One way to determine the answer

One way to determine the answer is to focus the layout design on that part of the hobby that most interests you.

Do you like industrial switching? The focus your layout design on that part.

Do you like mainine running - then design the layout to have lots of mainline run and leave out things like a space-eating yard.

Like yard operation? The focus your layout design on having a really fun-to-operate yard.

So what area floats your boat? Don't know the answer? Take the next two months and get yourself invited to as many layout op sessions as you can and try each.

Believe me, once you have some real operating experience under your belt, you'll be in a much better position to determine your layout focus and from that the design will almost fall out onto the paper.

Step one is to look at the landscape your building on

The best thing for you to do is get some Information about the Railroad system in the state of Florida or at least the area that the main line runs through and find some photos of the landscape.

What is used under the Rails to support the track wood or Concrete ties and in areas like swamp lands & Coastal sandy areas what Ballast structure is needed.  You need to find out what businesses and industries are available in Model and structure forms from different Hobby manufacturers Then design your railroad around this and also find out what a couple of the yards near the ocean and Harbors in Florida look like.

There should be more than enough container operation & transportation to build a nice operation in your space.

This gives you one or 2 Ideas as well as what Joe mentioned. Take a couple months to discover your options model railroading isn't a race it's going to be your hobby and formed around what you like.

Dan

Well.......

 Well, the main problem is this: I have been trying to figure out what industries to build for a while (close to 3 years) everything else has been planed otherwise. Now, I know that there's at least 1 cerial-box manufacturer in Jacksonville I would like to replicate (I know about it because my father worked there back in the 70's and 80's before he became a fire fighter) and I also know that, in Greencove Springs, a small town South of Jacksonville and North of St.Augustine, there's an industrial complex with many industries, and a railroad museum (I'm a member) as well as a military museum. I know that the park, and the docks across the highway all use to belong to the U.S. Navy, and they had railroad tracks running through the base for supplys (I frequently visit the restraunt that has areal-view photos dating from WW II-about the early 80's). 

   I also know that, on old Highway 301, in Baldwin, FL, CSX has a large railyard, but there's not a lot of industrys there. I have been searching on Google Earth for satalite immages of the area, but unless I know the specific industry, it won't show me anything about the buildings.

I have given thought to a harbor with an intermodal terminal, but the relitively high expense with the required equipment has sort of scared me off.

Well, how about these industries: Pulp-wood and paper processing, and a mysterious (to me) mineral called Potash, used to make soap? It's a start, and I have seen some Potash quaries (all of the side of the mountain between it and the highway) and I know, in North Florida, paper production and pulp-wood harvesting are huge chunks of the economy.  No tourism, though as the only sights worth seeing are at St. Augustine, unless if yo9u like football, then you have (former) Altel Stadium

I'll keep researching, and thinking about the subject,though. It does help that school lets out in a few weeks, so I can concentrate more on the subject. (I'm a highschool freshman)

Based on your geography

Have you considered modeling the Appalachicola Northern ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN_Railway)?  Lots of industrial swithcing in Port St. Joe, good interchange with the CSX, and some available already painted equipment in both HO and N scale.  Doubly so if you buy some G&W locos and strip the lettering to redo in AN.

Chicken before the Egg

CSX-

If you take a look at my signature and follow through a few of my older blog posts you will see I was in not a dissimilar situation to you about a year and a half ago.  I had an idea of what I wanted to model (I wanted to model a proto-freelance industrial switching railroad in New York, you want to model a proto-freelance version of the CSX in NE Florida) and I spent TONS of time in the beginning researching industries when I should have concentrated more of my time on getting benchwork built and track laid down.

My advice would be to take the space you have available ( you figured this out way quicker than I did, kudos) and work out a track plan and start building the benchwork and laying down track even if only temporarily (caulk is great for this).  Industries (especially modern ones) have a very similar look to them:  usually they are steel structures with an access door or two or an open siding for unloading bulk materials. Figure out a track plan with a space for Industry #1, #2, etc. for now and fill in the blanks later.

On my layout EVERY single industry has changed from my original plan with only one exception and in no way has this made me do extra work or start over from scratch.  My $.02 (and it is only that, there are far more experienced model railroaders on this board than I) is get the benchwork up and track down to see if you even like the plan that you've envisioned.

I hope this helps!

