Dave K skiloff

After receiving my NMRA bulletin this morning and reading president Charlie Getz's discussion of Caboose Hobbies closing, I felt compelled to write a response.  First, here is a summary of what Mr. Getz wrote:

Quote:
Did you notice that the 2017 Walthers catalog combines HO-N-Z in one volume?  Some may celebrate this as it presents more scale options, but this also is another example of the contraction of the hobby.  There simply is not enough product to justify two catalogs, as in past years.  Walthers, like Caboose, is a seminal part of the hobby industry and while far from closing, is an example of changes in the industry. 
 
The future of Walthers, Caboose-style shops, and the NMRA resides in your hands.  For every product you buy online to save a dollar, you contribute to the Caboose closing or the Walthers contraction.  For every new member you ignore at an event or fail to make welcome, you doom the NMRA.  In reality, the answer to the contracting hobby lies with us all.

And my response that I just sent to him:

I find your commentary from the latest bulletin troubling.  Not because of the closure of Caboose Hobbies, but your continued insistence that the hobby is in a state of contraction using the evidence of Caboose closing and Walthers' catalogs becoming one.  This is looking at a few facts and making broad assumptions of them without really looking at many other facts out there.  Caboose closing and Walthers' catalogs is not a sign of the hobby dying - it is a sign, like the world at large, that things are changing.  It is very frustrating when people in your position in the hobby paint it as dying because of change, but fail to acknowledge or understand that change, perhaps, is renewal, not death.  Is the hobby of the 50s and 60s dying?  Yes, indeed.  Is the hobby of model railroading dying?  Absolutely not! 

 
In fact, there are many signs that we are in a new era of growth for the hobby.  The current range of products has never been of higher quality, and a broad range of affordable options are still out there for those entering the hobby.  The options available to modelers is second to none in terms of how they want to enjoy the hobby - scratch building, kits, or built-ups.  The real problem is, this is seen by many of the old guard as a negative, because it isn't "as it used to be."  Everything in the world is changing, so why would model railroading expect to be static?  And in fact, if it doesn't change, I would say THAT is the bigger concern, because failing to change (like so many in the hobby) is what will kill businesses.  Just ask Kodak or Polaroid or Tower Records or Montgomery Ward or Woolworth's.
 
In reality, I feel that the most damage done to this hobby is done by it's leaders who continually trumpet it's death and make statements, such as you made in a newspaper article in the past year that suggested young people are only interested in their phones.  THAT is the kind of nonsense generalization that will drive young people from the hobby.  In fact, there are probably the same proportion of young people in the hobby today than there were decades ago, but they enter the hobby differently.  But this is not understood by leaders, such as yourself, and through this lack of understanding, you inadvertently do damage to the hobby you are trying to protect.
 
The real issue, I believe, for the NMRA is it's shrinking base of members.  Let's be clear - this is mostly an NMRA problem, not a hobby problem.  Why is the NMRA membership sinking?  In many ways it's because of these out-of-touch comments by it's leadership.  Who wants to join an association that openly generalizes about young people and their cellphone addictions?  Or one that suggests internet shopping is bad for the hobby?  The failure of the NMRA is it's failure to change with the world and understand the world it operates in.  But that doesn't seem to be understood - it's simply blamed on the internet and young people that only care about their cell phones, which are both patently false.  
 
I hope the NMRA will succeed for the long term, because I believe the hobby is better with it than without it, but there needs to be a sea change in how the NMRA leadership views the world in which we live and the way the hobby is evolving.

Dave
Playing around in HO and N scale since 1976

Reply 0
sjconrail

Great Response!

Absolutely fantastic response. I cringe now every time I see that bulletin to see what new, ridiculous statement Charlie is going to make. I just hope his lack of foresight into how the hobby is changing doesn't hinder the NMRA,  and to a larger extent the past organizational and standard efforts the NMRA has done, moving forward and the hobby begins to fracture.

Reply 0
MLW

You nailed it

Very good response skiloff Bravo!

