Battery Power

Blue

I would prefer to operate any layout in person.  I would never Want to operate by remote if I had both options available to me.

The reality of my generation is one of constant moving, of never quite knowing where we will be and not being able to go where we want to go when we want to go.  Unlike past generations, however, my generation is not one that choose one OR the other.  We can choose both, if we accept the limitations that are inherent to the system.  The limitations are only as bounding as the system Failsafes.

Let't put it this way - I want to do X but I have to be in position Y, such as TDY for training on the other side of the continent.  But in that time during your operating session, I am sitting in a Hotel room doing nothing - time I'd normally waste watching a stupid TV show or sit there being bored.  Or I oculd be a member of your club/round robin group, and then I suddenly have to move away.  In your days, that would mean the end of our association - I would no longer be an active member of your club.  But this remote oepration allows us to continue at least operating together.

We could use it as a means of generating revenue as well - call it Pay to Operate.  Level one is simple registration - I find the website and register, and only gain access after you persoanlly approve my membership to the site.  That gains me access to the observation level of the website - and allows me to look in on live cameras situated in strategic positions around the layout.  I decide I want to operate - so you approve me for the trainer courses, all of which I must pass before you let me on the big layout - the first is a circle, which all engineers would use to calibrate the reaction time between when they enter a command on the keyboard and when it impacts the trains (remember that whole distance thing that it takes a train to stop?  This would be certainly replicated now with such delay!).  The second layout would introduce the remote operator to an oval with passing sidings and alternate routes - to get the engineer aquanited with Static DCC controlled switches.  The final test would be one of reading the signals and stopping for reds and going on green - because your layout would make use of both verbal [via radio], time table, and signals to keep trains on time.  The signal system would be managed by the dispatcher or perhaps the tower operator.  After passing all three exams, you would then approve me to run mainline freight.  After enough hours, you would promote me to operate specail trains that are more difficult to manage - like extras, cracks, extras, wreaker trains, and local freighters.  I wouldn't want a yard remotely sorted, but if the coupelr technology was there, it would be very possible...

If I was not a member of your club, you could charge me $2 or $5 per operating session to operate, and since you took my financial data when I signed up, if I was liable for a really bad incident [maliciously so] you could send me a bill in the mail for the damage. 

Yes, the hacker issue is one part that would have to be handled, which basically means the interface would require a face as complex as one like you see on standard login screens.  As I see it, in order to operate on your layout, you would have to approve my "membership" on three levels, so that's three layers a hacker would have to break through.  the last failsafe is the presence of at least one physical being in the room of the layout - to set the circuit breaker, and to unset it if anything at all goes very wrong [but usually he can do what we normally do when things go wrong in operating sessions - handle the small derailments by communicating with the operators via headset.

The other potential problem are public members who think Gomez Adams when they think model trains.  As you see, my failsafes would be enough to deter at least the lower ones, and the more persistant would be stopped by that observer brakeman in the room reporting each incident [and taking control of the train when it happens].  Since your registration system would take sufficient information to uniquely identify the users, the idiots will eventually be all identified and added to the "DO NOT ALLOW TO OPERATE" Folder. - Red Flagged!!

The reason we'll continue using physical models is becasue in truth we all just want to build models and see them run.  We want the physical component - but sometimes we can't have everything.  But this remote operations allows at least more than what we had before - a colleciton of parts but no layout to operate on.

There's another part to my thesis - I could use a controller shaped like my favorie engine controls - or model a locomotive cab in a spare closet - or go the full nine and install the electronics in a real locomotive, and with the combination of one or two LCDs and a hydraulic system to simulate verticle road motion, I could operate your model railroad while riding around in a Real PA-1...even though...yeah, I know...

Joe, today the cap is good for one second.  But what of tomorrow - how far away are caps and cap circuits taht last 5, 10, or even 30 seconds?  The good part is the quick recharge rate...there are negatives too of course.

you can just leave complex trackwork sections dead and greatly simplify wiring.

Maybe in larger scales.. but even in HO there is precious little room in a switcher and that is the kind of short wheelbase loco that will tend to travel over complex yard and industrial track finding all the dead spots..