~rb

If you haven't operated a layout before, you need to put some

track down and run some trains to see what you like best.  Expect the first layout to be a "chain saw".  Your space may define the benchwork, but the layout of the tracks will probably not be the way you want it the first time you build it.  You will probably find places where it would work better with the track laid out differently.  You may even want to use mock ups for all of your industries to start with.  That way, if a track arraingement doesn't work very well, you don't have a kit that you have spent a lot of time and money on that is in the way of track changes.

You can look at track plans until your "eyes hurt", but you probably won't see everything until you actually get the track down and run some trains.  As you run the trains and work the industries, you will find ways to improve the track plan or specific problems that you may not have answers to.  Those problems can then be posted here as specific questions that will be more focused and easier to answer.

It has 198 pages as I write this reply, so it may be even bigger by the time you can read it, but read or skim through the blog "Tidewater Railroad" by Charley.  He puts down his track and puts in industries, but doesn't ballast until after the new construction has been operated on for a few weeks.  Much of his layout has been taken up and redone with industries moved around to make it operate better.  When it finally operates the way he wants it to, he then puts in the ballast to make things "permanent."

track first

I add my support to the track first side.  You won't know if you prefer running or switching until you do some.  Operations are a way to run layouts  - not a pre-requisite - and require some experience to plan for.

Trying to model a prototype is great until you recognize how small a piece of reality your layout will represent. If your space is 18X10 feet (half a garage) then the perimeter is less than a mile in HO.  The largest home layouts don't represent much of the prototype.  Focus on what you want to do and get the details later.

On my recent switching layout I had no idea what  two industries did - they took two boxcars a session - that's all I needed -  

Another consideration is cost.  If you plan a master layout the cost may stop you from building.  Start with something simple and learn the mechanical and the imaging as  you build. 

Artarms

how would clutter come into play?

  Well, I sort of have a confession to make: the Garage is not exactly readily avalable right now, it's flooded with a sea of boxes and knick-knacks and other stuff from wall to wall. My parents assured me, however, that we will clean it out this summer, after school let's out, and have a huge gearge sale. After that, we will buy the lumber and drywall to build a semi-perminant wall,effectively cutting the garage in half.

   I sort of have some room for a test layout,though. In my bedroom, I have a 1x6-foot piece of wood from who knows where that I turned into a layout (actually, it's some track nailed to the board so I can display my locomotives, with little running.) Unfortunately, almost all of my track (turnouts included) are seccond-hand , and doesn't offer reliability in the way of eather electrical operations or at an actual operating stand-point (The Model Power GP-20 likes it,though) all on sort of poor planing, or due to my lack of knowledge on how to solder. I tried soldering with a "Cold Heat" soldering iron (You know, thay had the Info-mertials for them a while back) and it's not spectacular, other than the time I set some flex-track on fire. That's another story.

I'll try to clear out my back room and "try on" the different types of layouts, like I have been advised. I can't really visit anyone else's layout,though. The only one I know of is the trainset loop at the Hobby World close to where I live. I'll give it a shot, and don't worry, I'm not ging to solder track on the carpet, and I'll buy all new track for the loyout when I get benchwork done.

CSX, what town are you in?

Make some train buddies

OK, you made me laugh with that one.  Here is one other suggestion I can offer:  join the National Model Railraod Association.  Go on their website (www.nmra.org) and join up with their 6 month trail membership for $9.99.  Once you do that then call their offices and ask for the contact information for the president of your division (this is the local "branch" of the NMRA and the only part you will really deal with) and reach out to them and explain what you are doing.  If your experience is anything like mine they will jump on the opportunity to help you out. 

I'm 33 years old and the members around here were thrilled to meet someone my age (let alone yours) with an interest in the hobby and have gone out of their way to keep me invovled.  Experience with the NMRA will vary but I think it's worth a try.  If they ahve any brains in your division they will fall over themselves trying to help you out as there is the constant drumbeat in this hobby about the "graying" of those invovled.  If they don't offer you all the time and assistance they can then they can't complain anymore!  For me, one afternoon's worth of my time and I was able to get myself invovled with a local operating group that meets every month at various layouts in the area.

Now let me put on my responsible hat for a moment.  I somehow became a parent recently (well, I know EXACTLY how but that is a different story) so I feel obligated to say this:  do your Mom and Dad a favor and don't go running off into people's homes you don't know all by yourself.  Bring a friend along or something.  I will now step off of my soapbox.

In the end, I've found you learn much more and more quickly face to face than you can over the internet or working by yourself.  There is plenty to be had here in terms of experience and knowledge so take some time to look around.

