Are the gears lubed?

Are the gears lubed?

Fwd/Bkwd

Dear ???

Any clues as to what the "noise" is?
- Grinding? (Low constant "grrrrr" that pitch with track speed?)
- Rhythmic Gring? (Low "grrrRRRrrrRRRrrr" that changes rate of "rrrRRRrrrRRRrrr" with track speed?)
- Clicking? (With many "clicks" per wheel rev)
- Clicking? (with only 1 or 2 "clicks" per wheel rev)

The most-likely cause of "noise in one direction, none in the other" is the Worm and Motor shaft being pulled fore/aft depending on the direction of travel,
(as worm + motor-shafts typically move some-ammount fore-aft when initially "taking up the slack" from a direction-change).

Look for visual signs of interference/swiping/grinding of the worm against ???
(IE as if it has moved _away_ from the motor)

or against the motor body 
(IE as if the worm has moved _towards_ the motor body).

HINT! following the OP diagram,
the motor shaft will be forced in this direction,
IE toward the REAR of the loco,
when the wheels are rotating for Forward motion.

Also consider that it may not be the worm itself that is "hitting something",
but the internals of the motor
(Armature, commutator)

moving out-of-alignment
(as the worm and motor-shaft move fore-aft when initially "taking up the slack" from a direction-change),
and hitting something _inside_ the motor body/casing.

Stopping the motor-shaft/worm "migrating rearwards" towards the motor-body/loco-cab/rear-of-the-loco will be tricky,

I would be tempted to try a styrene shim or packing washer 
(with the tiniest bit of graphite dry-lube on the worm-side surface),
between the rear of the worm and the motor-body/front bearing...

Rest assured that patience, methodical testing and direct observation will identify this issue...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PS I don't instinctively suspect the idler gear itself, _unless_ we can do the test where:
- the driven axle is removed from the "system"
- and the motor is driving _only_ the Worm-gear and idler.

If that makes noise, then OK, the Idler may be part of the cause...
(and checking _all_ gears and worms for flash/burrs really is "mech maintanence 101"),

...however, until said test (entire geartrain _minus_ the driven-axle/axle-gear and associated mechanism)
is performed, the stated test sequence has not isolated / binary-divided

- the effects of the cumulative friction of the geartrain+locomotive mech on the motor/worm-shaft alignment
(and the wheels/valvegear "mech" is the sub-assembly with the highest-count of friction-adding bearing-surfaces and parts)

and

- the movement/alignment of the idler gear in it's position.

I agree with Tim

It is likely that the gear is moving against the side when it turns.  The forward rotation is finding more surface than the rear rotation.  It may be a burr on that side.  It may be difficult to see.   A good gear oil or grease will help with this.  For these models, a plastic friendly light viscosity oil is probably best. A grease has enough viscosity to load the motor with the same benefit.

Thanks guys

You've given me a few things to think about.

There's plenty of lube, so I don't think that's the problem, although the grease could be hiding some imperfection in the gears. I might clean it all up and have a closer look.

As for the type of sound, it certainly sounds gear related, getting louder and faster with the speed of the loco. I couldn't find any obvious signs of wear in the gear train, but the loco hasn't run much yet. Unfortunately, because the weight is also the support for the gears there is no way of seeing them when they run. Other that the idler gear peaking out of a slot on the bottom of the weight they are completely encapsulated. I can see the flywheel, however, as it sticks out of the weight on the other side of the motor, and there is almost no lateral movement of the shaft when the motor changes direction.

I have isolated the axle gear from the rest of the drive train as the motor, worm,reduction and idler gear held in place by the cast weight can be run separately from the frame. But now that you said it I'm not sure I ran that assembly in both directions when testing it. I did put a little load on it using my finger against the idler gear as the loco runs quietly when it is up on blocks.

At any rate, it's getting late but I now have a few more things to try, tomorrow, after work.

AAAAARRRRGG!!

Had another look at the thing today and decided that the worm might be rubbing on the side of the weight. A slight tap moved the gear over a bit and I tried to reassemble it. Broke several wires off in the process and spent the next 4 hours trying to get the wiring back the way it was. I love the way Bachmann uses the NMRA wire colours but doesn't use the code correctly. Also no documentation either.

Long story, even longer, I finally got the power working again and it's louder that before!! I had to put the stupid thing aside or I was surely going to try to fix it with a sledge hammer.

