Track Plan

A little more searching and I found the track plan for this layout (using PECO Set Track).

However, before I found this, I had taken a "stab" at it based upon the sketch.  I had not noticed the second run-around near the Gas Plant.  I also decided that I'd prefer the lower left spur to be an "interchange track" and moved that industry to the upper left corner ... This kept the major spurs (the interchange track, the gas plant tracks and the coal yard tracks) all trailing points for a locomotive traveling in a counter-clockwise direction.
 

This is what I came up with:

Right.  After learning so much about British/European/Australian(?) railroads in my thread concerning couplers (and realizing that I don't even know what I don't know), I thought it might be a good idea to run this by the folks on this forum to try and prevent any gross errors.  Some of the assumptions that I am using are:

1. The Coal Yard received coal for the Gas Plant(?) as well as local distribution(?)

2. The Coal Yard could ship coke (from the Gas Plant)?

3. An "interchange" track is not out of place on a model of a British railroad?

4. The Gas Plant would ship tank wagons of tar/benzine and could receive wagons of pipe ...

As for my revised track plan ... does anyone see any problems ... particularly with removing the second run-around?

Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.  Thanks.  John

Your track plan

Given the size of the whole operation, it does not look like you would have a problem with only one run around loop; you could probably shunt both groups of sidings from the one loop without too much difficulty. 

How you use the two groups of sidings will depend on how you lay out the surrounding buildings. A gas works might well have its own sidings which would handle both coal coming in and any any bi-products going out. My understanding is that the bi-products would be much smaller in volume than the coal coming in; coke might be sold locally and tar and acid should be quite limited.  In that case, the other sidings might be used for domestic coal and general freight; a goods shed would typically be provided for the general merchandise.     

I am not quite sure what role you envisage for the "interchange track"? Does it transfer freight from rail to road, from rail to an industry or from one railway company to another?

Hope this helps

Best wishes

Eric    

"Interchange" Track

Hi Eric, thanks for the comments.

My idea for the "interchange track" would be more or less a visible "fiddle yard"; a track where incoming wagons would arrive (and presumably be dropped off) and where outbound wagons would be placed (for pick-up later).  I suppose I'd be operating the layout somewhat as a single large industry, split into two parts ...

As for the arrangement of buildings ... I think I'd pretty much make it similar to the sketch.  It *seems* to me that the only place to deliver coal is the coal yard; I don't see anywhere near the Gas Plant for it?  Would it be plausible that the coal was trucked to the gas plant?  Or perhaps some underground mechanism?

Agree that the main commodity would be incoming wagons of coal; was just considering some other possibilities for variation.  The coke wagons had the extended side boards that I like and the tank wagons are interesting as well.  Goods wagons could certainly be moved around as well.

Perhaps I am not fully understanding the operation as depicted in the original plan?  Thanks again.  John

Gasworks

You might find the website for Fakenham gas works of interest, as it portrays what a small town gas works would have looked like.  

If you are looking for some variety in your selection of rolling stock, I would be tempted to have the second set of sidings handing general merchandise, which would justify all kinds of vehicles.

What sort of period would your model portray? The original Thomas books were written in the late 1940s/early 50s and have a lot of the character of that period. In those days, railways in the UK still provided a general carrier service.

Best wishes

Eric    

British Outline Layout

John, That is a neat little layout. I would be tempted to keep both passing sidings, that way the layout could be operated in both directions. As for your interchange track, you could always add a small fold down section to the end of the layout. I've seen one example, where the fold down section had a piano hinge, so it actually folded under the layout. At the other end of the fold down section, was a hinged leg. The fold down section was wide enough for two tracks, a inbound and a outbound interchange track. The turnout was on the fold down section.

British Railroding is tricky

This is a Peco toy train layout that you have found and no it is not a Thomas the tank engine layout. We in the UK did not have Thomas the tank engine, that was fiction according to the Rev Awdry for his children.

If you wish to model British Railroads then I suggest some more searching of the internet would be of use. The basic set up of British Railroads is 4 main companies prior to 1948 which consisted of the Great Western Railway (GWR), the London, Midland and Scottish (LMS), the London North Eastern Railway (LNER) and Southern Railway (SR). These came together after nationalisation to form British Railways (BR). Prior to 1928 there were a host of smaller companies which were joined into the big main four.

