Another factor to consider

We have a number of these T8 fixtures around our house.  The thing I have noticed is while they last between 5 to 8 years depending on use, the brightness and color quality deteriorates with time.  

That seems like it would be a critical factor in a layout room.

ed

LED spectrum

On another forum there was some discussion regarding LED lights and the discussion centered around LED's being a very limited spectrum of light.  Stuff is visible because it reflects a specific color of light, if that color of light doesn't hit it, it can't reflect it.  Green stuff looks black under red light because there is no green light to reflect.  Absence of light = black.

Natural light has the full spectrum.  Each different type of bulb produces a slightly different spectrum and some are broader than others.

Has anybody using LED lights noticed any changes in colors or things looking darker?  Is the spectrum broad enough to render colors "correctly".

I am also considering using LED lighting and it would be interesting to see if anybody actually using LED's has noticed anything different as far as a color shift.

Here's a couple of pictures

Both of these pictures were taken by the same camera from the same distance and the same framing of subject.  The first is Halogen lighting and the second is LED.  If you are using a computer to view these you can get a larger view by clicking on the pictures.

Track lighting with 50 watt Halogen lamps:

Michael Rose's LED board lighting

That's definitely a plus for LED

Rick, 

That's a pretty incredible difference, and is a straight-up vote for "daylight" LED lights if I've seen one. 

My layout is in a single car garage (that's probably never had a car parked in it) that only had three little incandescent bulbs in it originally. 

I put up six more surface mount fixtures (normal socket type) and ran wiring back to one of the outlets, that I'd put one of those light socket-plug into. 

Now I have 8 100W eq. "Daylight" 5000K LED lights in the room and it's both much brighter and whiter. 

Color temperature

You need to specify what kind of lights (Incandescent, Fluorescent, or LED) AND color temperature you're talking about. Both bits of information are necessary to making a decision on what is best.

Warm white (around 2700K) is what we're typically used to seeing from incandescent lights. They're also available in LEDs.

Cool white (around 4000K) is available in all three types of bulbs.

Daylight (5000K) gives the truest color spectrum. They also appear to be brighter than the other color temperatures, but that's an illusion caused by being full-spectrum. A 60 Watt equivalent bulb will LOOK brighter in a daylight color temperature, even though it isn't really brighter than a 60 Watt equivalent bulb in a warm white.

I work in the industry at a place that specializes in light bulbs in a wide variety of color temperatures, styles, and types. We have a box with all three color temperatures of bulb showing the same scene, so that you can see the differences between them side by side.

Get the LED fixtures.. and replace the tube fixtures with LEDs while you're at it. Ignore wattage as it applies to light - compare lumens, not Watts. Watts are a measure of the actual amount of electricity used - for example some ballpark figures: a 100 Watt equivalent LED bulb puts out 1500 lumens, but only actually USES 14.5 Watts of electricity... as compared to 100 Watts for an incandescent bulb, or 27 Watts for a 100 Watt equivalent CFL. That's your cost of operating the lights, because you pay by the Watt for electricity.

Incandescents and fluorescents also add heat to the room... sometimes, a LOT of it, depending on the bulb and fixture. Might be good during the winter, but LEDs run MUCH cooler (less waste heat, and wasted electricity) for year-round comfort.

Don't forget to add in the costs of the ballasts for the fluorescent lights when you're figuring those in - they need to be replaced every few years, as well. LED replacements are available that will use the same ballast (to make for simpler conversions) but get the ones that don't use the ballast - just remove it when you install the LEDs.

There are magnetic LED replacements for fluorescent tube now that take about 10 minutes to install, you take the old ballast out, and the LED matrix attaches to the old fixture magnetically.

Barr Ceo, interesting

Barr Ceo, interesting discussion regarding light. Are these color temperatures typically found on all light bulbs or is it something that will need to be researched?

Rick, I notice a big difference between the two pictures but the second photo looks to me to have more of the color washed out like it is over exposed to me. That is not a critical comment on your lights or photo just that I have a bit of color blindness and the first photo looks better to me. It could also be the way my computer renders the photos. So since you are there does the photo match what you see? And second is there more color in the second photo? In looking at the real thing if you were to go out side on a sunny day and carry Buck and Loretta's place with you which of your lighting options would be closer to that?

