Greg Williams GregW66

I've been at this model railroading thing since I was 10 and I am nearly 50. In some ways I am still very much a newbie. I have been in and out of the hobby several times and I am trying to find my niche. I do like building structures and models in general. I don't find myself attracted to ultra detailed models. I admire those that do but I am very satisfied with a "good enough" approach to models. I do very much enjoy electronics (my previous vocation) and DCC is a ton of fun for me. Mostly installing decoders and I am about to venture into lighting effects with tiny LEDs. I don't have a layout and so here comes my dilemma. 

I have limited space, a small room. I have posted about that before and got some really great ideas from you folks, especially Bill Brillinger who designed something very nice for me. It was great but is designed to fit a particular space and configuration. I expect to move in the near future (about 5 years) and I'd very much like to take the layout with me. 

As before, my requirements are continuous run. This is especially important as I want to get into the installation and programming of DCC with sound. The recent Trainmasters TV episode with Lok Sound decoders showcasing an installation tailored to Mike Canfalone opened my eyes to see that there is much to be done in the programming world. Something of great interest to me. Having to worry about switching direction after just a few feet would be difficult to fine tune things like momentum, chuff etc... Also I like to watch trains run. I'm silly like that.

So I have turned my sights to the old 4x8 with an oval. However, I would very much like to have some switching possibilities. I am a complete newbie to operation, never been to an operating session. (I live far from any active model rails with an operating layout). The latest issue of Model Railroader shows a nice 12x15" shelf switching layout and I am intrigued. So I present to you what I have come up with along with the inspiration for that layout. I wish I could find where I got the inspiration from on the internet but a google image search reveals nothing. My apologies to the original artist. 

I seek comments on how such a layout could be operated along with comments in general on the layout. I'll post the images in a comment so they won't have to load at the top of each page, assuming this results in enough comments to go to a second page!

Greg Williams
Superintendent - Eastern Canada Division - NMRA
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Greg Williams GregW66

trackplans

 

My plan:4x8.jpg 

The Inspiration:

4by8.jpg 

Greg Williams
Superintendent - Eastern Canada Division - NMRA
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trainmaster247

Maybe an around the walls...

...with a balloon track at each end would work. It would add in auto-reversing technology and lots of other things. (Try looking up the Gypsy Trolley Line layout)

23%20(2).JPG 

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ctxmf74

The Inspiration:

  Hi Greg,  I sketched up that track plan. Must have been long ago because I don't recall the thread it was for( or even the discussion group). Looks like someone wanted to build an HO gauge snap track type layout though.  If you can find a bit more room expanding the layout to 5 by 9 for HO would be nice so the curves could be widened a bit. The 4 by 8 version would work great for N scale BTW.  We were discussing a neat 4 by 8 layout last week if you can find the thread. It was also on youtube so you might find it by searching for 4 by 8 layout on youtube? .....DaveB

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Greg Williams GregW66

@DaveB

It's a small world. I know it was years ago when I found it and saved it all these years. Thanks for speaking up and thanks for your inspiration. I hope you don't mind me reposting the artwork. 

Greg Williams
Superintendent - Eastern Canada Division - NMRA
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MikeC in Qld

I agree with Dave B about

I agree with Dave B about widening it to a 9x5 if you can. That's what I used to have and it worked well. H0/00

I could run my 6 axle locos no problem.

Are you thinking of having a full length diagonal scenic divider?  It also worked well for me, and gave the impression of there being two entirely different locations. Supporting the backdrop wasn't easy though. It would have been better if I had two sheets of board, one for each side, with the upright legs of supporting brackets sandwiched between the two, with the horizontal legs buried under scenery.

The diagonal backdrops are obviously longer, and they tend to help you make better use of space as sidings angle in.

Mike

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Bill Brillinger

BEER LINE

Have you looked at the BEER LINE that MR published a number of years ago. It was a great concept of a modular layout that could be assembled in a number of configurations including a 4x8.

http://mrr.trains.com/how-to/project-railroads/2013/03/lights-for-the-beer-line
/> http://mrr.trains.com/how-to/track-plan-database?size=&scale=&type=&q=beer+line

Bill Brillinger

Modeling the BNML in HO Scale, Admin for the RailPro User Group, and owner of Precision Design Co.

Reply 0
Pcfan60

Check out...

 

Greg, 

also check out the 4x8 plans for my Hitop branch in that issue.....

i have 8 switching locations on the layout 

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IrishRover

Single track?

I would suggest that you make it a single track main line; the double will look cramped, IMVHO.  That wouls also allow switching on the outside of the oval or the other, or some staging hidden behind/in  a building or scenery.

That switchback on the upper left will not be easy to work, although, if shortened, could be a good place to store a switcher.

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Mike MILW199

What I did in roughly 4x8, HO scale

Here is an overview of my table at home.  Roughly 4x8.  One end is 4x4, then narrow to 3 feet wide, to get by the concrete block pillar that holds the place up.  8 feet long.  Hollow core door on the other side, allows for mainline corner and yard.

West end.