Modernisation came late over here with the introduction of diesels not happening until the 1950's. Steam locomotives were small, mainly 0-6-0 types and steam disappeared from the rails in 1968.

Yes our railroads tended to use 4 wheeled freight stock although some bogie stock was introduced. They used 3 link chain couplings or screw link couplings and loose coupled unfitted freights ran at 25m.p.h. Not air or vacuum braked stock.

Yes modeling the British scene has its benefits, shorter trains, smaller locos but it also has its pitfalls so care is needed. But it is ideal for those modelers who do not have much room for a layout. Also we have a large number of magazines on the hobby over here.

Go on, dip your toe in the water, it is fun.

Loconuts

Cromford Wharf and Middleton Top

The August 2003 issue of Railway modeller, a British publication has a very nice British layout only 5 feet by 3ft 8in called Cromford Wharf and Middleton Top. It is based on a British railway and uses a Peco Loco lift to move cars from one level to the other. If you can find this it will give you some ideas.

Bill Michael

Not that tricky, Loconuts

I modeled British outline OO scale for several years, and I still have all my locomotives and rolling stock. Not sure why you'd call it "tricky." Yes, it requires a lot more online research if you're in the States rather than in Britain, but there are also a plethora of books and magazines at hand.

Mainly it cost a lot more money, what with shipping and the dollar being worth less than the pound!

I eschewed the easy way out and did not use Peco or Gaugemaster track. I chose something more prototypical looking -- SMP bullhead code 75 flex with bespoke turnouts. Were I to do it over, I'd have gone with EM or even P4.

Make that prior to Jan. 1, 1923 -- that's the date when the Big Four were created!

I just wanted to provide more perspective -- British branchlines saw 0-6-0s and 2-6-0s (e.i., LMS 2MT) doing all kinds of work. While small 0-6-0s and 0-6-0Ts were the backbone of the British scene, don't overlook the superb mainline power! The Great Western, the LMS and the LNER fielded some of the most beautiful examples of 4-6-0s and 4-6-2s ever constructed.

The LMS's Black Five 4-6-0s and Coronation class 4-6-2s give ground to no one in appearance and performance, and the GWR's King, Castle and Hall classes were exquisite -- Harry Potter fans see former GWR Hall Class "Olton Hall" in the first couple films. And let's not forget the LNER's "Mallard" 4-6-2, which set the world's record in the 1938 for the fastest speed ever recorded by a steam locomotive -- 125.9 mph in July 1938.

I would be amiss to not mention the Southern's lovely 0-6-0s, 4-4-0 "Schools" class and its 4-6-2s -- but then the Southern also rostered what I consider to be ugliest steam locomotive ever built -- the Q1 class 0-6-0!

I agree! One of the great benefits is that a small branchline goods train of, say, 12 wagons consumes about one-half the linear space in OO scale (1:76) as does the same number of 40-foot boxcars in HO scale. And they do look good using Instanter, screw link or three-link couplers, as I did. But those 4-6-0s -- even the 2-6-0s -- want curves of 24-inch radius or more!

Have fun, John! Join up with RMWeb as well!

@ John

It is your model railroad.  You do what you want to please you.  I think the above track plan with artwork would make for an eye catching small layout at a model train show.  If you like it, then do it.  Remember children love trains.  You can put a lot of detail into a small layout like that.  Constructed correctly it could be a portable layout.

Just some ideas...

You could make this a brewery layout with incoming supplies for the brewery and then exporting ale.  You could even have wood coming in for crating beer bottles or barrels in the barrel cars. You could have a beer bottle glass plant as one of the businesses.  For glass making you would be able to add more materials coming in.  It would allow you to have more smoke stacks.

