand signals, and must always use the radio?

My CN buddy was telling me once that the current crop of engineers and conductors were "highly discouraged" from using hand signals, and some barely even knew signals for stop, forward, and backup...

Craig

Good discussion of the rules,

Good discussion of the rules, Rick and Tim.

The purpose of stopping within half the distance last provided when making a shove is for conductor safety. For example, if my conductor says:"Bring em back good for 20, cars" if by 12-11 car lengths I don't hear an additional command I have to stop the engine because I don't know if my conductor's radio has quit, the radio button has stuck open or he has dropped his radio/fallen off the car and may be hurt. 

Through the years I have investigated many slow speed, derailments where the engineer kept on shoving past, 1/2 the last distance reported waiting for the conductor to speak and consequently, caused a derailment. This why the cab of a locomotive is not a good place for the public to ride and carry on a conversation with the engineer. It does not matter if it's a freight train or a passenger excursion it causes the engineer to be distracted from his duties which can lead to trouble.

Barry

Hand signs vs. Radio

Switch to Hand Signals!

These days only a few of my Conductors feel comfortable about using hand signals and they are generally the better Conductors. Sadly, many that are hired out today are just warm bodies. SMH! They couldn't switch a giraffe out of a herd of elephants! 

The few guys that do use them from time to time will typically only use signals when we are either light engines or I am only a few car lengths away and have them in clear sight. For our hand signals the back up sign is making a circle in the air with your hand always turning toward your head. Think of it as someone motioning to another to come here. The larger and faster the circle the more distance to travel. Obviously you don't have to do this continuously if you have many car lengths to go. As a matter of fact there is a hand signal for number of car lengths too. When telling an Engineer to move ahead it s almost the same as you would motion to someone to go away from you. Starting with your hand near your head you move your hand until you have it stretched out at an angle above your head. Again the slower you make these moves the slower I will go. Once you need me to stop drop your hands down. Picture yourself on the ground next to the car that you want me to couple to. With both hands stretched above your head use your hands to make circles in the direction above your head. As the engine gets closer to the cars make your circle slower and slower. Right before impact drop both hands like the person standing in between two cars on the starting line of a drag race.

By the way, back in the days before 3 step protection the hand signal to go between the cars and get the air right was the not cool sign holding your thumb down or if at night with a Latern a real fast circle swish ending with the light pointing between the equipment.

So if the radio is full of chatter and my CO is getting walked on every time he tries to speak and if we are running light on a shove move or he is trying to make a coupling and I have clear sight of him He might just command "Switch to Hand Signals!"

Tim