Chris

Dan

The Lenz decoder is not “wireless” in the conventional sense. Do to the fact that a DCC signal applied to the rail is a rapidly changing current source there is some electromagnetic radiation generated in the form of radio signals. It's these signals that the Lenz decoder is able to read even if there is no electrical connection with the rail due to dirt etc. With the add-on power supply the decoder can theoretically maintain continuous contact with the command station regardless of track conditions. That the on-board power supply can also power the motor briefly is a side benefit that may be useful or not as per Joe's comments above. Because of the way NMRA DCC works a large percentage of control commands (packets) issued by the command station are lost in transit to the loco decoders. This is often the cause of all kinds of strange behaviours such as runaways and sluggish response times to control adjustments. This is the issue Lenz is trying to address with these decoders.

Joe

Interesting and useful insights. Thanks for that. After adding my bit to this thread I had a niggling thought in the back of my head and began digging through my pile of decoders. Turns out I have one of the earlier versions of the lens Gold series. So is it worth getting the power supply for it?

Benny - I'm not sure I want a longer lasting cap - one section of my layout has the tracks selectively dead when I have the bridge out of the way. I don't want the locomotive gaily sailing through that section and down into Aisle Canyon.  Also, the locomotive is not receiving it's DCC orders while it's getting power from the capacitor - like the order to "STOP BEFORE YOU HIT MY $1500 BRASS STEAM LOCOMOTIVE!"

Anyway - I supect Lenz could have made it last longer than a second if they wanted to - but the above is as good a reason as I can come up with as for why they wouldn't want to.

PS: I do not, nor do I ever plan to, own a $1500 (or any other value) brass locomotive. I think my sound equipped MP15DC will hold the crown as "most expensive object on the layout" for some time.

Actually, Chris, a lot of HO locos, including switchers, have heavy cast frames (such as fuel tanks) for operational weight. Batteries (at least currently) can be pretty dense.

It seem possible that with the correct engineering on the models, incorperating a battery shouldn't be that difficult - naturally on smaller critters, the run time will be less than an SD-40.

Jeff, your fears are well founded!

with every solution there is of course drawbacks that have to be accoutned for and then contained!

In this case, it evolved my thoughts into the need for a Wireless Communication and Control [WCC] system so that no matter what the power is doing, the engine is only doing precisely what you tell it to do - via the decoder!

Some failsafes would have to be built in - and perhaps even programmed in.  Say I know that the cap backup will provide power to coast for 30 seconds, but I know I only want the engine to move 5 seconds at the most, after observing that any period after that on my layout is usually either a derailment or really bad trackwork that truely just needs to be redone.  In that case, I could then program an auto-shutoff value that  shuts the powersource off if the engine does not recontact track power in 4 seconds.  No power = decoder goes quiet and we have no issue of locomotives running out of their cradles while they're on the work bench!  haha, it'd be like taking your dog to the vet otherwise!!

It's against the law to smoke that stuf.

Dan

A few comments about this thread. Joe pointed out that Lenz has a capacitor that will carry a loco over dirty spots when track power is low. There is a schemtic on the web where you can build your own, a modeling buddy of mine has done it. About two weeks ago I was at his house when another member of our modeling group came by. This subject came up, and he told us that in the San Diego area where he lives there are modelers using battery power in On3. There is a guy that does the conversions, and they use wireless throttles. I am extremely interested in this, and want to follow up with him on more details and get down there for a first hand look. My biggest gripe (as Im sure most modelers have) is the constant cleaning of track and the stalling, especially when visitors are present. Jeff.

Battery power is popular with Outdoor railroaders because track and wheel cleaning is an issue.  If an HO railroad is built in a clean room, then there is no need to clean track and wheels every time the railroad is operated.  The question comes down to what kind of work needs to be done to get a train going.  For Outdoor railroads, the cost of stainless-steel rail, for electrical reliability, can be weighed against the lesser cost of aluminim rail.  In HO, less expensive steel rail can be weighed against the extra cost of nickle-silver.

Battery-powered Radio-controlled (BR) locomotives were discussed in "Layout Design Journal-37" (Winter 2007).  The HO Athearn Challenger can be used as a BR locomotive simply by adding a connection for a battery-pack.  The MRC electronics in this locomotive demonstrate that BR technology can be done at a cost that is competetive with DCC.

Lithium batteries are available in hobby shops for model airplanes and race-cars.  Nickel-Metal-Hydride (NiMH) batteries are also available and are safer, less expensive, and more stabil.