Oh and this  statement from Charlie Getz is ridiculous

Quote:

 For every product you buy online to save a dollar, you contribute to the Caboose closing or the Walthers contraction

How I spend my hobby money is my business, however I do not see the logic to spend more for the sake of a hobby shop that does not keep up with the changing times and that is not competitive.  Competition is what competition does. Frankly if a hobby shop is closing it has failed to adapt, innovate and change with the times.

Oh let's not talk about the newer hobby shop that have open, that may detract from the doomsday messages.

In the last 10 years I have seen new manufacturer appeared, with younger blood, better and newer, read-never produce before, product that are doing just fine thank you very much. I have also seen more and younger people join our Ops group.

Doomsday indeed...

Reply 0
pschmidt700

Excellent response!

Very reasoned and well-expressed, Skiloff. I rejoined the NMRA earlier this summer. This latest bleating from Charlie Getz plainly demonstrates to me that he is out of touch, over his head and needs to step down -- today would be preferable.
Reply 0
Racenviper

Wait a second....

Caboose Hobbies also has internet sells.

Reply 0
JAMES DEWAR

Buying by mail not new

Seems to be a wild assumption that buying by mail is a recent new phenomenon that is to the detriment of the hobby and contributing to closures and contractions..

The Model Railroader back in the 80's and probably before that used to be full of ads from stores getting you to buy by mail.

The only thing that has changed is we browse the stores online instead of in the magazines.

Caboose Hobbies and Walthers both had/have a good online presence.

Never before have we had such good product, new products, and new manufacturers.

Model railroading is in a good place, stop talking it down Mt Getz, too many negatives lets be positive.

 

Reply 0
Captain Mike

Don't be Stuck on the old Oval Track, Branch Out!

Skiloff's comments hit the nail on the head. I do not think the hobby is dying either. The upgrades in equipment and almost all aspects of the hobby are generating more fun and enjoyment for those in the hobby. As for buying online, that I see is a blessing. It allows for many more products to be available to all of us who are a long way from a hobby shop or shops that have a very limited inventory. Online shopping is not only the future but a need for many active modelers. Store fronts cost a lot of money to operate and many of our best new products come from basement or garage builders who can not afford a store front, or want one.

Hobby shops often rely on the impulse buyer who comes in and sees something they like and buy it. Or also do repair work for customers. As I am typing this I am about to call a supplier and order almost $300 of items I need for a project I am working on for the module layout. No hobby shop would have in stock most of the items I need. The order has many different items and a phone call will be easier that doing it online, or I would, I'm just lazy I guess. But I went online to make up the list I will be calling in.

Those that think the hobby is dying, are the very people who need to build module layouts and take them around to spread the word about how much fun model railroading can be. Invite scout troops to visit their home layouts, even be active with their layout on Facebook, and connect with their community that they are even there. Many great layouts are seen by very few people and sort of like preaching to the choir, the people that see it are already active in the hobby. My Porcupine Valley module layout in located in our publishing office and I invite all our visitors to see the operation. When they leave, they have a picture in their mind, when they read a story I write about life in the Porcupine Valley for our readers. It is all part of the fun. Thanks Skiloff for taking a stand and all others that feel the same way. 

Captain Mike

Reply 0
MikeM

I wonder if Charlie actually spoke to Walthers

As one who has purchased the Walthers catalog every year for more years than I care to count, the reduction to a single catalog for all scales is not unexpected but may lead me to stop getting it.  I can't afford to model in more than one scale and the number of items I purchase that are not HO could probably be counted using the fingers on one hand and still have 5 left over.

My LHS stopped selling the catalog a few years ago because nobody was buying them, and that's a totally different issue than how much other merchandise he gets through them.  The decline in the catalog is much more likely to be due to the costs of publishing and shipping such a monster book for a limited audience plus the shift I suspect many have made to using the Walthers website (probably particularly true of younger modelers who have a better use for the $$ the catalog cost them).