Northwest corner, where I usually sit and operate from.  

Southeast corner.  I plan to put a view block in this area, such that the main line wouldn't be visible from the northwest corner, where the chair is.

Northeast corner, tucked under the stairs a bit.  

Basic loop, to fit in the space available.  18 inch radius turns, except for the outer loop-siding-yard lead, which is around 22 inch radius.  Small 5-track yard, with run-around and engine track.  The industry tracks on the inside can have any arrangement, but having most facing one way and one facing the other way adds to time needed for switching. 

With this arrangement, I can have a train orbiting the loop, and have a crew yard switching, with a fairly long lead.  I usually sit in the chair near the yellow tower, and can reach most of the switches from there.  Standing up allows reaching the rest of the switches, as it is about table height.  A view block is planned for the single track turnback loop, probably some trees or retaining walls.  That would make it seem trains are going somewhere, and would hide that part while switching the inside.  

For an operating plan, the yard would get staged or fiddled at the start of the day.  Cars would be pulled from the yard tracks to best switch the customers on the inside.  This may entail shoving out of the yard one way or the other, to have the cars on the proper end of the engine for spotting and pulling.  On the prototype I am loosely basing this on, the yard is maybe a mile away, with 2 road crossings.  The customers get switched, then the crew heads back to the yard, putting the cars away as directed.  In busy times, the customers might get more than one switch a day, and the yard crews on the unmodeled portion would be pulling and placing cars on the yard tracks (fiddling).  

I am planning to change the inside to replicate an industrial area that was in North Milwaukee, which had probably 5-6 customers packed into a small area, accessed by a switchback that held 7 cars total.  Where the two tracks are side by each, I plan to add a 3rd down the middle, with a diamond to get to the spur facing the other way.  The track down the middle won't have cars spotted, just a headroom track.  

Prototype photo of this arrangement. 

There was another diamond in the track that curves off the left, and that track went between some curved buildings.  Lots of customers in a small space.

In the 1960s, there were 80 switch crews a day in the Milwaukee Switching District.  Some background on how it was here:  http://milwaukeeroadarchives.com/Construction/1969%20Engineering%20Dept%20Employee%20Handbook/Milwaukee%20Switching%20District.pdf  My layout would represent maybe a mile between North Milwaukee and American Can Yard.  I have worked this area in 1:1 scale, which has had most of the industry removed since the 1960s.  It is kind of amazing how much has been ripped out.  

This is the plan of my table at home.  You could probably find something similar to replicate.  I think that finding a small compact area with a multitude of customers would be what you are looking for, with a continuous run option.  I feel DCC is more required in a small space like this if you want to have more than 1 engine going at a time.  It sure beats flipping switches all the time.

I hope all this helps give you some motivation.  

Mike  former WSOR engineer  "Safety First (unless it costs money)"  http://www.wcgdrailroad.com/

Reply 0
Bremner

I like this one

http://www.layoutvision.com/id49.html

am I the only N Scale Pacific Electric Freight modeler in the world?

https://sopacincg.com 

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choops

I like the layout plan you

I like the layout plan you have in your second post.

I would strongly recommend that when you build your layout you cut the table in half into two 2X8 foot sections.  When you move and want to build a larger layout you can reuse all the work you have done.  I read an article by Ian Rice the other day showing this.

Steve

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ctxmf74

"I would suggest that you

Quote:

"I would suggest that you make it a single track main line; the double will look cramped, IMVHO."

     The reason I used double track is when one starts running a small layout like this the whole thing essentially ends up as one yard so the double track is needed to be able to move around and work the various spots. It basically gives two runaround spaced around the loop plus a place to park some cars out of the way when working the spurs. The way to make it not look cramped is to leave the scenery sparse and open as much as possible and detail it with small things that don't take up a lot of space such as man holes, storm drains, power vaults, hydrants, etc......DaveB

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Jackh

4 X 8's

Hi Greg, If you can pull out plans for the Beer Line project RR that Bill mentioned it may give you some good ideas on how to take something like a 4x8 and make it expandable in the future.

Another favorite of mine was the Break the Rules layout plan that MR came out with in the 90's I think. It is in one of their plan books also.

Ian Rices 1st book had some good 4x8 ideas too.

Last comment??? if you are going to be running small locos like SW's or similar size don't be afraid to use #4's and sharp curves. Both are prototypical despite what we usually see in published plans. In my years up in Minneapolis area I found 2 wheel screeching curves at the end of which are industries.

Jack

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dkaustin

My favorite compact plan is found here...

It is listed as a compact plan, minimum space with operation.  It is a Bill Baron design.  

https://www.google.com/search?q=track%20plan%20Buckley%20%26%20Onarca%20RR&gws_rd=ssl

One could build a diagonal ridge line across it to hide the town on the upper level.  It has 9 trestles too.  The low one going across the lake is a pile trestle.it has 7 right hand and 8 left hand turnouts.  It is a short line railroad that can be set in any era.  If you pocket the lower level under Onarca you could have some hidden staging.  It would be a minimum staging area, but you could get three tracks under there.