The track plan as is, could use the upper left to reach an extension into a cassette so trains have a way to leave the layout without using the five finger crane.  A cassette would allow you to swap out motive power and cars.  The cassette could even be a car float.  The railroad could be isolated and only reachable by car float.  Take out the roads and have more space for structures.  You could have a small switcher stationed on this island layout.  There appears to be an engine facility on the lower right.  The switcher will need oil or coal and maintenance supplies.  Workers for the factories could arrive by old passenger cars or the float could have a raised deck over the car for a passenger area.  Workers walk on and off.

In the end, it is what you make of it.  Dream big, make it happen.  What will bring it alive is the details and weathering you put into it.

Den

Coal for 2 different markets

Hi John 

The coal for the gas works and the coal yard may be different and may be from different mines in different parts of the country. In the days of private owner wagons, some of the larger coal merchants had their own dedicated wagon fleets. 

The coal for the gas works can be anything from powder to small block size, but probably not large lumps. The coal retailer would be bringing in a wider range of sizes. The coal distributor/retailer would supply large coal to industries like forges/foundries/industrial boilers, smaller nut size coal for household domestic applications and possibly bagged sized coal for specialist customers. 

Have a look a at  "Coal loads for inserts" at  http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/9-loads/9-min.htm  

In the modified words of an old Castol Oil advertisement - "Coals ain't Coals" - so the correct size coal will have to end up over the correct drop chute at the coal distributor - Perhaps an additional operational "wrinkle" for you? 

UK in the US

Not that tricky at all. Most recent UK ready to run models have the same DCC setups as the US and DC is the same too.  Wiring is identical. New locomotives have DCC plugs with blanking boards for DCC. Sometimes an N scale DCC decoder is required for a small tank locomotive. 6-8-9-21 pin adapters are available. 

The common track, usually Peco, but some more accurate alternates are just arriving on the market, is the same gauge as HO 16.5 which is under gauge for the UK modeling scale of 4mm to the foot(1/76). (We and the rest of the world use 3.5 mm to the foot.)

One thing about couplers. Again most recent RTR wagons coaches and locomotives have what is called an NEM coupler pocket. The hook/loop that is the old NMRA hook /horn equivalent in the UK can be pulled out with little force and Kadee 17,18, 19 or 20 couplers directly inserted. The only problem is that not every manufacturer follows the recommended guidelines on coupler height. 

I have had a UK prototype shunting plank layout here in Walnut Creek California for the last 20 years. It also has a lend-lease arrangement for testing my latest Southern Pacific modeling efforts. 

Lastly, it is not more expensive. I have been dealing with a certain mail order shop in Liverpool, England that is extremely well stocked for the last 30 years. The price to us is automatically reduced by 20% Value Added Tax being deducted. Postage is less than US shippers for air expedited shipments. 

If you have questions, contact me directly. 

Be glad to help.

Ken Adams

You're forgetting the exchange rate

I disagree. I've dealt with Hatton's and Rails of Sheffield, both reputable dealers, over the past decade and more, as well as other smaller firms. I wasn't charged the Value Added Tax either. Shipping costs from the UK are about what it would be in the U.S. using Priority Mail. In that you're correct.

But that doesn't entirely offset the exchange rate: I was paying on average $1.50 per GBP. The pound is still was stronger than the dollar today despite until Brexit: looking on eBay, I see that a near-mint DCC ready Bachmann 3F Jinty is GBP 70 with postage of GBP 10 -- that's $92 plus $13.25 for shipping -- EDIT: This is according to eBay's currency conversion calculations for this item and others. All or most of the Jintys I saw listed on eBay appear to be listed with the pre-Brexit exchange rate. 

So it is has been more expensive here in the U.S. until recently if only because of the dollar's usual weakness relative to the pound. Please see Eric's post below.

BTW, John, if you're reading this, that's still a darn good price! Bachmann's OO scale locomotives are well-detailed and generally very good runners, although the Jinty lacks a flywheel (unless later releases have been improved). And the Jinty 0-6-0T was one of the maids-of-all-work on the LMS and later British Railway's Midland Region, perfect for your little layout!

You could build the layout...

...as an Industrial line which interchanges with BR or one of the pregrouping roads Like Gods Wonderful Railway (GWR) and the "Interchange" track could be where the mainline picks up the wagons left by the industrial line. This was very common in Britain especially in the early days.