I put the Walthers catalog into the same category as the old Lionel catalogs, a dream book and handy reference to browse through for ideas; today I do essentially the same thing using the sponsor listings in MRH (wish there were more), linking to individual websites for in-depth detail no catalog could ever offer (when was the last time you watched a demo video embedded in a catalog?).

To say that Walthers is contracting would be much better answered by tracking the number of different items they stock (or attempt to).  Their own website describes the latest catalog as having "Thousands of NEW products added" which doesn't sound like contraction to me.  Tracking the health of the hobby by the fate of the catalog is dicey; even tracking it by the number of items Walthers carries has issues (not everyone sells through them).  I don't think you can judge the hobby's health by this kind of statistic or any other simplistic statistic.  Do I have a better way?  No, unfortunately...

I'm reminded of an old joke I used when teaching statistics years ago:  Three statisticians went deer hunting, creeping silently through the woods in search of their prey.  When they spotted a large buck they immediately hid behind a big rock and prepared to fire.  The first statistician's shot struck a large tree a few feet to the left of the deer; the second statistician's shot also missed, striking another tree a few feet to the right of the deer.  The third statistician jumped to his feet shouting "We got him!!!"...

MikeM

Reply 0
ctxmf74

"Model railroading is in a

Quote:

"Model railroading is in a good place, stop talking it down Mt Getz, too many negatives lets be positive."

     It's all relative and depends on what you call good. I liked it a lot better when I had a fully stocked train shop a half mile away and another three miles beyond. I think it's a lot better to be able to go buy a detail part or a decal or some paint when you need it instead of having to order it ahead of time. I can't blame kids for not being as interested in trains as we were in the 50's since the trains don't run here anymore, but I do agree with Getz that they'd be better off enjoying the world around them instead of walking down the street fixated on a 3 inch screen......DaveB

Reply 0
Kevin Rowbotham

Online Shopping

Well said Dave!

If I stop shopping online, most of my hobbies are dead, not just model railroading. Forget it Charlie, online shopping is here to stay!

Without a serious attitude adjustment in the organization and some obvious proof of value added for me through an NMRA membership, I will never consider joining the NMRA.

The current spokesperson is a PR nightmare at best, lol

Regards,

~Kevin

Appreciating Modeling In All Scales but majoring in HO!

Not everybody likes me, luckily not everybody matters.

Reply 0
joef

What about electronics - are they dying?

Radio Shack stores are closing, they're dying out, too. Does that mean electronics is dying as an industry? Or is it the OLD WAYS are dying out, to be replaced by NEW WAYS?

Instead of focusing on the old ways that are dying, ask yourself what are the new trends likely to re-invigorate the modeling hobby as they come to full flower - like 3D printing (just to name one - there are many more if you'll just look).

Stop looking through the wrong end of the binoculars and things will look a lot bigger.

Joe Fugate​
Publisher, Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine

[siskiyouBtn]

Read my blog

Reply 0
wp8thsub

Yup

Quote:

For every product you buy online to save a dollar, you contribute to the Caboose closing or the Walthers contraction.  For every new member you ignore at an event or fail to make welcome, you doom the NMRA.  In reality, the answer to the contracting hobby lies with us all.

It's more of the same thinking we've seen for years.  The status quo ante was awesome, and everything that continues to change or challenge it must be stopped.  I am beyond sick of the tired lament about how the hobby is declining just because things aren't how they used to be.  

Some of this nonsense comes across like worrying about how the demise of Blockbuster and Hollywood Video translates to a decline in watching movies at home.  Maybe Getz can write a column about how every time you watch Netflix and Hulu you contribute to the closure of video rental outlets.  Plus, he can remind us to stop buying automobiles so we don't lose any more local buggy shops.

The blame for Caboose Hobbies closing shouldn't solely be directed at internet sales.  Neighborhood gentrification, property values, surrounding development... all those things played a role.  

Hand wringing over Walthers contraction likewise should be tempered by looking at the business models of the various manufacturers, and whether stocking product through Walthers (or any middle man) makes sense for them.  For many of today's manufacturers, the product will be announced and sold out before the next catalog is printed, so why bother listing it?  Production and distribution is different than it used to be, but manufacturers apparently should go backward so we can have thicker catalogs.