How many hours on it?

   Are you sure it's broken in?  If it hasn't been broken in it might need more hours to quiet down. I've even heard of old engines that needed to be run a while with toothpaste or lapping compound instead of grease before they got quiet....DaveB 

@Rick........

I think the Prof is right about the worn/gear alignment. See if you can move the worm on the shaft a tiny bit fore and aft to get it quiet in both directions or a washer on the shaft to prevent too much back and forth movement.  One trick I use to quiet drive noise is to use thin rubber washers anywhere the drive line including motor is attached to the chassis.  This won't cure your alignment issue but might make it a little better. 

Peter

I think it is the motor.

After tasking it all apart again and going over every little piece, I discovered the the motor seems awfully stiff. Not cogging, per se, but much stiffer that it should be. I'd almost wager that the shaft is a little bent. Perhaps when I slid the worm over I introduced, or worsened, this. When I take the motor out of the equation everything rolls smooth as a dream.

A new motor assembly can be had but for almost the same price I paid for the whole loco! The 4-6-0s are really to big for my railway anyway, so I think I might just give up on this one. Besides I have parts for a small 2-8-0 and a mogul that I could work on assembling. I just tackled the darn ten wheeler because I thought it would be a relatively easy fix. Boy was I wrong!!

By the way, There are two other 4-6-0s of the same type, owned by others, that run on my railway and they both run just fine. I think I just got a dud.

Anyway... it's Friday, I've had enough, so I'm off to find a beer with my name on it. 

Thank you all, but I'm Moving on...

I appreciate all the help. While I'm sure I've found the problem, my heart's just not into fixing it right now.

The 4-6-0 has been packed up in a bin and relegated to to the land of "ongoing projects"

While there I pulled out the 2-6-0 bin and had a look see. This is now my new project.

When I got it, from a friend, it was literally a bag of parts. I went through them all this morning and all the important bits are there. It was originally a red and green Coca Cola Christmas train that somebody had started to paint black, poorly I might add, the paint will all have to come off. luckily it's not adhered well and comes off easily.

Instead of the straight cylindrical boiler, I'm making this one a wagon top one just to be a little different. The first course is on and I have to cut out the funny little conical piece to blend it into the existing boiler.

Once I get the paint off the frame, and new paint applied, I'll assemble the mechanism... Hopefully this one runs quietly!!

New or broken in?

I re-read this and couldn't see if this was a relatively new loco or was used.

I only run ten-wheelers on my layout, so I was wondering what was causing this myself, in case I ever encounter it.

Frankly, I'm not overly keen on taking one apart...

Lee

I've had the loco for years, it's just always been a growler.

They're not to difficult to take apart. The hardest part is at the beginning when you have to prise out a bunch of piping, some of which is glued into their respective holes. This can be a bit tricky, trying to remove only the pipe you want and not suddenly stripping off half the details! After that it just unscrewing things.

The other guys 4-6-0s are still running fine so I don't think it a problem associated with old age.

extrapolating experience from G gauge Bachmann loco

The Professor pretty well covered the potential drive train problems to check for. One other item: these locos rely on the side rods to transmit power from the gear-driven axle to the other drive axles. If any driver wheels have worked loose from the axles and "quartering" messed up, the mechanism can bind. Not sure if this could be more of a problem in one direction than another.

I encountered that problem on a Bachmann G gauge 4-6-0 loco that I worked on for a friend a few Christmases ago. Overall the construction seemed not-too-robust with plastic axles that had come loose, probably aggravated by wheel binding on curves that were really tight for the rigid wheelbase of the loco. I re-quartered and fixed the loose axles with super glue and it worked OK on a straight test track, but the guy brought it back with the same problem after running it on curves.

I've encountered split plastic axle gears on some HO locos, something else to look for. That generally causes a distinctive clicking noise.

Bachmann... can't live with 'em..

I run 4 Bachmann HO steamers and have two that are noisy as sin. One I haven't yet disassembled, but when I do I have a new NWSL axle gear waiting. Hopefully that will reduce the noise. They are beautiful looking locomotives, but the gears are crap, which is highly unfortunate.

Noise going forward

Rick, it's dollars to doughnuts that your noise is because of end float in the motor shaft, not where the worm is actually located on the shaft.

