I personally don't like plaster cloth

I personally don't like plaster cloth. I prefer masking tape, painting it with some latex paint to give it some tooth, and then plastering over the tape.

Plaster cloth is both pricey and does funky things when it gets rewetted.

First your not using the

First your not using the right formulas your biggest problem is 3 parts glue to 1 part water-- Wrong it will float on the surface level and bubble and get a crusty looking and cause most of the problems your having.

Step One apply full strength white glue only to the outside beveled edges of the track with a small 1/2 wide paint brush and be neat. brush glue on only 6 to 8 inches at a time.

Step Two  then add ballast carefully only to the outside edges of the track and sweep the track outside with a soft 1/2 inch flat paint brush and do this to both sides of the track be careful to keep the ballast off the tops of the Ties and spread the ballast evenly and let this dry for 45 minutes to and hour. if you want you can do the outside of all your track first this acts as a barrier for the rest of your ballast work.

Step Three once this ballast has dried take a dust buster and vacuum up the excess ballast for using again if some of the outside didn't stick don't worry about it as it will be fine later after touch up..

Start with room temp water I keep a gallon Jug in the train room. Get a pump spray bottle like the scenic Sprayer made by Woodland Scenics. Fill the spray bottle half way with the room temp water. then fill the rest of the spray bottle with the Iso Alcohol and work in small areas maybe 18 inches at a time.

Before spraying you want you want all your mixes ready.

Now take and old Glue bottle 6 ounce size or a container with a tight fitting cap or even better if it has a twist top lid. add 25% white Glue75% water and add 2 to 4 drops of Dish soap to this container Then stir The mixture by hand for 2 minutes DO NOT SHAKE if you shake the mixture the soap will foam and bubble up and won't work properly it will cause the glue to float the Ballast and cause an air bubble under the ballast.

Now your ready to Ballast Between the rails. using a spoon or small scoop add dry ballast to the track center and with a Dry 1 inch wide flat paint brush spread the ballast through the first 18 inch section and allow ballast to to coat the outside of the track to catch all the light areas where you didn't get the ballast to stick in step one. Now only 18 inches should have ballast inside the rails.

Now you should already have the ballast only on the 18 inches your working with, don't spread the ballast for yards it's a waist of time and can cause you troubles.

First spray the 18 inch area with a light spray of the water/alcohol mix from 1 foot above the ballast and let it soak in for 20 seconds then add a second light spray Don't get in a hurry. Now your ready to soak the ballast with the spray so move in to about 4 to 6 inches from the ballast and start soaking the area don't get carried away and watch your not washing the ballast away.

The ballast should now be soaked through and ready for the Glue/Water/soap mix.

If your not using a glue bottle with a small tip dispenser then take an eye dropper and start at one end and slowly start applying the glue mixture a few inches at a time and watch as the ballast swells and sets back down  and watch that the mix is really soaking in and flowing out the bottom then move a few inches more and so on another few inches and let the ballast swell and drop and shrink back down until the first 18 inches is done.

Now inspect the track and with a tooth pick and your clean finger remove any ballast stuck to the rails and make sure all the Ballast is sucked down on the base and soaked through with glue.

From the time you spray the first shot of water/alcohol to the inspection the track must stay soaked.

If your plaster sheets are curling up that means you laid the plaster on a dry base and The Number one rule when using plaster on any surface is YOU MUST Soak all surfaces with water first that you apply plaster on or it peels up.

I have been using this system for almost 50 years and have never had anything but perfect Ballasted track. in fact I think ballast has always been the easy part of model railroading.  I Learned along time ago that if your ballast looks bad the rest of the railroad looks bad too.

Good luck and remember take your time.

One last thing go light with everything when ballasting around turnouts and switch points and spread some oil on all moving parts to keep the glue from fowling up your turnouts and while the ballast is drying keep moving the switch points and keep the area where the tracks move clear of glue and ballast.

There are a number of ways to ballast track This way has always worked great fo me others have different ways so you deside which is right for you.

