Where I'm headed, too

Careful, Joe, that stuff can short out a decoder! 

The emergence of the Full Throttle software caused me to place on hold my intent to go over to RailPro. I'll stick with DCC for now. I was sold when I saw the recent video from Mike Confalone's layout. 

Motive power on the San Jacinto (one Proto GP-7 and one switcher to-be-named-later, probably an Alco S type or HH type) are going to have LokSound Selects with the Full Throttle as well. 

I'm thinking I can use the style of ESU decoder shown below in the Geep; the switcher will likely need the Micro Select version:

Heady days, indeed!

Tsunami II

Joe,

Thanks for your post!

I really enjoyed your past post about the Tsunamis with the working independent brake and coasting feature. I thought this is it!

I have no layout right now and I'm just collecting loco's for my future layout. I stopped buying sound equipped engines in anticipation of the new decoders.

I watched the video for the new Tsunami II  decoders and thought this will be my new decoder! Then I watched the Full Throttle video and thought this is my new decoder!

Have you been able to operate a new Tsunami II?

Without any first hand knowledge, my concern with the Full Throttle decoder is whether you have to spend too much effort manipulating the throttle to get the realistic sounds and actions that mimic the prototype?

My concern with the Tsunami II is whether a lash-up of engines would be able to feel the load of the train through BEMF and operate like a single unit does in the video?

I'm back leaning towards ESU now as a result of your post. 

If you have any comparisons or insight to the Tsunami II, I would really appreciate your thoughts.

Todd Templeton

Moving to all LokSound...

I have several locos with Tsunamis in them and have used Joe's coast function and I really liked the effect.

I also have a couple of SW1s that have LokSound select Micros in them. I chose the LokSound for the SW1s because they had the best option for the very early (6 cyl) 567. Now with the Full Throttle features and a real 6 cyl 567 sound file I had to try it. I love it.

I now also have a LokProgrammer and an ESU decoder tester I found on eBay for a good price. It will be all ahead to LokSound as budget allows....

"Without any first hand

        If you don't have a layout or any place to run engines I'd not worry about the hype for the latest greatest thing and just wait til you need a sound equipped loco.  The state of the art moves too fast to plan ahead for later use. Once you get to the point where an engine can be put to use I'd try one of whichever seemed to fit my needs best then make my own decision.......DaveB

Loksound? Say it isn't so Joe..

Couldn’t agree more

I have a smaller layout and Loksound fits the bill perfectly. 

Another advantage of Loksound is that they’ve built in more realistic notching reaction vs. Tsunami. When reducing speed, Tsunami’s "stair step" down each notch sound while Loksound drops immediately down. This is realistic. Tsunami’s require the operator to wait for the sound to catch up to the movement of the locomotive which I always found frustrating. Loksound’s Full Throttle just adds to their already impressive programming. 

Ok, shameless plug:  Matt has agreed to work with us as we develop our realistic control stand where together we will be building the ultimate control experience. All eight notch sounds will be linked to their proper position on the detented throttle along with coast in the idle position. We’ll also have a brake function that works realistically with a locking position (also acts as an emergency stop function). It’s yet to be determined if the Full Throttle feature will be included as we may have an expanded feature we call "Tonnage" which will be built into the programming. With the Tonnage feature, modelers will have four separate options to program in their own specific CVs for speed curve and momentum. Once programmed into the throttle’s memory, the engineer will have almost instant ability to change the tonnage settings on the main. This will simulate different weight and inertia characteristics and thus require different throttle and brake manipulation – just like the real thing!

Follow our thread to keep up-to-date on how the throttle is developing at: http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/25866

We’re producing the throttle via Open Source. When we eventually bring it to market, if you’d prefer to build your own, you can!

Loksound

Hi Todd - I haven't yet operated a T2.  Since so much of my roster is custom, I'm a little cautious about opening up locomotives just to try a decoder out.  I typically make my decisions based on videos and discussions with others who've used them.  In this case, in addition to the video comparisons, my decision was based on the use of the Loksound decoder during Matt's visit versus e-mail and telephone discussions I've had with George at SoundTraxx.

That's understandable, but I didn't find it to be a problem at all.  In fact, it was super easy to pick up to the point of being second nature, and just plain FUN to operate.   The sound of an Alco throttling up while it shoves a heavy train was, to my ear, nothing short of beautiful, so the throttle manipulation actually began to feel a bit like I was playing music.  I don't recall ever having so much fun while operating, and that's really saying something for me.

Just based on what I've seen and heard in videos and discussed with SoundTraxx, my concerns with the T2 are as follows:

1. It continues the design principal that the decoder knows how hard the prime mover should be working better than the operator does.  I don't believe it will perform accurately under all circumstances, but if I'm going to go to the trouble of upgrading, I don't want to do so for what I consider to be a partial solution to my sound needs.
2. After hearing the Loksounds firsthand, I believe their recording quality is better than that of Tsunamis.  I've heard others say the same before, but I wasn't convinced until I was able to compare the two on my own layout.  I also really love what Matt is doing with multiple recordings of the same prime mover types.  
3. Soundtraxx seems to think it's okay to make me continue to open up a roster full of custom models, jeopardizing a lot of fragile details, every time I want to upgrade.  Once I complete my move to Loksounds (during which I also plan to install ditch lights and flashing beacons where needed), I don't plan to take these models apart again, thanks to Loksound's ability to download new sound files for future upgrades.  Even if dead rail advances make that technology viable, I can't imagine switching.  I just don't see the payoff when clipper oil gives me the reliable pick-up I need.