Let's not understand change, or heaven forbid embrace it.  Let's ignore all the web forums where hobbyists connect and share.  Let's pretend Facebook is a passing fad, and forget about all those modelers sharing freight car history, weathering techniques, and photos galore of their new purchases and projects.  Let's not consider how modern smart retailers like Spring Creek might just be eating Walthers' and Caboose's lunch.  Let's just continue to be grumpy old dudes waxing nostalgic about the old days, and completely miss how things may be better than ever.

Rob Spangler MRH Blog

Reply 0
Barry Rosier bsrosier

How to fix the NMRA

Folks,

I agree with everything stated here. The issue has been the NMRA's willingness to come into a modern world with it's offerings. The only way to address this is for new people to join and be active, and vote for their leadership. There are groups out online trying new ideas out and having success. The NMRA can too. Be active with your local region. I participate in the New Jersey and Philadelphia region. Get involved!

Barry Rosier
​YouTube Model Builders Team Member
NMRA Member #159585 00
PRR T&HS Member #9218
Barry Rosier
Strasburg Model Railroad
NMRA Member
Reply 0
RSeiler

I cringed a bit too...

I usually ignore these sorts of threads, but I have to admit that when I read Charlie's message this morning in the NMRA Bulletin, I too was going back and forth between cringing and laughing. Bemoaning internet sales as if that is somehow bad for the hobby. Oh no, I can order anything that I want, at any time of the day, from my house or office, and have it quickly shipped right to my door, and all for less money than I would have had to pay a few years ago. The horror! That is sure to kill the hobby. Its like a guy mourning the passing of the horse-and-buggy saying, "well there goes the freedom of personal transportation" as cars took their place. The online community, far from killing the hobby, is doing more to grow it than anything else could ever hope to. I laughed out loud at the announcement of the NMRA Facebook page. That's great, but talk about being late to the party! My kids have already moved on from FB. Better late than never, but just wow. 

Randy

Randy

Cincinnati West -  B&O/PC  Summer 1975

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/17997

Reply 0
David Calhoun

The King Has No Clothes!

You hit the nail on the head. There are so many choices these days that it is hard to keep up. Whatever you might need or try to find, the Internet and it's associated sales like Amazon and Shapeways etc. is the future of which everyone refers to.

And if the number of "younger dads and their kids" who visit our club open houses (especially at Christmas) are any indication, the the hobby is merely changing with the times. More often than not, I hear young dads remark that their father had one just like that - - and then proceed to buy several raffle tickets for the train sets we offer as incentives along with our flyers with out web site, times of operation and location.

The only thing "dead" is negative thinking.

Chief Operating Officer

The Greater Nickel Plate

Reply 0
pschmidt700

Fix the NMRA?

Fix the leadership, no beating around the bush. So how does an NMRA member call for a vote of no-confidence in the current president? I suppose the NMRA by-laws prevent such a proposal, since they are likely written to protect incumbent NMRA officers during their terms.
Reply 0
Greg Williams GregW66

But THEY have it all together

Charlie also wrote: 

Quote:

In the November issue of NMRA Magazine, I will expand on this topic but
also address the very different situation overseas. There the hobby is
thriving and shows it can here also. 

Why does he think things are so much different, and better, overseas? I am so tired of "The Hobby is Dying" posts. I've been reading them for 40 years. 

Greg Williams
Superintendent - Eastern Canada Division - NMRA
Reply 0
nursemedic97

Caboose Hobbies

I would also add that Caboose Hobbies closing wasn't precipitated by a lack of sales; the landlord of the building decided to sell the property out from under them. In case you hadn't heard, Denver is in the middle of a housing/real estate boom, and CH is on a prime piece of real estate on one of the most heavily traveled streets in the Denver area. This is the first I'd heard they were closing, they were supposedly going to relocate. I suppose with the aforementioned price of real estate, they probably decided it was too expensive and decided to retire rather than relocate. 