The lower level can represent the mainline run while the upper level represent the daily branch mine run.  The industry on the lake can be a lumber mill or other type of mill.

There is a better description here. http://pnr.nmra.org/6div/highball/201108.pdf

The author points out flaws and ways to improve operation by making a few tweaks like run around tracks.

Den

 

n1910(1).jpg 

     Dennis Austin located in NW Louisiana


 

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Benny

...

I think your plan as drawn will work very nicely.  You don't need to go pulling up "the professionals'" plans here.

--------------------------------------------------------

Benny's Index or Somewhere Chasing Rabbits

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Ken Hutnik huthut

Alternatives to the 4x8 in similar space

There are some good things to consider in the article here: http://www.layoutvision.com/id28.html

Also, somewhere, I saw a plan where a triangle was cut out of a 4x8 sheet of wood, and then reattached at an odd angle.  This allowed for a modified plan that was not so rectanglular.  Unfortunately, I cannot locate it.  Likely it was in one of the MR articles or books.


Ken
My projects: Ken's Model Trains
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rsn48

Compromise - L shaped layout

Why not use your space for a sectional L shaped layout, yes I know you want a continuous run but it gets boring quickly on a 4 by 8.  Instead with sectional design, you are not only building for something to run today but also useable with your future layout.  Its a compromise but so is having a 4 by 8 that will be basically throw away latter.  By compromising now, you future layout will be more quickly built because you are working on it now.

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ctxmf74

" Its a compromise but so is

Quote:

" Its a compromise but so is having a 4 by 8 that will be basically throw away latter "

     A 4 by 8 doesn't necessarily have to be thrown away, John Allen kept his original G&D small loop layout and incorporated it into his later large layout.  The big advantage of a 4 by 8 is the flexibility of operations made possible by the connection from end to end.Passing sidings can have long leads at both ends due to the circular design. Real railroads used this same idea in the Bronx to build some float yards on relatively small parcels. The main problem with a small loop layout is the radius might not be suitable for larger locos but they'd look out of place on a linear small shelf layout too. A 5 by 9 table with double track and crossovers to create passing tracks and industrial spurs out into the center of the table works very well and might be as much layout as many people would ever want to build......DaveB  

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rsn48

Not only John Allen but a

Not only John Allen but a friend of mine as well.  But as he reflects on his layout he says he would have been better off to start over and not utilize it.  For example, maximum radius, you're pretty much stuck with what the radius's on the 4 by 8 can do.

Secondly it occupies a footprint in the layout that may have been more effectively used otherwise.

Thirdly it looks like an smaller rectangular layout that was used, and not a layout plan that visually looks good.

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Prof_Klyzlr

PnP =/= Continuous run?

Dear ???

Quote:

...a sectional L shaped layout, (but) I know you want a continuous run...

Who said a PnP shelf layout could not have a "continuous run"?

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/5122

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/21030

http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/trainshuttle.html

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/15506

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/25045

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/25609

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PS

Quote:

a continuous run ... gets boring quickly

If we accept the premise that sometimes one just wants to "relax and watch 'em roll thru the scenery",
a "continuous (hands-off, no user interaction required) run" functionality can very much justify it's existence on any sized layout...

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trainmaster247

How about a pair of 4'x8's cut in half and positioned like this?

28149%29.jpg 

23%20(2).JPG 

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Greg Williams GregW66

One of my interests is DCC

One of my interests is DCC conversion and programming. I think I need a loop to do speed matching and break in. I have a couple of ideas I want to try, including computer control of the layout. By that I mean turnouts etc... This will essentially be a test loop for my ideas. I am hoping to be able to explore some operations (switching) with it to see if I like that aspect of the hobby.

Greg Williams
Superintendent - Eastern Canada Division - NMRA
Reply 0
shortliner

If you want a continuous run

If you want a continuous run and some switching, have a look at some of the Gateway NMRA layouts here http://www.gatewaynmra.org/gateway-nmra-project-model-railroads/ The ones I would think most suitable for your requirements are IX, X, and Museum.

Also see http://mrr.trains.com/how-to/track-plan-database#4 where you may find something that will suit

If you can get a copy I'd recommend looking at Conrail's Hallsville Pa layout in MR October 1995 for a very usable layout and an idea of how to cut a 4 x 6 board and re-assemble it to get a larger oval

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Station Agent

Small layouts

The early part of my model train hobby was filled with small layouts.

Here's a 5' X 9' built with commercial turnouts.  Lots of switching, street running, an interchange and even a small yard.  It was featured in the November 1996 RMC.d_aerial.jpg 

This is the benchwork for the lower level.  It was designed to tip up on hinges on a cart to be moved, so the structure was made extra deep.

nd_lower.jpg 

I also built a similar plan on a 4' X 6' platform.  All the turnouts were handlaid to fit.  There were 9 industries to spot cars at and it had a runaround track.  It even had a two-track staging yard underneath.  Clearly, there's a lot you can do in a small space.

4X6(1).jpg 

Barry Silverthorn

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