You have me

more reasons for me to quit posting,  Fake Model Railroader here aka arm chair.  You win.

Just because

it isn't posted on MRH's forums, does not mean it didn't happen or does not exist.  These forums can be brutal, so I suspect that many prefer to NOT post their personal stories here ... 

I thought this was a post

I thought this was a post about making an actual model of an arm chair.

That's rare

Yes, but that's rare. The encouraging posts far outnumber the "brutal" posts. Have you noticed living in the human race can at times be brutal? In that sense, we're a microcosm of the human race on here.

Our mission in recent years has been to get the armchair guys up and doing some modeling - and that started with my One module challenge editorial back in the May 2013 MRH.

That has morphed into the TOMA method for doing a layout - rather than doing an entire room-filling monster, you just build a single small module/section to completion and drop some flattop staging on each end.

TOMA is low risk and small scope, the perfect opportunity for an armchair modeler to start doing the entire scope of the hobby in a short time, with minimal investment.

And as if that's not enough, we have several "one module" challenge contest layout designs we've published -- with more on the way in the coming months, and we have the TOMA video series on TMTV and coming to DVD once it's complete this fall.

And finally, this publisher is embarking on a TOMA layout of his own, and will be documenting the progress of that in MRH, on TMTV and I'm sure through MRH Store books and videos over time.

I also noticed MR and Pelle have just announced a new book on building a sectional home layout ... so the armchair guys will have to come up with some new excuses now ... (wink)

MRH is pretty nice compared to some others . . .

If you think this forum is rough, try a photography or a car forum! But I agree with your initial observation, Rick. There was one photography forum I used to frequent, and one of the most vocal and critical posters on the forum precisely fit the profile you describe: He never started his own threads, and NEVER posted any of his work. I've forgotten his BS reason for never posting any of his own photos but he sure had a lot of harsh critique of others' work, and others' opinions.

A car forum I also used to frequent divided into two camps, over . . . lower control arms! One party had designed their own control arms, and a heated debate over the merits of certain design choices ensued (I went with the Metco control arms). Half the forum was on one side, the other half on the other. It got pretty nasty, and the irony was that both combatants were very expert in their fields. Several members were banned for life.

Back to the photo forum: One of the nastiest posters was get this . . . a moderator! I wrote a lengthy comment on their survey form saying that if their goal is to reduce their membership, keep using this guy. This is one of the largest photo forums on the internet with considerable financial interests at stake with many, big-name advertisers on board (plus, their optional $50 annual membership fee got you a smokin' deal on equipment and liability insurance). This guy is only a so-so photographer (and very poor, technically), yet incredibly arrogant and condescending. For every post I would make, he would make a counter-post, just to stir the pot. Pretty much a total A-hole.

  "These forums can be

What do you mean by "these"?   Lots of other forums can be brutal but I've found the MRH forum to be quite civilized. I view criticism as useful only if the guy can offer me a way to make the subject better. I might not be able to implement the solution due to preferences,or physical, or monetary concerns but it's nice to know the options......DaveB

I like the "hobbyist" aspect

I like the "hobbyist" aspect of this forum which does not necessarily reflect model building, railroad building, or craftsmanship. While I value these things this hobby has been described as a big tent that encompasses people of all walks and interests. Not all of us have the time or money to pursue the hobby of building or collecting models (check out the Urban Dictionary that suggests we spend way too much time and money on our pursuits. The other definitions are funny as well!). 

Webster puts it plainly: 

This forum is a great source of relaxation and often a source of knowledge as well as inspiration, motivation, and admiration. Some of my best professors were as much philosophers as teachers and may have never practiced a day in their life. A trade school would have been a better bet for that but I was steered toward a place that wanted students to think beyond their limited experience with life. That is still important to me so all comments, scales, gages, and prototypes have lessons to teach. 

Armchair or workbench seem valid ways to practice the hobby imho. 

Well ....

I'll confess that I've never quite understood the blog concept as implemented on this forum.  It looks like just another thread where someone makes a post and other folks add their own thoughts as they are moved to do so.  No different from a topic that I can see.

I seldom if ever offer an opinion on what someone else is doing, except for track plans where comment has been invited.  So while I am willing to disagree on certain topics, I don't regard that as "hurtful" comments, but part of the discussion. 

Where it seems appropriate to the thread, I have posted on what I am doing layout wise.  Although I'm not sure between this forum and the MR forum what I've posted where. (for those interested, I have a 6'x12' Lionel layout that uses indoor/outdoor carpet as scenery, a 5'4" x 12' test layout that currently has an S TRAX oval layout with sidings, and a 12'x31' point to point S scale layout where tracklaying has been in progress.  All of these will be taken down for my move in a couple of months.)