~rb

here I am

 Well, I won't divuldge specifics, but I will say I'm an hours drive to Jacksonville,FL and about 2 hours from St.Augustine, FL. (That's why I want to model this area) but the searching for someone who will invite me to their layout is more than likely a no-go. Too many shootings, kidnappings, etc,etc, reported in the news, and they don't like the idea of me being by myself at someone else's home (once, I went to Hobby World, mentioned earlier, and my mom droped me off for 1/2 an hour. I've become good friends with the employees, from being a frequent flyer, but it still drove Dad up the wall, when he herd the story)  The prospect of joining the NMRA, or another group,however, is still a possible par for the course. I'm a member of the museum I mentioned before (the NE FL RR museum) and they have a show layout, nearing completion. Most of the work, however, is centred towards working on the SP caboose and a GE 44-tonner locomotive (one of the first ones made). I'll look into the NMRA as a posibility.

CSX Welcome to the group. Now

CSX

Welcome to the group. Now about your layout. Have you ever heard of Google Earth, it is a program that lets you zoom in on about any place on the earth like from a satalite. It is not real time, some of the photos could be a couple of years old. But if you down load it ( its free) and zoom in around Jacksonville, find the CSX railway, follow it south you can see the sideings to companys that have rail service. That would give you an idea what is along the route. And when you get to Fort Lauderdale give me a wave thats where I live.

  Here is the link:  http://earth.google.com/download-earth.html

Small world, ain't it?

 It sure is a Small world (Walt Disney, your right again) I think our about 150 miles or so South of me. I have used the on-line version, but internet downloads scare me off quite quick (except for Adobe .pdf downloads, there safe) I'll remember to give you a quick hello, the next time I hitch a ride on the Google satalite

Get your dad to come along

I will ask, still a toss-up

  I'll ask my dad, if we find a layout we can visit, to come with me.  Still doubtful. He grew up in Jacksonville (now the O.K. Corral) and he worked there in the 80's and 90's as a fire fighter, and he's seen some grusome things that he still remembers to this day, and he mentiones them whenever we pass where they happened ( In fromt of a hotel with a fancy steak-house, he and his partner saved a man's life, when they were driving in the ambulance, and found the guy getting stabbed repeatedly by another man. He would have bled to death if they hadn't stumbled upon the scene)Because of those years on the fire department, and what he saw in public schools, he's always keeping his head on a swivel (that is, he is always looking out for any one who could spell troubble). Unfortunately, his sence of security has rubed off on me, and now I'm paranoid, and I don't trust anyone ( Even at a place with armed gaurds, I still don't feel safe) Life as I know it is not in any way like an adverage teen-ager. Now, I do trust the employees at the hobby shop, and the volunteers at the railroad museum, but outside of those places and areas, I have few to no friends.

   The only aception is on a cruise. I won't go off-topic badly, but I will say that I have been on enough cruises to know that I have nothing to fear, unless I get off the ship in a foreign country. Even then, I still have reason to doubt.

   I don't think all hope is lost,though.  I remember hearing from one of my uncles, that the local Moose Haven has a model railroad museum with a layout. I haven't been there yet, but it should give me ideas (even if I don't get to operate a train) There are also some more local hobby shops, but are not listed in the Yellow pages. Mabe, when I get my driver's lisence, I'll drive around, and try to find those shops (I know one of them is advertising in the museum's newsletter)

O.K., no more doom-and-gloom, time to get back on subject.

CSX and Tropicana Juice

Isn't Tropicana a big client for CSX ?  They have a big operation in your neck of the woods. That would be a great portion to model.

Bill1952, you live in Ft Lauderdale, then we must be neighbors, I live in Cooper City by Davie.

Yes, the Tropicana Express is due soon

Yes, Nick, Tropicana is a big client for CSX, and normally, I see the Tropicana Express when I'm on it's route. I don't know specifics, but I beleave it stops in Baldwin, FL for a crew change (I've seen it go in, and is delayed for about 10 min. or so normally on the come-out)and I know it passes through Folkston, Ga (I've been there when it came through.) I also like Folkston, because it sees plenty of main-line traffic (58 trains/day, 8 of whitch are Amtrak passenger trains) but I'll just plan on staying in Florida for now. I'll try to find photos of the facility so I can try to model it. Thanks for the lead (under my nose, but I completely missed it)

Lay some track

 I have to agree with other posts. If you have a basic plan, lay some track and start running, that way you will find what works and what doesn't, what industries you like and what type of operating interests you the most.