I understand Dave's point about waiting on your sound installs until your need arises for operating sound-equipped locomotives.  However, depending on the size of the roster you intend to build, that can also waste some valuable construction time, preventing you from having enough power ready to operate once the layout becomes a reality.  And again, if you go with Loksound and their technology advances post-install, you can always download the latest and greatest.

I'm with you Joe

I agree with you Joe. I operate both LokSound and Tsunami's on my Seaboard Central. And like you I've programmed my Tsunami equipped locomotives to run as realistically as I can. That said as someone who earns his hobby money running the real thing I see where the LokSound with the Full Throttle excels. As a matter of fact my newest locomotive, an MTH NS Dash 9-44CW is being equipped with a LokSound V4.0 by BradleyDCC right now. This unit will not only have the Full Throttle feature but a couple of custom sounds simulating coupling up and also an air hose separation when uncoupling that sounds like the air brakes shooting on the equipment left standing. Awesome stuff! I also have a number of projects including 9 locomotives that will need decoders, all of which will be LokSound. And to help with programming I just purchased the LokProgrammer from Trainworld. 

I hope you make a video of your LokSound Full Throttle units on your IAIS. I can't wait to see and hear them in action.

Tim Garland

Amazing

At $90 a pop, this decision is not an easy one to make.  Joe has been such a proponent of the Tsunami system in the past.  Something special has made him make this move.  It has peaked my interest.  I want to see what the sound does to the motor power as well as the nuances of the sound program.  

What is your plan?  The dynamics of this market place is such that the other guys will have to make a counter move before you can finish the entire roster.  In the last three years, things have really gotten interesting.  

Loksound for steam?

My interest is .. um .. piqued as well

All the explanations and examples of Loksound and their full throttle software feature diesels. Meanwhile I've been told that Tsunami steam sounds are superior to Loksound's.

Is there any reason to favour Loksound over Tsumami for steam locomotives?

Demand

Just hope that ESU can meet the demand with all of you switching over. 

LokSound Steam

At this point, even Matt from ESU will tell you that other manufacturers have an excellent product for steam decoders. But he's looking to change that - this year.

Matt has already announced that Full Throttle steam decoders will hit the market this fall. If they do for steam what ESU has done for diesel, I'm switching over.

I currently use TCS WOWSound decoders in my steam engines, and I'm happy with them - for the most part. I like them better than the Soundtraxx first generation Tsunami decoders I replaced. (Should we start calling those "Tsunami-1"?). But they do have a few bugs in them. I've learned to work around most of these.

I know that TCS has introduced upgraded versions of their WOWSound decoders, which may address some of the bugs in my earlier-generation models. I have not upgraded for a few reasons:

First, upgrading requires pulling the decoders and sending them to TCS (along with a small fee). I'm not really keen on pulling the decoders, especially in those of my steam engines where the decoders are mounted in the smokebox. This would require disassembling the boiler from the chassis. That's how kinks and binds are introduced.

Second, I'm not keen on having my locomotives out of operation for a few weeks (minimum). Even with quick turnaround on the part of TCS, the postal system would have my decoders for at least a week in each direction (I live in Canada, TCS is in the United States).

Third, there's not much point in upgrading the TCS decoders if I'm going to switch to the LokSound Full Throttle (Full Johnson Bar?) Steam decoders. So I'll wait to experience those then decide what path to take.

I am very much in favor of ESU's approach to upgrades: Namely, put a really great decoder inside the locomotive ONCE, and then upgrade it using downloadable files without having to remove it.

I do not have experience with the Soundtraxx Econami or the new Tsunami-2 decoders so I can't comment on them.

Cheers!

- Trevor

Loksound

Paul, Ken, Karl, Scott, and Tim, thanks for your feedback.  

Larry, I'm hoping to have my roster converted in the next year or so.  As you pointed out, sound installs can be a moving target, but I don't expect to upgrade frequently, and don't plan to ever switch decoders again if I can help it.  After speaking with Matt, I'm confident that ESU will be leading much of the change in this industry, so future upgrades should be simple.  I'm sure I'll eventually be left in the technological dust, as keeping up with the latest and greatest advancements isn't terribly important to me, but I'm okay with that. Right now, I can't imagine ever wanting more than what Full Throttle currently offers.

Chris, I'm glad to see Trevor chime in on steam, because I honestly haven't kept up with what's happening there.  I've heard from people here who are super happy with their Tsunamis in steam...as I was with mine in my diesel roster.  But Matt has a sneaky way loosening our grip on the status quo with those shiny new toys he's offering.   I'd be shocked if he doesn't turn the steam sound world on its ear once he turns his attention to it.  He's a modeler like the rest of us, and seems to have a keen sense of what we want to see.