Having been mostly an armchair modeler during the time my sons were growing up, I have no problem with folks joining in even if they aren't doing much else at this time.  This is a hobby and for me other things have been and continue to be more important for my time and money.

Paul

TOMA and Other Things

I can't wait... I'm very interested in TOMA, and when it's described, as a newbie, there are a lot of things that still confuse me about the concept (I don't even know where to begin with staging, or how any of that even works) I'm hoping the articles on TOMA will help a beginner like myself to understand it all, and be able to do it myself.

I'm changing states in about a year, and so I can't build the layout I want until after the move, so I've been building the buildings, and bits, and pieces of scenery aspects, and when I want to run my engines, I toss some EZ track on the bed, or on the floor, and run them for a bit... but from what I hear, I might be able to do a module, that I can take with me on the move, and then just incorporate it into the layout that I do build... or maybe, if I do my first module, and like what I've done, making more would BE the layout.

As for negativity... it does happen in every hobby. My first time in this hobby, back in the 80s, I walked away, not just because of JUST a bad marriage, or finances, or constant moving... I never lost my love of modeling, or railroads... but because it was easy to walk away, because there I was, this 20 year old guy, who, when i would talk about the hobby to folks that were in it, I would get the "you play with trains?" questions, and when I would go to the hobby shop, with my limited budget, and mention an engine I liked (my first love will always be the John Bull, and now, i finally have it!) any engine I found interesting, was always the "wrong" engine. "Don't buy that, it's crap! Tyco is for kids! Bachmann sets are not REAL modeling! Why would you want that engine, it required steel track!?!" (back then, I had a thing for a Tyco set that went so fast, it needed steel to hold onto the tracks magnetically... I still have that engine somewhere, but, i got over it) No matter what I wanted, it was wrong, and why couldn't I like the engines the other guys in the shop liked? Why was that minimum wage guy not buying $300 engines???

So walking away from the hobby was easy.

I came back to the hobby several months ago, and a lot has changed (I mean, just look at how Bachmann is seen now!) The people are a lot friendlier (or maybe I'm just older, and more likely to ignore opinions on engines? I know my taste in engines has mostly improved... back then, I was so desperate to get a working engine, that a $10 0-4-0T found at Toys R Us was good enough, because I was poor, and it was a start!)

Oh, sure... you still find negative people, but, that's everywhere... and I have learned to ignore most of it... while still paying attention to the good advice, even the advice that seems to have some snark in the tone. Am I still a bit intimidated to go to the local club? Sure, but, it's a BIG club, and seems important in the model rail community, and me feelings are my own social anxieties. I'll bet the local club is a blast! Hell, I think the local train shop owner is part of it. (I like going to Reed's here in San Diego... it's one of those shops where, if I could, I'd just hang out there all day!)

Yes, I still hear it from people when I joke about doing an entire layout with EZ Track (I still might... I have some ideas involving EZ Track, Textured spray paint, a couple of live chickens, a weed whacker, and a jar of peach preserves) and I had a conversation about a month ago with someone upset that my "Old West layout won't be a history project, so I told him it would all be Steam Punk (which, of course, Doc Phineas of Pawn Stars has dared me to do just that... maybe I will if I'm doing modules!) But the thing is, is it's my railroad, and my trains, and my enjoyment of the hobby, and folks that want to be negative about it, well... I was married once.. I can filter out voices like a PRO!

So, this newbie's advice is... enjoy the hobby, have fun talking to the folks you do, post your thoughts, ideas, photos of your trains (seriously... post them... I need to see more of what people have, and do!) and ignore any negativity! If it helps, I learned while doing stand up comedy, how to "misinterpret" an insult into a compliment, and it really drives the person insulting you CRAZY!

Also, if anyone ever asks with disdain in their voice why you are doing something a certain way... I usually answer with "to see if I can!" It isn't far off from the truth, and if they have any advice, that's when they will give it. If they were just trying to belittle you, well, they failed, and will probably just walk away.

(Seriously though, Joe? I can't wait to start seeing the build... I mean... get right in there with some details! I need to understand TOMA better! Start to finish! Can I do it with EZ Track? You know... to see if I can?)
 

Ever watched a film and not liked it?

The Messages Received Are ...

1. If you post anything at all critical of my work, you better be ready to prove you're worthy of doing so.

2. I feel guilty about having that attitude.

3. If you don't have credentials proving your opinion is valid, I'm going to consider it worthless.

If that seems harsh, I'm sorry, but boiled down, that's what the original post says.

BTW, Orville and Wilbur Wright, Leonardo da Vinci, Alexander Graham Bell and many other didn't have credentials either, until they created them via their own work.

If you think this forum..........

...........is brutal, you should try the larger O scale forum of a magazine devoted to O scale!  There, if the moderator/owner doesn't like like what you said, your post just vanishes, no explanation.  If the thread continues in the vein of your post, the thread just vanishes, no explanation! 