I've built several layouts, and planned my home layout for several years. After running it for a few years I'm about to completely rebuild the main yard. Never be afraid of changing track around. At least I haven't ballasted this part!

Mike Ruby

Help With Figuring Out A Layout

I'd caution you against falling into the trap of paralysis by analysis. By that I mean spending so much time trying to avoid mistakes and picking the perfect industry that you don't start on the layout.  Using the tools already mentioned (Bing, Google, etc.) you could do a virtual flyover of Jacksonville and have a pad filled with representative industries in an hour.  Pick a few and start with those.  In modern times industrial tenants change constantly so if you change your mind later and want to swap in industries it would be realistic.

There is an excellent track plan in the July issue of Model Railroader on page 38 that would fit in a garage.   This could easily be adapted to the modern era by changing industries to the more modern one.   Some representative industries for your area and era would be: modern logistics warehouses (box cars), food warehouses (box cars, reefers, corn syrup tank), LPG facilities (tank), plastics plants (hoppers), etc.

My suggestion would be to clean out the garage, get the bench work up and track down leaving reasonable footprints for industries, and get started.  Get started BUILDING.  Don't worry about it being perfect, it won't be.  I, nor any of the other responders have the perfect layout, but we forge ahead nonetheless.

Lance Mindheim

visit the Downtown Spur http://www.lancemindheim.com

Excellent advice

Excellent advice, Lance.

Kind of makes me think of the Reverse Running coming in the next issue: Get off the computer and do some modeling!

If you understand how we learn you know it's by making mistakes. So go make some mistakes - and have fun in the process ... there's almost no mistake you can make that isn't correctible in some way - and once you know the pitfalls, you get better at the hobby and it gets even more fun!

I also notice that when I start modeling, the tips, posts or articles I would have just glossed over now suddenly become very relevant!

Agreed

Both Lance and Joe are right on the money.  I'm no longer stuck in analysis paralysis but I'm not laying track yet either.  I "listened" to Joe and others repeat this message over and over and I finally realized they were right.  You can't plan the "perfect" railroad so just dive in and get started already

The sooner you start the better.  If you can't begin building a layout right away, build turnouts or structures, etc.  Anything to get you started DOING the hobby.  The best way to get motivated is to lay track but do something.  When you do, take some pictures and tell us about what you did.

Water in my basement after torrential rains has stalled my hobby activity but I'll be back at it sometime this week hopefully.

I'm always working, dispite no layout

 This may please most of you out there, as I will say that I have not completely become "Coutch-potato", and I still wether and detail (not in that order) locomotives, rolling stock, and structures.  I also do "High-tech" railroading with train simulators, like Micro Soft's Train Simulator, and The Auraun Trainz simulator. Yes, Both can be technically called No-Space railroading, as all you need is the space of 1 E-machine.  I have been toying around with building my own train layouts in Trainz, and it has helped the decision-making. Still have no clue how to get those free download locomotives,though.

Limited Space

CSXrailfan - Have you given any thought to T-Trak?

I can hear the good ole HO boy's laughing now! I am "realestate" challenged (not much space allocated from she who must be obeyed). So, I stumbled upon the Unofficial T-Trak site and now I have a layout that will fit atop an old dinning room table. 8 modules that can be expanded, and as I am learning from the T-Trak Sub that I belong to - you can model yards, industry etc. on modules.

As for a layout plan - when I got into this a year or so ago - a friend told me model what you know. I grew up on the edge of the Pembina Valley in Manitoba, so I have a small town, grain farm, schale pit, hills, scrap yard, bulk oil dealer (all things in and around my home town) on my little layout.

It's a great learning tool - especially when you enjoy scratch building your structures.

T-track?

T-tyrack- is it that Japaneese 1/450 scale that costs close to an arm? (No, I'm not insulting you or your scale for me, it really will cost an arm.)

        I think I have seen it at recent train shows ( I like the price for a city block, $11.00, but the trains and track cost scared me away) and it's amazing how small a layout can get. I don't think T-track will be the best fit for me, but I can move down to N-scale ( I have a 6-foot long shelf, begging for a layout, in my bedroom)That can be a temporary (if not perminant) solution.

       I'll keep thinking about it, and playing around with trackplans on the Auraun Trainz program (as long as my computer holds out) and figuring out what I like.