Traffic would be dominated by

Traffic would be dominated by westbound coal loads and eastbound empties. Loads would need helpers from Sheridan to Parkman. In addition, manifest, intermodal, and grain unit trains are common. I am attempting to be somewhat faithful to the prototype, albeit with the necessary compression. 

There is a surprising amoung of switching available given the few small industries that are modeled. 

This will be my third layout, but the first time I have set out to follow a specific prototype. I enjoy all aspects of model railroading, but the hobby comes to life when your layout is operated, and this one will have lots of staging on a lower deck that also connects the two ends of the layout. In addition this is the first time I have avoided a duckunder or drop bridge. Excited to get started!

Jim

Nice plan!

I like the flow of your trackplan. Very nice.

I'll be following along!

Another follower

Great start Jim!  Like Bill, I'll definitely be watching your progress.  Looks like a great plan - nice and simple, with a very prototypical feel to it.  Is this HO scale or N?

Thanks

This will be HO. My current layout occupies the approximately 16 by 19 area on the left side of the drawing. Ceiling and lighting is done there. I will have to tear the old layout out, but I have torn down layouts before. It's way quicker than building. However, I have to prepare the rest of the area by relocating some shelving and installing ceiling tiles, etc. in that section. Pro tip from my first layout building attempt-don't build a layout then try to install a ceiling over it. 

One thing I have learned from my last two attempts is to not try and cram too much in, so I'm glad that you find it simple, Joe. The layout should provide me the ability to run a train when the mood strikes, whether it be mainline or switching, while at the same time keeping a group of 4 or 5 entertained during formal operating sessions. At least that's the goal.

A somewhat developed layout concept sure helps motivate a guy while he is doing the grunt work that precedes the fun part though. 

Jim, I just saw this.  I have

Jim,

I just saw this.  I have lots of comments/questions. 

In general I like the plan. 

Comments:

Is this CTC or track warrant?

What is your design train length?  From the plan I am guessing 17'?

Do you have a preliminary lineup of the trains you would run in an op session?  It would be a good idea to put that down on paper and figure out how they would run to see if it results in an op session you like.

What is the minimum sceniced area curve radius?  It looks like about 36".  I'm sure that 2000 era equipment will run on that radius but it will look a lot better on 48" radius, especially on the outside curve between Sheridan and Kiewit.  I like that the aisles are nice and wide but I'd try to get 48" radius curves.  If you cant I'd shoot for 42".  It makes a big difference whether the curve is an inside or outside curve.  An inside curve can be tighter and still look OK because you don't see the exposed rail on long equipment.  On my peninsula the outside curves are 42" and they look good with 40' cars but the 80' passenger cars don't look all that great.  At the end of Yakima Canyon the tight 180 degree curve is 30" and it doesn't look any worse with the passenger cars than the 42" outside curves.  If you want to run some of your stuff on my layout to get a feel for what different curves look like just let me know.  I have everything from 30" to 72"

Does the helper only run from Sheridan to Parkman?  Is it upgrade all the way?  Does it run light the other direction?

I like that it is a single visible deck.  One of the main things I don't like about my layout is that it is double deck but that is also because of my bad back.  If I didn't have the back problems I might not think it is as much of an issue but still I think it makes a world of difference when a layout is at the "right" height which of course is different for different height people.

Jon Bratt had a layout that in concept was similar to yours.  It is the NP layout with the multi part op session video I put on youtube.  He had a helix on each end of the layout with staging connecting the two ends on a lower level.  He did include some of the lower level as visible mainline but he did that after the design was done, during construction.  It worked well but like any place a helix is used it's a lot of time spent running a train in a non realistic environment, one of the things I don't like about my layout, and with this type of design you do it on both ends of the run.  Do you have an idea of the heights for the layout and staging?  I would recommend about 12" of separation if you don't intend any sceniced areas on the lower level.  That is the minimum to be able to easily reach in to get at equipment but it minimizes the helix run.  It's a balance. More separation is nice but the price is more helix run.  I think 12" is a good compromise.  Mine is less but I didn't originally have the staging where it ended up, I made some big changes during construction and the height was dictated by already constructed angle iron brackets that couldn't realistically be moved.  Jon's layout was NP but included the CB&Q line that ran south from Laurel.  He modeled it as far as Thermopolis. 

It might be nice to work in a turning loop in the lower level staging under the peninsula.  The coal would generally just move loads one direction and empties the other so you wouldn't need to turn coal trains but it might be nice to be able to turn some of the other trains for re staging and it's always nice to have someway to turn an entire train.

Your helixes are 5' diameter which means about 28" track radius.  That is pushing it for long trains of 2000 era equipment.  I would make sure you test that radius.  My helix inner track is about 34" but I also run shorter 40' long equipment on long freight trains and I have less than NMRA vertical clearance because I designed for 1955 era equipment so my grade is only about 1.5% in the helix.

This i probably more of a detail but I saw on google maps that they still have the turntable at Sheridan and it looks like it is still in use.  What do they turn?  Snow removal equipment?  I like turntables and it's not often that you can have them on a layout like this in a rural are in the modern era and be doing prototype modeling.  I'd say try to work it in.

What is done at Sheridan?  I'm guessing it is used primarily to add helpers and that the yard is mostly to accommodate switching of the industries, similar to my yard at Ellensburg?

We can talk on Sunday.  I'll probably have more questions by then.