Dan

Thanks for the tips

First Joe:  I Did almost all of my scenery base before I got your videos.  I like your method though.  In my defense, I am a trim carpenter/cabinetmaker, so I have occasional access to scraps of foam board for free.  BTW, that stuff is expensive, and as a tip, folks needing it may wish to hook up with a builder somewhere that uses it since they routinely toss enough scraps to be useful on a layout.  Also btw, I was able to save my trim ends of 1x material from jobs for use as benchwork.  It is mostly poplar, which is real nice to work with.  Go find a 4000+ sqft jobsite and ask if you can have their drops.  You would be suprised at how many 2' and less 1x material gets tossed in the trash!(perfect for high-narrow benchwork).  If I were to build another layout, I would use 3/4 birch plywood exclusively and pocket screw the joints.  Birch plywood scraps are easily had for free from any cabinet shop, and plywood is dimentionally stable.  As far as plaster cloth, I found some on the net from a medical? supplier.  I bought a 50lb box for something like $40.

To Dan,  Thanks for the extensive how-to reply!  I really needed some help, and from what you've written, I see where I'm going awry.  The "bubbling up" is exactly right.  Also, I have a tendancy to try to knock out really large sections of layout work at once, which has gotten me into trouble before.  Your suggestion of doing 18 inches at a time is right on.  I need to heed that advice in other layout endeavours too.  My plan is to try to work in 3' increments as far as general scenery goes.  Fortunately the track I ballasted at Grass Lake (the only section ballasted so far) is the highest on the layout at 73 inches, which is eye-level for me.  I know it sounds too high, but I have a triple deck layout (after building it, I dont recommend it).  The ballast actually  looks pretty good from the standard viewer position, but terrible if you,re on a step stool.  I'll try your technique on my next ballasting session.  Here are some photos of the ballasted sections at normal viewer positions:

Mike Lozensky

Hello Mike Glad I was able to

Hello Mike Glad I was able to help and from looking at your photo of the top deck Ballast, your right it looks good. I suggest that if it doesn't cause you any trouble or cause any cars to hang I would leave it alone and continue from that point and try the way I described to see if that works better for you , it should.

One more trick to eliminate your Plaster cloth peeling and curling;  if you buy some "Titebond II Premium Wood Glue" its an exterior water resistant wood glue that when used full strength and allowed to dry completely (Over Night) it will put a water proof barrier on the edge where you having the peeling troubles. Just use it like a paint and sealer and spread a 3 inch wide coat (half on the plaster cloth and Half on the wood along edge of your plaster cloth. then when it comes in contact with the ballast or anything else that has water in the mix it will totally eliminate the peel up and curling problem your experiencing where the plaster cloth wants to peel.

I Would  NOT use Titebond for my ballast glue 50%-50% mix!!! Stick with with Elmer's interior Carpenter's Wood Glue or regular White glue is even better for the Ballasting because if you ever wish to remove and reuse any section of track glued down wit it as well as the ballast should you ever like adding some turnouts for a siding or passing run around track all you will need do is soak the ballasted tracks with warm water and it will dissolve the white glue and make it much easier to make changes and at the same time the area under the ballast that has been sealed with the Titebond will not loosen or come up do to the water proof nature.  If you do use titebond to lay ballast you will destroy any track if you ever try to pry it up along with the wood and Base Ballast strip used no mater how much you soak it.

Dan.

Here's a ballasting video...

This is a great video on ballasting track done by one of MRH's subscribers, Denny, who as I understand it is taking a personal hiatus from the hobby currently.  Best regards to Denny and his family.

Ballasting and weathering N scale track

I found my Book or should I

I found my Book or should I say Note book of Modeling Formulas of what works and what didn't through out My years of model Railroad building and I had the Water to glue formula wrong it does agree with Joes Video #5 of 25% Glue and 75% water with 3-5 drops of Ivory liquid soap but, every thing else I told you Is correct or the formulas that have used and worked for me with very satisfying results

Dan

thanks Blue, great video segment

Blue.

I got a lot out of that video clip.  Will have to get my wife to get me a syringe (she's an RN).

Dan:  Thanks for the update on the formula.  I've ballasted with either 50/50 and 75/25, and know that the thin is the way to go.  It's much easier to remove the grains stuck on the ties and rails.  I'll try the trick on using titebond II to seal the plaster/spline interface.  I've got plenty of it on hand!