By the way the "interchange track" term is not used in Britain the term used is "exchange siding".

Try buying from the US to deliver in the UK

If you think UK to USA is expensive, try it the other way.

Loco $130

Postage $30

VAT payable in UK = 20% of $160 = $32

Cost of VAT collection $11

So total cost = $203

At a current exchange rate of £1 to $1.3, total cost is £176.93 for £100 loco 

Exchange rate

So it is more expensive here in the U.S. if only because of the dollar's weakness relative to the pound.

From painful personal experience, I can confirm that the Dollar is strong against the Pound - currently a little over $1.3/£1, which is the best (from the US perspective) that it has been for some years. So buy now, or, better still, do a research visit to the UK and spend your Dollars!

Best wishes 

Eric

Exchange Siding

First, thanks to all who have responded; so much information to sort through.  I will try to address each of the thoughts/ideas as we move along ... some in future posts as I want to mainly focus on the track plan for now.

Industries.  Yes a brewery would make a very plausible industry for this plan.  However, I think I am somewhat hooked on that gas storage tank ... that is what caught my eye and prompted me to learn more about how those gas works operated.  Also I like the overall *look* of the layout sketch, so will try and mimic it to the best of my ability.  

Equipment.  No, I will not be running Thomas the Tank Engine (although it certainly might become available later ...).  I have selected a Bachmann Midland 1F 0-6-0T as my motive power (which arrived yesterday).  I had the loco equipped with ESU DCC and sound. I have also purchased a rake of 3 Bachmann 14T Tank Wagons lettered for British Tar Products (which arrived last week).  These will put my time frame at late 40's early 50's.

Exchange Rates.  Not an expert, but it certainly does seem that the dollar does OK in the UK these days.  So, I figure now might be a good time to take the plunge.  

Right ... back to the track plan ...

Graeme has correctly interpreted my thinking.  It is (was?) my intention to operate this layout more or less as an industrial line ... where traffic would arrive and depart from an Exchange Track (thank you for the correct term).  Although the plan consists of an oval ... I'd operate it more like a linear line, which due to (modeling) space considerations has been folded back upon itself (and the two ends connected to allow for just watching the train run ....)

In support of this operating scheme ... it is my intention to place the left end of layout (per the track plan) against the wall with access to the other three sides for operation.  This would preclude adding any sort of "temporary" trackage further to the left (unless I planned on pulling the layout away from the wall to operate it).  I think this will also allow me to get away with only the one run around track ... there is really no way to turn the locomotive, so it will always be facing the same direction (and I should only need the run around to service the upper facing point siding).

Coal.  Need to read those links provide ... but I would *really* prefer if all the coal was handled at the coal yard rather than trying to include more facilities at the gas works (I don't see any in the sketch); but perhaps that is too far a stretch of the imagination?  These are the things I'm trying to sort out in my head.  Yes, it is my railroad ... but I'd really like to prevent making "noob" mistakes if I can ... you know the "its a nice looking layout; but you've gotten it all wrong ..." sort of thing.  That is why I ask the questions, and appreciate any and all feedback.  (If I go ahead and do it *all wrong* anyway; at least I'll know I did it BEFORE it is done ...)

Early BR logo

Excellent choice of the 1F! Another stalwart of the LMS and prior to that the Midland Railway. The early BR logo of the "lion riding a unicycle" places your time frame in the early 1950s, just as you intended.

For such a small layout, I think your operating scheme fits the space and configuration about as well as can be expected. Reasonable compromise is always a necessary ingredient with small layouts.

No worries about needing or having to turn the locomotive, John. British tank locomotives ran backward quite often, so that is not unusual in the least. 

You're right, Eric!

I was looking at the eBay pricing and eBay's conversions for the Jinty listed, when I should have checked the currency conversions, where the dollar was worth .76 GBP. 

Indeed, it's a good time to buy UK outline!

Good Choice

Hi

That was a good choice, not only puts you in the early period of BR (1948 onwards) but a nice small useful loco. But beware this puts your layout the London Midland and Scottish region (Midland Division). Locos did not start crossing into other areas until much later.