The other O scale forum has nicknamed it the NK (North Korea).  It's really quite comical and people actually copy and save threads to be able to refer back to them after they are "disappeared".  With all these shenanigans going on, I can't imagine they have too much time left to actually do any modelling.

Peter

One man's

I'm not sure I see how the original post in this topic is constructive an anyway.  The tone seems to be another complaint about complainers, basically.  Sure, I get it.  At one time on another forum, someone made a negative comment about me posting advise "when I didn't even have a layout".  In other words, yet another armchair model RRer acting like he knows something.  It was true for about 15 years after a divorce, I was just getting by in tiny cracker box apartments with no room even for a 4x8 plywood pacific - but I still maintained an interest in the hobby.  As it turned out, the criticism was badly timed because unknown to the guy making the critical comment, I was well into layout building. 

At the end of the day, the hobby is full of grumpy old men and there is too much negativity already; Isn't it best to resist going into the negative zone, tempting as it may be?  Resist the dark side of the Schwartz!

I disagree.  I think Simon made some points earlier which are completely legitimate.  And based on what he said, I think you yourself could probably find plenty of examples of where you have legitimate opinions on some things with which you do not have a proper credential in or be "worthy".

Look.  Often people will come in and post a photo of a box car they weathered. Sometimes to me they look awful.  Do I feel guilty about seeing what I see is an awful weathering job?  No.  But...  I don't see any purpose in saying what I think, so I say nothing.  That seems like the most thoughtful thing to do.  Now is it "kind" to go in and say that awful weathering job looks awesome?  Will they actually learn to improve if they think they have "arrived"?  Your call.  We do that with little children to build self esteem, and sometimes even grownups need self esteem building of course, but if they want an honest assessment of a weathering job, sometimes I don't think they are getting it.  But there is often too much negativity in forums so it seems wise to err on the side of being positive; anything any of us can do to mitigate it is probably good.

That's your call of course and it seems to be pervasive in the country we live in that one must have credentials or be "chopped liver".  You must have credentials or people won't listen to you. My ex-wife had a lot of opinions based on solid reasons - and to be fair, she was a smart person.  Because she wanted people to consider her opinion worthy, she was desperate to get a PhD credential so that people would see it and instantly go, oh, I should really listen here.  When our marriage broke down, mainly because we were badly matched, it basically came at a bad time so she had to let go of the PhD dream, and she took it very hard.  Why, because it was important to her that people valued her opinoin, but without those initials after her name, that would be lost.

Moral of the story to me is that you can have an opinion which is very valid, and credentials are often a piece of paper that is not worth the paper it's printed on - true in so many cases.  I have a Master of Science degree in geology, but it is almost worthless in my current field of employment, IT.  Of course everyone, individually, can decide for themselves and yes some are at an age that they are past caring, which is a coping mechanism the way I see it.  Verbalizing it only seems to be more negative vibes.

/philosopher mode

I disagree

I disagree with the assertion that, based on one's lack of initiating threads on a discussion board or maintaining a blog, that individual must be an armchair modeler. I am one of those folks. My layout is mine, and I don't have a particular need to share or validate it. I also don't see the need to blog (and by the way, when did that word become a word, much less a verb?). I don't have questions that haven't already been discussed (sometimes ad nauseam) and can't be found with a simple search. I also know that there are many many contributors to these forums who have a great deal more knowledge than I, and I generally don't have anything useful to add to a discussion. But saying that makes me an armchair modeler simply doesn't hold water. What's more, I'd opine that there are a lot of readers of this forum who are in the same boat as I.

I say this at the risk of sounding exactly like one of those critics being called out by the OP. But you really have to be careful about the conclusions you draw when you use only your own filter to sift your data.

Jim

And then there was .....

Rick, One of our best inventions is the written word, but it's also one of the worst. If we were standing face to face right now, you would be able to read my body language and know this is just a friendly conversation with a little joking around. It's not so easy to see that with the written word, then if you had a bad day, suddenly the written word seems very negative. I'm not going to say people do not lash out on this forum, but I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I hope everyone tries to add their two cents while being constructive, but we are only human and our emotions do come into play from time to time.

As for active model railroaders, again you have to remember some folks love the hobby but do not even have room, time, or cannot afford the hobby at the current time. An example is Allen McClelland. He's built one of the most famous layouts in the world, but he currently does not have a model railroad where he lives.  I do understand your point about the college professor. I had a high school physics teacher who's degree was in physical education. When I found that out, I thought, what can I learn about physics from a gym teacher? In the long run I learned a great deal in that class, so much so, I signed up for Physics II the following year with the same teacher.  

I should have saved this and

I should have saved this and submitted it to MRH magazine as a possible "Reverse Running" contribution!  Many valid points are being made!