Mike in CO

Reply 0
THillebrant

Why Bother?

  bsrosier wrote:  "The only way to address this is for new people to join and be active, and vote for their leadership. There are groups out online trying new ideas out and having success. The NMRA can too. . . . Get involved!"

That makes no sense to me.  If it's our government that's messed up, we have little choice (other than immigrating to Sweden or wherever) than getting more involved if we want to bring about change.  But the NMRA is not our government.

The NMRA offers a service to a very small segment of society.  If that service is no longer useful to model railroaders, why spend the energy trying to re-direct its "organizational momentum"?  Why not start out fresh?  If we really need a national-level organization (which I question), then someone should create a new one, demonstrate why the service offered is superior to the NMRA's, and then let the market decide which is best.

Right now, I'm voting "No Confidence" in the NMRA and its so-called leadership with my pocketbook by not joining.  When they, or a newer competing organization, can show me that their service is useful to me, then I will join.

Tom

Reply 0
p51

The Model Railroader back in

Quote:

The Model Railroader back in the 80's and probably before that used to be full of ads from stores getting you to buy by mail.

Exactly. Everyone recalls the 2 (or more) page ads that every issue of MR had for Trainworld right past the table of contents. Plenty of people were doing mail order way back in the day. I seem to recall people in the magazines decrying that, too, at the time.

Quote:

The online community, far from killing the hobby, is doing more to grow it than anything else could ever hope to.

I agree with this, too. Think of all the people who order stuff because of the ease of doing so, who never had a hobby shop near them that they could visit to order (and even back in the day, not every hobby shop had every single thing you wanted). No, it's silly to think that internet sales means anything other than MORE people getting the stuff than ever before!

Heck, I never lived near any decent hobby shop growing up, so I can't decry the loss of something I never had until well into my adult years when I finally moved to a region that had a few halfway-decent hobby shops.

But unless I'm wrong, don't a lot of these online vendors get their stuff through Walthers anyway? But even if they don't, you cannot blame people for wanting to save money, especially in an era where many things cost proportionately more than they used to, as well as many things they have to have now that never existed back in the day (such as internet service if you have kids in school, stuff like that).

I never bought anything from Caboose hobbies for one primary reason: I DON'T LIVE IN COLORADO, and have never lived anywhere near there! Heck, I've only ever passed through the Denver area once in my life, back when Gary Coleman still worked there. I did stop there but I had just left the hobby and wouldn't be back until just a few years ago. I looked but couldn't find anything I couldn't live without. So I'm to blame for them going under? In a pig's eye! They opened, went on for years, and then folded completely unaware of my existence the entire time.

Frankly, I'm getting really tired of being told I somehow contribute to the 'death' of a hobby that never was going to be as popular as it once was back in the 'golden era.' And how chuckleheads like this can't see that model trains will never be as popular as they once were make me wonder if perhaps THEY are far more responsible for maybe a little more than the expected decline (by pointing fingers like this and also alienating the youth we'd all like to see get into this) than I ever could be by buying online every now and then.

Reply 0
TomO

Does he live in his man cave?

Mr. Getz needs to get out of an isolated existence and come into the model train world. Just last month, I purchased from a LHS in Madison, Wi. as a walk in. I purchased from a hobby shop on line that is 70 miles away, Walters that is 80 miles away and Trainlife.com on line from Utah. My Rivet Counter tanks cars were delivered via ScaleTrains.com from an on-line sale in July. I contribute to keeping the hobby healthy.

I am 63 and have heard since my 1st MR magazine in the 60's that the hobby is getting older/dying/not the same. Since we are basically re-hashing old news about the NMRA president, I'll mention again, the hobby is doing great but YES it has changed. IMO for the better, it is not dying.

I know many enlightened NMRA members but I am not one. I admire what has been achieved in the past, but I will not financially support them. His letter to his membership just keeps reinforcing the correctness of my decision.

Tom

TomO in Wisconsin

It is OK to not be OK

Visit the Wisconsin River Valley and Terminal Railroad in HO scale

on Facebook

Reply 0
AJKleipass

For every product you buy

Quote:

For every product you buy online to save a dollar, you contribute to the Caboose closing or the Walthers contraction.