Phil 

Good Questions

Phil:

According to what I have learned, this section of railroad was train order until around 1985-1986, when it became CTC. Never was TWC. However, I would operate it with Track Warrants initially, not sure I would ever signal but its a possibility. 

17' should give me 2 big units up front, about 20 cars, and a pair of helpers (with a fuel tender in the middle if I'm lucky). Still need to do some testing on this. 

Min radius is a balancing act. I really want to keep a minimum of 3' aisles, but there are a couple of spots where I might be able to cheat a little. I will play with it on the computer and see if I can get that turnback curve up to 42" radius and squeeze the Kiewit siding down to 30", which would make the main about 33" there. 

I have learned to not like helixes, especially in the middle of the run. That is how my layout is set up now, and the helix is hidden as well which makes it even worse. On this design, the helixes would not actually be part of the work, and the train will be visible while making the trip as well. Also these will be 2 turns to drop about 8". then use a grade to get the rest of the separation between main deck and staging. They will likely be 30" radius, as that is what my current model is and I haven't had any issues with operating a train up or down. This includes 18 car grain unit trains. 

Turntable-I would really like to include it. I think it will fit, but I have gone back and forth. Will definitely leave a spot for it on the plan. We really need to discuss this as I need good advice on that issue. It was used to turn locos in my era (and still, I think) when matching up helper sets.

Sheridan in 2000 had an interesting mix of traffic. I will share what I know with you this weekend. Should be a good mix of pickups and setouts by through freights, especially the DENBIL and BILDEN. It will definitely keep the yard switcher busy during op sessions. 

First time I have gone into layout construction with a vision of what I want to end up with! Exciting! We'll talk more this weekend for sure.

Jim

Jim, Sounds like you've

Jim,

Sounds like you've thought a lot about this.  I like the idea of trying to balance the radius/appearance of the outside curve vs the inside curves.  The longer the equipment the more difference it will make.

Now we just need to get about half a dozen more operations oriented layouts going in this area.

Phil

Wow, two helixes.  Track plan

Wow, two helixes.  Track plan could not be done with a single helix?

Could be done with one helix

But I can't figure a way to make it a simple continuous run, and not have any duckunders/lift outs/swing gate. Do not want those things. The helixes will be simple two turn affairs. I have built a helix before and these should not pose too much of a problem. The space over the helix at Sheridan will be well utilized. Can't say the same for the other one though. 

Jim

Big Horn Sub Progress

I just noticed that I left this thread hanging, and it's been nearly a year. In that time I have managed to get room prep done, build all the benchwork, lay the homasote spline roadbed and track, and get a good portion of the wiring done. In addition I have staging for about 10 trains, with the coal trains 20 cars long and grain, manifest, and intermodal about the same. 

There were some minor changes to the trackplan but I've been quite faithful to what is posted above. I'll see if I can find an updated version and post it. 

Zero scenery work has been completed. The initial operating session is still in the future as I want to get a scenery base in place along all the visible track to protect equipment from taking the long trip to the floor in case of derailment. I'm using the cardboard strip and red rosin paper method to construct "glueshell" scenery base. I do have the DCC system and Loconet installed and run trains on occasion. 

There is still so much to do! This layout is taking a long time to complete, but I'm trying to take my time and do it right, or fix my mistakes as I go. 

Here's a shot of the shove to Kiewit with coal hoppers to be loaded. To avoid the runaround move, the crew is using a caboose as a shoving platform. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/look4trains/31494676563/

Jim

Great progress

Your spline roadbed looks great. Would you share how you made these and the wall brackets as well? I really like the open plan with lots or rural running. Very simple and clean. 

First Operating Session

Yesterday was the first op session on the Big Horn Sub. I prepped to the best of my ability. While the prototype is controlled by CTC, we used track warrants since I'm nowhere close to a signal system. 

Here's the train lineup I had planned.

I had three operators present. The inaugural train kept two of them busy for the first few minutes of the session, as it was a westbound loaded grain train which requires a couple of SD40-2's shoving on the rear for a clean run up Parkman Hill. 

Given the relatively short distances of the runs, I was concerned we would run out of trains before we ran out of time, but instead it was the other way around. The single track main and time required to issue track warrants made the hour and half pass quickly, and only half the work got done. 

The railroad ran fairly well, only one short (derailment of a loco at a turnout) and two cars banished to the RIP track (workbench). All three of the operators were experienced, one is a full time railroader and the other two heavily involved in the tourist railroad in town. 

Car forwarding was by switchlist, prepared ahead of time by hand. I know that there is room for improvement here but for now it works. The Track Warrants, on the other hand, are enough to drive me nuts. I need to develop a better system for "tracking" who has permission where in a graphical format as trying to keep it straight in your head is a bad idea. I'm thinking a whiteboard with dry erase markers might be my next test. I could "highlight" the track section that a particular warrant has tied up, then just erase them as they are released or voided. 

Things I learned from this first session:

• Name more locations on the railroad, particlarly the staging yards, tracks in these yards, and switches at each end.
• I need mileposts.
• Figure out how yard limits should work. They can extend past the yard. 
• Get every coupler adjusted perfectly (like that will ever happen).

Most important thing-I had fun and I think each person who operated had fun as well. They all expressed interest in coming back. Next session will be better based on what we learned this time. 

Jim

 "I need to develop a better

That sounds like a nice simple  way to do it to me. You could make a permanent track schematic on the board with colored tape and put milepost and station name labels then use erasable markers for the operating session track warrants info.......DaveB