Rob,  I agree with your

Rob,  I agree with your opinion.  The color looks more intense in the first picture.  The second (LED) picture looks to me like more natural sunlight - just if I had carried the diorama outside.  Personally, I prefer the LED lighting and will eventually put blue bulbs in my halogen lights for "night time" running.

Thanks Rick, my color vision

Thanks Rick, my color vision is not good so I always have to get someone to help when it comes to color. Ever once in a while I will be doing something that involves colors and my wife will tell me those things are different and they look the same to me.

Powering LED's

I have used some LED's for under cabinet lighting, they came with a transformer and leads.

When lighting a room, are people just getting a bigger capacity power supplies (i.e. a 12 v 5 A power supply to drive multiple 5 meter strings of LED's)?

Or are they using multiple smaller power supplies to power individual strips?

Or are we talking about individual 120 V LED light fixtures that are the physical equivalent of a flourescent fixture?

The LED lights in the photo

The LED lights in the photo comparison definitely look more natural than the halogen lights.

As for temperature, the bulbs I bought so far for my standard fluorescent fixtures are 5k.  I mentioned wattage realizing it isn't the same as lumens but as a point of reference.  Comparing the T8 to the T5HO with 52 watts, the lumens are going to be a lot higher but yes, apples and apples.  The T5HO would be much brighter but use more power and be much hotter.  My present 4 fixtures are hung with short chains from a drop ceiling so if/when I move I can simply unhook them and take them with me.

LED bulbs can be used in the standard fluorescent fixtures with the ballast removed so I've read.  But cannot one also buy fixtures that are basically the same thing without the ballast manufactured to hold 4' fluorescent style LED bulbs that have reflectors in the bulb.  With something like that in the right temperature range, it would be cooler, use less power yet still give a good daylight type light - hopefully even brighter than the T8's I have now?

Can anyone provide links to such animals, hopefully where there is a source that is more economical as well?

LED Spectrum

A quick google for images yielded this result:

http://housecraft.ca/eco-friendly-lighting-colour-rendering-index-and-colour-temperature/

which has an image half-way down that illustrates the differences in spectra between a variety of types of lights and compares them to Daylight.  GIven the spikes in the flourescent spectrum, it's hard to believe we are able to use that light at all!

The two LED spectra support my findings a year and a half ago (and are a lot better).  I found that the cool white and warm white spectra were different, and that the best result came from mixing them.  The light from either by itself felt less substantial.  Together, they had a fuller feeling.

Cheers,
Rene'

Costco

Costco is selling an LED "shop light" that looks pretty much like a 4 foot fluorescent fixture with chains for hanging. Here in Canada it is priced at $49, which I think is comparable to the fluorescent fixture, slightly more but you won't have to replace the tubes. Don't know what the spectra is from this, but I have been tempted to buy one for the workbench.

It is hard to compare lighting from pictures since the camera tries to compensate the colour balance. Even in person our brains adjust for the light quality, so we may be unaware that the lighting is not balanced unless we really look for it.

LED's have really improved just in the past year, I have buying them for the house now that the price has come down and the quality improved. In the long run they will save you money in reduced power consumption and the fact that they should last for years without needing replacement. Of course we won't know if that is really true until a few years go by. I bought one that claims a 20year lifespan guarantee, but after even 10 years am I going to remember when I put it in or have the receipt to ask fo a refund if it fails before the 20 years!!?

LED

one other issue with LED lights that I have noticed is that you need to keep them consistent and try to stay with the same MFG.

For example a GE warm white LED may project a different tone than that of another brand that is also noted as warm white.

I suspect the fixture will

I suspect the fixture will break first or someone will knock it over and break it first.

Do you want dimmable lighting?

If so you may want to rethink using anything LED in a fluorescent tube form; these are difficult to find and may require the fixtures have dimmable ballasts (or rewiring the fixture to eliminate the ballast entirely).  I would appreciate it if anyone who may have used dimmable fluorescent LED replacements would post details on what they used, how they hooked it up, what they use for dimmer control, etc.

LED lights

    One thing I've noticed about LED lights is they get better and cheaper quite rapidly so I wouldn't buy any till the layout was a point where they are really needed. ......DaveB

LED lighting

Rick's pics pretty much show what system looks like sunlight. What temp LEDs did you use Rick?? I really have to get those LED strips from Michael. How much work was soldering in the LEDs? How many strips did you need? My layout is about 16 x 16--not sure how many I will need.