Mike Lozensky

Needle

A syringe with the right needle works, you can also use one of these.

A West Needle Applicator

One more tip - I add a little dirt color paint to the glue mix

The Mopac branchline I model was originally ballasted with cinders; when I first started putting them down I didn't like to stark blackness so I did two things 1) I added a little brown and gray ballast and 2) I add a few drops on my acrylic dirt color in the glue mix which tones down the black cinders and blends with the surrounding dirt color on the layout.   Last step is a sprinkle a little Woodland Scenics ground foam over the ballast to denote a few weeds growing up between the ties.   

Alcohol and rock ballast

I've had good luck using rock ballast rather than what ever it is that Woodland Scenics sells as ballast.  The WS stuff seems to 'float' a bit.

I've been using Smith and Sons limestone for mainline ballast (regretably no longer available but Scenic Express has some similar stuff) and Arizona Rock and Mineral for sidings/spurs.

I spread the stuff out carefully. I don't (usually) bother doing what Dan does - paint the sides of the roadbed with full strength white glue, I just add ballast until the roadbed (usually cork in my case) disappears).

When I bought my CMX clean machine (brass tank car with cleaning pad underneath it) it came with a syringe with a plastic hose attached. I use this suck up Isoprophyrl alcohol and carefully dribble it on the ballast until the ballast is saturated. I don't use a misting water bottle because I've never yet found one that didn't induce artillery bombardment effects do to spattering oversize water droplets. The alcohol has incredibly low surface tension and seeps into ballast (or anything else like ground foam) very quickly.

I dribble a 50/50 mix of white glue and water on the saturated ballast.

This stuff takes overnight to dry unaided, but if I set up a fan to blow (gently) on the scene it will dry in 4 or 5 hours.

This photo shows the contrast between the limestone and the AR&M yard mix...

I used to use plaster cloth but not any more (too expensive and too thin for me). If you're having trouble with plaster cloth curling up at the edges:

• did you use enough water when you installed it?
• did you smooth out the plaster where the cloth attaches to plywood or other stuff so that the plaster is fully 'mixed' with the water and so it will become 'intimate' with the other 'stuff'?
• plaster doesn't stick well to pink foam. If you need to do this, paint the foam with some cheap latex house paint first so the surface will hae some 'tooth' to it.?
• I found two layers of plaster cloth worked much better than one. I cut out squares of the stuff, held them in place (dry) over a chicken wire armature, then hit them with a spray bottle of water until they were wet enough. This avoided dribbles carrying plaster cloth from the water trough to the scenery.  The two layers made much sturdier thin-shell scenery than a single layer. Three layers would have been better but was too expensive for me.

Now I use either carved up pink foam or Joe Fugate's method of card board mesh covered with masking tape over which I apply a (roughly) 1/4" thick layer of US Gypsum No.1 Casting Plaster and Vermiculite mix (50/50 by volume). The thickness of the shell makes it pretty sturdy, and the vermiculite adds enough 'lite' pockets in the plaster so it can be drilled for tree mounting. An awl also works for small holes. I use a finger dipped in water to smooth the plaster just before it dries.

Cheers,

Charlie

Mister

Hand pump mister

That is a good idea!  I use one of these to spray garlic infused olive oil in the kitchen.  It delivers a very fine mist and works better than most spray misters I have ever used.  Why haven't I thought of using those for modeling before?!  DOH!  Good one Dustin!

The mister is the bomb for doing your own Caesar salad croutons and they blow away anything store bought.  Just don't mix the cooking mister with the layout mister

I'll chime in...

You've gotten some good advice so far.  I'll add some of my own ballasting experience to it.

One - mixing a 'wetting" agent into the diluted glue can be real trouble.  Alcohol and detergent both can cause the glue to curdle and refuse to stay properly mixed with the water.  If the ballast is properly soaked before applying glue, there is no real benefit to having the separate wetting agent in the glue mixture anyway. 