This is a very common problem unless end thrust on the motor shaft is properly controlled or alternatively, taken out of the equation. You can do this by having a sliding joint between the motor and gearbox shafts. Your graphic shows no such joint so that option is out.

You don't show where any of the bearings are but often the gearbox has bearings either side of the worm, and included with these are thrust washers. If this is the case you need to make sure that they and not the motor bearings are controlling the motor shaft end float. In other words, that the motor shaft cannot reach the full extent of its float in either direction.

How you do that I'm not sure because I don't know how the motor or gearbox are mounted, but one of them may need to be moved closer to the other or further away.

If you can't actually see what's going on then it will be a matter of experimentation to find what works.

Peter

Noisy loco.

Another item to check is the play there is in the motor shaft as reverse might by good where forward there is just a little excessive play. I have couple of Bachmann locos and had the same problem. Once you get  noisy loco you need to have a engineering degree to solve the problem  Also if there is play in the shaft them your worm could be out of alignment. Aligning the worm will be tedious and frustrating.. Good luck

Engineering degree not needed

Dear Bobby,

I'm sorry, but I disagree strongly. If the modeller is capable of getting the shell off the loco without damage,
then they likely have all the mechanical aptitude required to diagnose, identify, and correct the vast majority of common "noisy mech" issues.

The thing that many modellers have not developed is the patient methodical observation of the mechanism in-operation, and the overcoming of the sheer "I can't do that" self-defeating attitude...

We're not talking rocket surgery here, the root-cause of a noisy loco can be identified, isolated, and rectified...
(...and your fellow modellers are always here to help!)

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Thanks All

This is an old thread and I had forgotten about it so forgive my slow response.

The long and the short of it is that we have retired the ten wheelers on the R&T, they're just a tad to big for my Rwy. Long overhangs and a pilot trucks that like to jump the rails. Plus, aesthetically they just look to big for our short trains. As far as getting her to run smooth, I'm sure if I dicked around with it long enough I could get 'er to run fine but, quite frankly, I've got better things to do.

Noisy 0n30 4-6-0

Hey Rick

I share your frustration.

My 4-6-0 runs fine in forward, but a little hesitant in reverse. But - run the loco in reverse down a grade then it really starts to  make a noise and surge.

Also with no load running in either direction round the layout there is no problem.

Sometimes this hobby can really piss me off.

Scotch  time for contemplation is close.

Be Well All

Russell

Martini

Hey Russell,

I've got a little placard in my kitchen,...'Who needs THERAPY when you've got a Martini"

Cheers Brian - I have a

Cheers Brian - I have a Scotch on the workbench when I'm soldering.

A great place to dunk your fingers if you burn them!

Remember the Shay surging problem??

Hi Rick, Russell,

Remember back in the old Conspiracy days when the On30 Shays first came out they had a similar downhill surging problem? The problem was traced to too much end float in the bevel gears at the bogie that transferred power to the gears on the wheels. This caused the bevel gears to skip under load when heading down hill. The cure was to shim the end float out of these shafts with simple styrene shims. This kept the bevel gears hard in mesh and prevented the surging. 

I'm wondering if too much end float at the motor or elsewhere in the drive train is allowing something similar to happen with your 4-6-0's? The clue was in the downhill surging and the different forward/reverse performance. 

On the Shay you could see the longitudinal movement in these shafts at the bogie who you changed direction if you looked for it, 

Noisy 0n30 4-6-0

Hi Rick

Are you any closer to resolving your surging loco problem?

After having had yet another surgery to remove yet another tumour from my bowel, I have plenty of recuperating time to ponder this. I'm also pondering retirement in the near future so the two may become entwined.

The reason that prodded me to ask this was that I recently bought a MMW 0n30 C19 and a B'mann 4-6-0 at the unbelievable price of $NZ550!!! Yup you read correctly 550 NZ dollars.

The C19 runs like a Swiss watch while the 4-6-0 not so well.

I intend to work on this project soonish - but not so much as my wife and I are celebrating out 50th wedding anniversary this month and I know the limits of train time v wife time.

Stay Well All

Nice find Russell

I'd love to get a Mountain Models C-16 or 19 but they seem pretty rare these days.

Happy anniversary by the way.

In answer to your question... No I've never fixed the problem with the 4-6-0. Truth be told they were a little big for my Rwy. so it is residing in a box at the moment. Which I suppose is a "fix" of sorts. It runs real quite in the box!