Bob

Lighting

 Anybody with any real expertise feel free to chime in.

After this thread started I looked up lighting standards.  The recommendation for medium to high detail work is in the 500-1000 lux range.  A lux is 1 lumen/sq meter.  Because its a range I went to sq yards.

My room is 64 sq yards.  At 500 lumens/ sq yrd that works out to 32,000 lumens.At the high end it would be 64,000 lumens.  I figure I currently have 15,000 lumens of lighting (why it looks so dark and why I am looking at increasing the lighting).

The Costco fixtures have 3700 lumens.  That means 9 fixtures will get me over the 32,000 lumens and 16 fixtures is approaching the upper range of an office setting at 55,000 lumens.

What I didn't see was the temperature of the Costco fixtures.  I have tried a couple LED screw in bulbs and some of them come out pretty harsh.

It's sounding more and more

It's sounding more and more like LED fixtures may be the way to go based on comments so far - nothing in favor of the T5 High Outlput, but if the LED give good bright light and lower power consumption, that seems the logical choice.

Bob, I did a thread on my LED lighting.

You can read the thread by clicking HERE

Uh oh, 9 pages to wade though

Uh oh, 9 pages to wade though on the LED lighting thread - can you feed me with a spoon and just past in the highlights - I'm off to cut taters for todays beef stew!  =P  On a serious note, it does look like I'm going to have to invest time in research based.  I don't have a Costco member ship but I may google their info to see what they have.

Costco vs amazon

Jim,

I find that Costco is not always the lowest price.  Nor do they have the widest selection.  I tend to use Amazon to get a feel for what is out there and then when I know some specifics about the item, then it can be searched to see if there is a better source.  

I saw several options for T8 equivalent bulbs and fixtures.  

The harshness that was mentioned has to do with the color temperature.  For reasons of my own, I have put a fair amount of effort into this issue in general.  I haven't replaced the tubes yet, but they are on my list.  An important consideration is are you going to see the bulb directly, if so, a 5000 color temperature will look harsh.

For me cost savings over the long term is not as important as reliability and light quality.  I have concluded that LEDs are the way to go.  I have several locations that are lit more than 8 hours a day and the bulb replacement was approaching three times a year.  Will LEDs last 20 years? Probably not.  However, where I have used them, they are still producing good light after two years.  I am close to breaking even on purchase price alone.  Plus I haven't had to haul the ladder around 5 or six times to replace the bulbs.

Replacing lighting elements in the layout room seems to be an questionable activity.  Having something that is sufficient light and will last is an important consideration.

I just changed my LED room lighting

I have LED room lights in my office/layout space.

When I first built the space, I put in 10W bulb style LED's from China. They were 2800-3000K, and 900 lumins.  They gave the room a very warm feel but their CRI was horrible.

It's been nearly 3 years since I installed them and LED's are far less expensive in the local stores and more options are on the shelves now. So, I tried the 2700k and 5000k 1600 lumen lights my local place had and I didn't like either of them. They were too bright and the 2700k was far far too orange, and the 5000k was very harsh, but the CRI was good.

Michael Roses LED system ( still on sale btw) recommends 4500K.

So I went in search of 4000k bulb style lights. Seems these are tough to find in North America. None of the sores close to me carry anything in the 4000k range in a bulb style. Home depot, Rona, Canadian Tire, Menards. Nobody.

On Amazon I found 4000k Dimmable and non Dimmable 1100 Lumen LEDS. I bought enough of them to do my entire office and have a few spares on had. Kunshi Unify 2-pack LED 10w (75w) 1100 Lumen A19 Standard Light Bulb 4000k Bright White  (currently only non-dimmable available) and I am very happy with them. The CRI is acceptable to me and the colour is not harsh. They throw plenty of light and look great. Photos and video turn out well.

For my layout lighting I have tuned the colour to around 4000K too. It's just right for me.

PDF of my LED lighting conversion

If anybody is interested I can create a PDF of my LED conversion (assembled from the thread) where I only include my postings.  It would be greatly condensed from the nine pages on the thread.