 "Can I do it with EZ

I think the key would be making the modules the right length to match the EZ track connectors. It would probably be easier to use flextrack and just cut the rails to match whatever module length you build though......DaveB 

The term blog

From Wikipedia ...

So that's the story. I think blog is a clumsy-sounding, ugly-looking word ... but it's in popular use and generally understood now, so I use it. I personally think "journal" or "diary" are more classic words to describe what a blog is, but blog says it's uniquely on the web.

A blog thread and web forum thread don't look different on here, but we do treat them differently in how they're moderated. On a blog, the blogger owns it and should have some say over what comments they allow on "their thread" and their opinion as to discussion direction trumps everyone else.

With a forum thread, we don't consider anyone owns that thread, not even the OP (original poster) so getting hot and bothered about posts on a forum thread isn't something we consider as productive because it's not owned by anyone per se like a blog thread is.

"What do you mean by "these"?"

I was referring to electronic forums in general ... but you can see from the consternation that it created here, that MRH is certainly not exempt.

Opinions and open forums....

The original post almost makes you sound like you are an elitist Rick. I highly doubt that you are, but those are the kinds of comments that drive people away from a hobby or organization.

Do I currently have a layout? No. Have I in the past? Yes. My Grandfather brought me in to this hobby over 40 years ago. After my teenage years, I have dabbled in the hobby but have never had time and space to contribute to a layout. That may change very soon.

I don't know how many times I have read over the years of reasons why model railroaders don't belong to the NMRA. One of the reasons that seems to stick out is that there tends to be a bunch of elitists in the organization. Another seems to be location. For instance, if you live in Eastern Montana or Western North Dakota, then you are in a void where it can be an 8 hour drive to a meeting or show.

This is basically an open forum. You create a username and password and hope the moderators approve you. Maybe a closed forum of like-minded people is what you seek. Open forums draw many types of people. People who have layouts. People interested in the hobby. People who hope to build a layout. People who love to see the modeling talent of others. And, yes, even trolls.

I will add this as a for instance.... I belong to an organization of living historians / re-enactors who devote themselves to documentation of every aspect of their historic interpretation. From clothing, weapons, tools to food, cooking utensils, and personal care items, everything needs at least two sources of primary documentation. The time period focuses on 1750-1800. I have been a member of the organization for over 20 years. In a conversation on Facebook, the current head of the organization had a picture posted and someone commented about his "costume." He got all bent out of shape and was basically attacking the individual because his documented clothing was not a costume. He likes to take pride in the fact that he does not used period inappropriate words. I chimed in that the clothing he wore was in fact a costume and that the clothing one wears everyday, today and even back then, is one's costume. I even provided a dictionary reference to the word from the 18th century. That was when he started attacking me, a long time member of the organization. He basically said that my opinions were worthless because I "don't do anything in the hobby anyway, and I should just shut up and stay at home changing shitty diapers." I moved to the Western States in 2013. I haven't been back East for an event since then. Even to attend a western event, it is a 12 hour trip. I stay at home to raise my 2 year old daughter and would sooner devote time to family right now than galavant all over the country. The head of the organization apparently has the where-with-all that he can take off at the drop of a hat and fly from Idaho to a one day event back East. I have never met a more arrogant, stubborn-headed ass in all my life. I informed the rest of the Board of Officers of what transpired and let them know that as of December 31, 2017; I will no longer be a dues paying member of the organization until this person is gone.

So, you see, it wouldn't matter if you are in an open group or a closed, limited group; you are going to find some overzealous a-hole that will rub you the wrong way.

"Surely we don't need to have

    I think the key to productive criticism is separating personal opinion from factual information. If I post a photo of a model it's helpful to have someone point out the technical errors in my modeling but not useful if they just say they don't like the era or railroad I chose to model. This also applies to modeling goals and philosophies, one might be trying to model a prototype scene accurately or a fantasy scene capturing a certain mood or impression. There's positive criticism that could be offered to either and there's also negative criticisms to avoid. The folks here on MRH forum seem pretty good at the positive aspects in my experience.

    As for armchair modelers in general  I think they are very nice to have around, they often buy lots of stuff that helps keep the supply chain moving and they also end up selling it later so we have an active secondary market.....DaveB  

sometimes....

Sometimes a newb's set of eyes might have a new idea or knowledge of a new product.

Actual experience helps

Experience...

Here's what works for me...* When a post contains the phrase, "Here's what works for me..." I know that the poster is talking about their experience, so I will take greater note. But that doesn't mean that someone without experience can't have a good idea, too. * For the record, as well as being a user of forums and an occasional blogger, I have served as a moderator on one of the larger bulletin boards within the hobby, and set another one up. And what works for me, is people sharing their genuine experience of modelling is what makes for a happy forum... Share and enjoy, Simon