Um... what if the online shopping I do is on the Walthers' website??? *scratches head* And wasn't the point of ads in magazines (and let's go all the way back to the dark ages of the pre-Internet world) to get people to mail order and maybe save a few bucks over their local store - if they even had a local store?

I've never been a member of NMRA, though over the past 30+ years I've been in the hobby I have considered joining it a couple of times. What always kept me from doing so was the lack of an active chapter in my hometown - until this past March I lived my whole life - 44 years - in this tiny Atlantic coastal town called New York City, where nothing ever interesting happened. *ahem* Relying on commuter railroads and local bus or taxi to get to meetings or events in New Jersey or Long Island was not my idea of fun - and I am a foamer!!!

Now that I am living near St. Louis (and finally learning to drive), I *might* once again consider getting involved with the various NMRA groups in the region. But I will admit that Mr. Getz's remarks - as I have heard related here and elsewhere - do give me pause. Hopefully his opinions aren't shared on the local level.

Lastly, for most of my time in the hobby (1985 to present), I frequented my local hobby shops nearly exclusively. The exception being a rare mail order to Walthers, Kalmbach, or Carstens. If the local hobby shops didn't have something, I didn't get it. The internet was slow in changing that for me, but in embracing it, my view of the hobby has changed. The friendships that I have made, the resources I have available to me (like MRH and TmTV), and the purchasing options - especially for things like scratch building supplies - something that my local hobby shop Train World has never stocked - have greatly increased my investment in the hobby on a personal level, on a skills level, and on a monetary level...... especially on the monetary one!

The hobby is contracting??? I call bull**** on that one! Right now on eBay there are nearly 668,000 listings in the model trains section, from 1 1/2" scale live steamers all the way down to T-scale (1:450 / 1:480) models. If that is contracting, I'm not sure my wallet could survive an expanding hobby!

 

 

AJ Kleipass

Proto-freelance modeling the Tri-State System c.1942
The layout is based upon the operations of the Delaware Valley Railway,
the New York, Susquehanna & Western, the Wilkes-Barre & Eastern,
the Middletown & Unionville, and the New York, Ontario & Western.

 

Reply 0
Douglas Meyer

I have stayed out of recent

I have stayed out of recent NMRA related posts and topics but Tthis kind of editorial is a classic example of how out of touch with the typical hobbyists, the hobby in general and today's reality the leadership of the NMRA has gotten.  I and others have over the years tried to change this downward spiral but I think this pretty much just proved that the NMRA needs a major overhaul.

As the idea of spending more to "support" a failing business model just because it is the way it was and some folks cannot handle change.  This is a classic example of the NMRA leadership and "elite" living in a different world where apparently money is not important.  This goes hand in hand with the increased costs of NMRA membership, increased costs of the convention, (including the convention in England) and other examples of the NMRA leadership and it's supporters not understanding the value of a dollar.

As for the bias against technology and youth by the NMRA leadership, this trend has got to stop.

And the idea that everything is better overseas for the hobby and the comment that he will address this next month added to the recent decision to hold the second ever overseas convention makes you wonder what the NMRA leadership is thinking?

-Doug M

Reply 0
THillebrant

Maybe Mr. Getz . . . .

. . . should just stay behind in England after next year's convention if it's so much better over there?

Reply 0
AndreChapelon

When did Orlando, FL become a suburb of Birmingham, UK???

. should just stay behind in England after next year's convention if it's so much better over there?

 

Next year's convention ain't in the UK, that's 6 ears from now.

 

BTW, if you;ve ever seen what's available in the UK compared to the fact the fact that the UK has 20% of the population of the US, you might want to reconsider the snark. We should have such a wide selection.

Mike

PS. I realize Getz is out of touch, but REALLY?

and, to crown their disgraceful proceedings and add insult to injury, they threw me over the Niagara Falls, and I got wet.

From Mark Twain's short story "Niagara"

Reply 0
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