Second - Woodland Scenics ballast is very tricky to work with.  I think it's crushed walnut shells, and as such it is very light and tends to float.  If you don't handle it just right you'll get a messy ballast job regardless of how neat and careful you were when spreading the ballast dry.  I've use a lot of it to represent WP slag ballast on their Utah/Nevada mainline, but avoid it for any other track where I can use real rock.

I've found a good way to avoid the bubbling/floating problem is to restrict the use of the wetting agent so as not to saturate the ballast before applying glue - you have to leave some pore space for the ballast to absorb the glue.  I also don't like to use detergent as the wetting agent because it can form bubbles, which wreaks havoc with the lightweight WS ballast. 

Next, to keep from dislocating the ballast when gluing, I apply the diluted glue with a sprayer, and use a pretty thin dilution of 3:1 or more water:glue.  I got a decent quality sprayer intended as a houseplant mister, which delivers a nice even spray without big drops.  Again, watch while spraying for signs the ballast is reaching saturation and stop before you apply too much.  I use two or three applications of sprayed glue, with some intervening drying time between each one, and hit any areas of thick ballast with a final application of 50:50 dilution glue dribbled from a normal glue bottle once the whole thing has dried out for a day.

Another good source for a

Another good source for a cheap-o mister is a hand-pump hairspray bottle.  Use the hairspray for other scenery work as needed, but save the bottle for spraying ballast and such.  They can be had at dollar stores with the off-brand products.  These sprayers usually give a nice, fine mist which works great for applying "wet" water prior to gluing ballast.  They do tend to clog when spraying glue, which is where the houseplant mister comes in.

Thanks for all the tips

Thanks for all the tips guys.  I've taken a break from working on the layout so I can finish a few freight car projects I've had going.  I find it helpful to switch tasks to keep from getting burnout!  Just wanted to let you know I'm still monitoring this thread and plan to implement your suggestions soon.  When I do, I'll be posting pictures and comments.

Mike

It helps to be more prototypical

Instead of nut shells, use natural rock like the prototype.  It also helps to have a more natural ballast slope like 1-to-2 or more rather than the typical 1-to-1 usually provided by model roadbed producers.

I think that I have used

I think that I have used every type of application mentioned in this thread and for those of you that have an old air brush they work really well for appling the wetting agents followed by the eye dropper with the glue mixture. I haven't ever tried blowing the glue mixture with the air brush but I may try it sometime.

Dan

Ballasting

This ballast is Smith and Son #50 Gray Limestone (they are still supplying material). I used to use alcohol to wet it but it dissolved some of my rail paint so now I use Elmers white glue and water (2 parts water,1 part glue,with a drop or two of detergent). I don't pre glue but just carefully spread ballast with a small block of soft foam rubber, wet it, and apply drops of glue using an earwash bottle with a piece of brass tube to reduce the opening. I have no problems with floating or disturbed ballast. Use a fine spray mister like is used for women's hair products and be gentle when you first start with dry ballast. If the ballast wants to float hit it with a few more spray blasts-you will quickly figure out how wet it needs to be.

Correction to last post

I meant to say that for wetting the ballast I switched from alcohol to water with the Super Wet  additive from Scenic Express in the hairspray mister.

Ballasting help

I wanted to use Arizona Rock and Mineral on my N scale layout till I found out I would have to buy  a minimum of 6 bags (layout is not THAT big).So I settled for the WS mixed grey fine I already had .Ballasting is not a favorite passtime but this time it is going very well.

Anyway the way I do it is I start out wetting the area before I do anything ,the wet seems to help hold the cork in place.I start ballasting by pouring the ballast down the center of the track and lately have been using a acid brush on edge down the center .This levels the ballast and pushes the excess over the sides of the rail to form the shoulders.Sometimes it will take a few apps to get the ballast the way I want it.Using a mister I wet the ballast just enough to make it damp.

I will let the ballast set for a few minutes then I apply my glue mix.I use roughly a 50-50 mix with a few drops of Dawn dish soap.I apply enough that it is visable,let it set till the glue soaks in then do one more glue app.Once that one drys I clean off the tops of the ties and the railhead.

By no means do I concider this THE method to use but it is THE method that works for me.

another applicator!

First... WS is painted walnut shells, and rises when wet.  I found crushed rock [from Scenic Express?] to be much better to place.