Also BR took over the Private Owner coal wagons so they did not have the private owner names on the sides. They were painted grey and lettered in the BR fashion. As for supplying the Gas Works, they would have had their own supply separate from the domestic coal supplies. Out going from the gas works would be trains of coke wagons a by product of making town gas.

It is right that the tank engines do not require turning but this was also true of the tender engines and were seen running tender first unlike the practices in the USA. Common types that fit into this is the 4F, 3F and 2F, all are 0-6-0 types. Anything larger would be out of place on this layout so do not be tempted by a model of Flying Scotsman.

I am based in the UK and have modeled British for over 40 years in either 4mm and 7mm scale, mainly Midland and GWR. Now ploughing a lonely furrow doing D&RGW narrow gauge. My advice would be to get friendly with a British modeler doing American so that models can be exchanged, this does away with import duties.

Loconuts

@Loconuts

Loconuts, how far would a gas works typically be located from residences? Seems as if the fumes generated from the coke ovens would be far too toxic to have them that close to town. But then again, in large cities a pipeline distribution system from one central gasworks would seem expensive and unwieldy. Probably best to live upwind of the gas works, right?!

At any rate, John, you'll have a busy shunting location there at the gas works, what with loads of coal coming in and loads of coke and ash going out. 

You might want to check out.......

The British publication Model Rail

There's an article in the July, 2016 Model Rail about creating street trackage that includes includes pictures of gas works. The pics are on pages 78&79,  Two of the pics are model shots.

Rail Model, from time to time, has some interesting articles that hone in on different features of the British scene. The same July issue had a focus on things "off the beaten track", including paper mills, shipyards, breweries, chemical plants, auto plants, distilleries, the Cadbury plant, among others. There's also a feature article and multiple track plans for layouts based on scrapyards,

The August, 2016 issue of Model Rail feaures 42 pages of modeling ideas based on engine sheds and roundhouses (with multiple track plan samples).. The year prior (August, 2015) focused on collieries, with several track plans. The May, 2016 issue featured stations of different sizes (42 pages worth) with several track plans. The feaured speciality for the July, 2015 issue was all things associated with Isambard Kingdom Brunel (which is firmly in Great Western Railway/Western Region of British Railways territory). For that issue, there are track plans that feature the Brunel designed Clifton suspension bridge over the Avon River near Bristol. http://bestofbristol.co/13-amazing-clifton-suspension-bridge-photos/

I can't speak for the entire US, but the Barnes and Noble stores in both Gilroy, CA and August, ME carry Model Rail. As a matter of fact, the B&N in Augusta, ME carries more British model railway and prototype mags than it does US. A single issue of Model Rail goes for $8.99. I realize that's expensive, but I think it's worth it. You can also get a digital subscription for £29.00 (roughly $38/year). Here's the web page for the subscription: https://www.greatmagazines.co.uk/model-rail-magazine?utm_source=dynamic&utm_medium=bws&utm_content=nav&utm_campaign=bau_modelrail

Main web page: http://www.model-rail.co.uk/

The more "mainsream" mags (Railway Modeller, Hornby) generally shy away from specialty articles that seem to be Model Rail's bread and butter. I think you might get a lot out of it.

Mike

Coke wagons

Hi John,

the coke wagons are basically the same as coal wagons but they have extended sides and ends on them. This is because coke is a lot less dense than coal. So, you can fit more product volume into the wagon before you max out on weight. 

Great little plan

John, the more I peruse this plan, the more of a winner it seems for its size. There a lot to like in just 24 square feet. Sure, the basis is a roundy-roundy, but I think you mentioned operating it as a point-to-point. There may be flaws I'm not seeing; if so, it's because there are some many positives in this little layout, from the number of industrial sidings and wagon spots, to the scenic treatment.

An aspect I do appreciate is that the planner did not design this with a passenger station. Even 57-foot coaching stock looks terrible in tight curves! 

The gasworks will be an

The gasworks will be an interesting project to model - although you can always pick up Hornby Skaledale items on e-bay. I had an idea that there was a card kit available but the only thing I can find is this. There is no scale on it but it might provide a good "quickie" to help to visualise the scene. 

Best wishes

Eric