Ha!  I'm sure Matt wouldn't mind that problem. 

One thing missing...

Dear MRHers,

IMHO there's still one thing missing from the Lok offerings which,
for my mind, means ST still has the upper hand...

...Onboard EQ...

Next-big-thing "control-maths" tweaking is certainly impressive,
but if the resulting audio output signal can't be adapted to suit the specific onboard speaker/enclosure/mounting installation in question, 
then ear-hurting, migraine-inducing, sub-44.1kHz/16bit-spec audio is still bad audio...

(...and no, ST do not have exclusive rights over basic DSP EQ processing implementation,
the underlying maths principles in the digital audio domain are clearly and presently known...)

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

​PS With the "white noise" Hisses and Chuffs that make up many Steam sound elements,
having a usable EQ becomes even more crucial, as White Noise will provoke any "coloration" imparted downstream by the D/A converter, Amp stage, speaker driver, enclosure, and mounting to become notably audible...

Loksound

Joe, I completely agree with switching back to Loksound, especially with their full throttle feature. I have recently purchased locomotives simply for their Loksound decoders, and also plan to switch my Tsunamis over.....

Loksound conversion

Glad to hear it!  Hopefully we can all help each other through the learning curve.  I plan to use this thread as a means of documenting my struggles and findings as I step into the Loksound world and the wide variety of new CVs I need to learn, so hopefully others will do the same.

@Joe...

I met Matt at the St. Louis RPM Meet this weekend and he spent some time demonstrating the Full Throttle feature to me and "Wow" it is really cool...do they still say cool any more?...anyway I really appreciated his time and patience explaining it to me. I also attended his clinic, just so I could hear the explaination a second time, I'm a little slow on the up take, anyway, I'm hooked.  John

Cost of LocSound Select Micro?

I was up on ESU's site looking around.  I can find everything but a cost  Does anybody know the approximate cost of a Select Micro with Full Throttle functionality for US locos?

Thanks,

Mike Lee

Try this

this is MB klein' site: http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Decoders-s/2320.htm?searching=Y&sort=3&cat=2320&show=30&page=1&brand=ESU

There are different micro's at different costs.  

Switching over....

< < Another thing that really impressed me about Loksound is that Matt is in the process of recording multiple locomotives of the same type, allowing even locomotives within a consist with like prime mover types to each exhibit their own unique sounds and "personality".  Gone are the days of every SD40-2 in your roster sounding exactly like every other SD40-2!

That's a great idea for older stuff like F units.  When the CZ used to throttle up with old tired WP units, seemed as if each unit cranked up at it's own pace!  ​

​And then of course, there are those legendary "Screaming SD45's" that seems to hang around Donner Pass on the SP.

LokSound gonna take your old decoders in trade?  That's gonna be a substantial switch over of 35 units.  Us old retired farts would never be able to finance that unless we hit the Power Ball!

​Keep us informed!

Just ordered. . .

. . . as of last night a LokSound Direct Select and an EMD 567C (I hope) Full Throttle firmware soundfile for my Kato ATSF NW2. The critical dimensions of the ESU decoder are dead-on compared to the Tsunami GN1000 that Bruce Petraca used for his conversion shown in TMTV.

I'll be ordering second LokSound Direct later on for my ATSF GP-7. 

You’re gonna love it

Paul,

That’s the same prime mover I have in my SW1200 #250. Incredible sound!

Can't wait

The advent of Full Throttle is what's persuaded me to stay with DCC rather than go with RailPro, Scott. The enthusiasm that you, Joe and Mike Confalone exude for Full Throttle is infectious! And with Bruce Petrarca's fine video at hand, installation will be straightforward.

When I placed my order with Tony's Train Exchange last night, I initially ordered the decoder with the 567A file. Problem is, the sound file is for the six-cylinder version, and the NW2 used the 12-cylinder version.

So tonight I shot TTX an e-mail asking for the 567C version. Not quite correct for an NW2, but at least it's 12 cylinders.

Perhaps one person in 10,000 would know the difference in sound between a 567A 12-cylinder and a 567C 12-cylinder. I sure don't!

Financing the conversion

I was hoping to soften that blow through the sale of my existing Tsunamis.  I have a number of them for prime mover types that aren't covered by the Econami (e.g. EMD 645 non-turbo and 710G3C-T2, Alco 251...as well as Kato-style boards with integrated LEDs), so my hope is that there's a market for reasonably-priced used Tsunamis.

Also, I was approached by someone who's moving the other direction and standardizing on Tsunamis and Tsunami 2's.  He's offered to trade me 25 of his Loksounds for a like number of my Tsunamis.

Finally, since I run fixed consists, at one time I was looking to reduce the cost of the conversion by only converting 2 units per consist if the third unit was of the same prime mover type.  That'd still be an option for someone looking to convert on a budget.  With Matt recording multiple prime movers of the same type, though, I decided to do all units in each consist to take advantage of the sound differences.  Also, Loksound covers, or will cover, many more prime mover sub-types than Tsunami (e.g. rebuilt 567s with 645 power assemblies, 567s with no transition, etc.), so more units will have their own unique sound characteristics.