I found the syringe method to be frustratingly  s l o w ...  so I re-purposed a bottle for my glue applicator.

If you're so lucky as to have a contact lens wearer in the house, you may be familiar with the fitting on the top of the lens-solution bottle- similar to a nasal-spray applicator... but on a 12 oz bottle.

I used this with diluted glue...  about 2/3 full... and placed the bottle Flat between the rails.  I Slid the bottle along, dispenser tip trailing, and gently squeezed until the glue dribbled out behind the bottle.     The tip Will get clogged, be prepared to rinse it well - using a pin or wire in it will deform it sufficiently to alter its performance.  

One more thing to try... replace the (alcohol or detergent) wetting agent  ... I  got better results with a few drops of Rain-X.

-Peter

Beginner's Luck

I personally have just begun ballasting my N scale track, and use a very simple method. I am using Woodland Scenics fine gray on my main track, but I had some gravel added to my driveway recently so I sifted out some fine gravel with a kitchen strainer. The fine mesh screen on a small plastic handle, very inexpensive device. Since it is very time consuming to create this super fine real gravel, I only use it on sidings and in scenes where greater realism are required. But I bought some very large disposable eye droppers on EBay, mostly for paint, but found them handy for ballasting. I shape my WS walnut shell gravel carefully with a foam paint brush, the beveled edge of it is perfect for shaping the shoulders and cleaning off the tie tops. Once it is in place, I carefully drip straight rubbing alcohol down the center of the tracks, watching to see when the edges are wet. Once you see the wetness at the outside edge without it running past that point, that's enough wetting. Then I take Woodland Scenics Scenic Cement, a very thin white liquid used for securing scenery, and just do the same thing as I did with the alcohol, and just drip it down the center until I see it wetting the outside edges, I drip it slowly on the outside of the rails right on top of the ties, so it won't wash away my gravel shape. Don't over apply, as soon as you see the white color of the glue reach the outside edges, stop. It takes forever to dry, 48 hours before you it is hard, so after about 8 to 16 hours you can easily pick away any stray gravels that are up against the rails. In 48 hours it is hard as a rock! While this is the standard method that they instruct you to do on the Woodland Scenic website, or some such place where I saw it used, it works! You just have to use patience and keep dripping it one drop at a time, and not squirt the glue or alcohol, or you will start to wash away your shaping work. I prefer to work in about 1 foot sections. and you would be surprised at just how quickly you can cover that much area with the large eye dropper, it only takes about two eye droppers full to cover a foot with the Scenic Cement.

Having said that, it is tedious, no fun, and requires the patience of Job. But it works, and I am very happy with the results I have gotten using this method, both with the nut shell WS gravel, and the home sifted real gravel. In a larger scale, you could use a larger sieve and make a lot more gravel from "Crush and Run" real gravel that you would use in your drive way or on a construction site. Looks fantastic and it's nearly free! Just time consuming. So as another beginner, I would just like to say that I got the hang of this method right off, the Scenic Cement goes a very long way, one bottle will do many a mile of track, and no mixing required. I've also heard that even after many years it will not yellow, and it dries invisible, no shine or sign of it after it dries. I tried it on a test piece of track, I glued some track to a piece of foam and tested this method first, before going on my layout, and the alcohol broke the glue holding my track down loose, and my flex track went all haywire! So use a water proof glue to secure your track down to your layout. I used thin beads of Goo cement in a tube, weighted my track down with can goods until it dried, and the alcohol did not dissolve it. So far so good! From one beginner to another, (whoever you may be)this worked for me.

Russell

SPSHASTAROUTE - Trees

Dear Mike-

This is off topic, but your trees (and backdrop) look terrific.

Can you explain how they were made?

Thanks,

Don

What I do

When it comes with ballasting, I try not to use the iso as I get mixed results sometimes.  With the glue I tend to do a 50/50 mix (white glue  to water) .  As for a wetting agent, I just use water mixed with a couple drops of dish soap and a misting bottle -get everything nice and wet, and if you are not sure, wet it again, then just dribble the glue in where you need it or use a eye drop.  I have not had any issues since.