Batteries may be a thing of the future

From everything I've seen and read about Battery Power so Far.

"Not enough power" most modelers don't want to have to have 2 engines coupled for life or have to rely on special box cars for carrying around the batteries and if it's a long train with many engines were talking a lot more weight just to power the trains.

"Length of battery power" I also have read they don't want to have to spend a lot of time plugging in these cars in order to have enough charge to operate through an entire operating session.

"Life of Batteries" Even with battery power by the time you hook every thing up with battery's you would end up with the problem of what happens when you don't have time to operate and your trains set for a month or two. Then when you find the time and 2/3s of the Batteries are discharged  and or Dead so you spend a couple hours setting cars up for recharge or replacement and then there is the cost, good powerful batteries are not cheap.

With the power consumption and power current requirements of today's electric Model Train motors and DCC decoders you can't just plop in a couple of "C" cell batteries and go, they would last about 10 min and be dead.

Yes the use of the Battery is being talked about and there are those trying to figure out a way to use them for just the reasons you mentioned but so far the toy train is the only trains using them in any groups and those are mostly children.

It's a good Idea but still a few years into the future at least in my opinion I can't see them taking over power supplies very soon.

Dan

Smart Design

Clearly the smart design would be to have battery power on board, but having it constantly charging from track power. All you'd need is 15/20 minutes run time on pure battery power to over come any dead spots (purposely or otherwise), so there wouldn't or shouldn't be a need for large battery packs.

At least that's what I'd aim for.

but

Having powered track seems to negate all the reasons for wanting battery power in the first place...simplicity, no shorts and no track to clean.

Local wag

Felllows ,

A local fellow who comes around to public meets asked me if I was going to adopt  the batteries and R/C control method. ? I asked him what it was , he said it is being done in Texas , he , having read of it in some magazine {print ..no less..} . I figured it out that this fellow knew little more than what he had read . I then offered up that when it becomes "intuitive" plug and play , I would consider it. The point being , I waited for DCC to become something I could use , then jumped in whole heartedly.

This same fellow who often talks alot of trash , does not have a layout of his own. I have yet to tell him that my " water " even with the scratches  , is better than his water.

Track power charging on board  locomotive  batteries is viable . A large capacitor has the same net effect. If and when it becomes viable , I will consider it. I am not going to pioneer it .

Not really.

Not really. A couple of quick points.

1. Bus wires. Just because you're running "self" powered locos, doesn't mean you won't have need for an electrical bus to power turnouts, signals, scenery items, etc. 

2. A battery system would allow you to only push feeders to the track where you want, no need for every other rail, every 3 feet, etc.

3. shorts primarily happen on turnouts and cross overs just isoloate them WAY away from the junction, and no short.

4. Build an auto reverser into each loco control prior to the battery, this would continue to charge the battery regardless of track orientation. Secondly, as the motor is driven off the "clean" power of the battery, you shouldn't have any issues (and might in fact help protect electronic parts in the motive power).

So with big  gaps, a built in auto reverser, and selective electrifcation of the line, you should get a gain in simplicity, be less dependant upon dirty  track, and minimize shorts.

Probably

In the scenario you describe it seems workable.

Lenz has an interesting product

Lenz has an on-board power supply that can be added to some of thier decoders.  The supply is charged from the track during normal operation but kicks in automatically to power the loco over dead spots such as unpowered frogs, bad rail joints and dirt.

Here's a link:

http://www.lenz.com/products/index.htm

I have a loco with this Lenz decoder

I have a loco with the USP Lenz decoder and it works after a fashion - but it's not magic.

Lenz calls this their "electronic flywheel" or Uninterruptible Power Supply technology. The idea is if the loco power pickup is interrupted, a large capacitor supplies power to the decoder until the track power is again restored.

The capacitor power is good for about 1 second. When it kicks in, you can tell. The loco keeps running but it starts to slow - so it's not magic. It does keep the loco running over the dirty spot, so that's good.

But I think the next step will be onboard batteries and direct DCC radio control that goes through the air not through the track. The loco decoder gets its power from the batteries, and the track power just trickle charges the batteries so they're always kept recharged.

This means you can have dead sections several feet long in areas of complex trackwork and it doesn't matter - it also means you don't care about reversing loops and flipping track polarity - you just gap the track or even have dead sections in a few places to avoid shorts and you're done.

It also means dirty track is much less of an issue. As long as the batteries can get a feed most of the time, you're good.

Batteries

Fellows,

I would very much like to have a system which would allow this use of stored power. When it becomes something I can use.I will embrace it whole heartedly.

Building off Joe's Comments

There are some really small battery powered R/C helicopters on the market now - they can only fly 15 or 20 minutes I think, but perhaps their battery technoogy can be adapoted to HO and larger scales.  I bet we have a few R/C enhtusiasts among us - so consider the gauntlet laid down!

Batteries

Fellows,

I hear noises about this becoming available .I remember DCC as needing hexidecimal calculations. I did not participate then . Probably the same for this sort of technology . It will be a great thing . I am fair sure it is currently or the scientist types among us.

 It's getting closer. I would

It's getting closer. I would want a system that pulls power from the track for recharge - all you'd need is fixed DC to certain spots. Reverse loops - no problem, just completely isolate them. Some track gets dirty? No problem, there's still plenty with power to keep the batteries charged. Want the ultimate, for steam-era modelers, make the only power tracks at locations where there are water towers and coaling towers. Now, do I gamble and try to make the next water tower, or stop and take on 'water'? Need sound, including a boiler explosion if the 'water' runs too low, and feedback so there is a water glass to know jsut how much charge is left.

--Randy

Battery power

This whole discussion reminded of my first and only railroad toy in the 1950s.

I had only wanted a Lionel train back around 1956 as a cousin who lived in Georgia had one. My parents couldn't afford it so I never got one. What I did get was powered by a battery and came a figure 8 track arrangement. I don't remember te track gauge but it didn't look like either Lionel or American Flyer.

The locomotive ran around te tracks at one speed because the power switch had only two settings:On or Off.  On usually meant top speed and off usually meant the battery was dead. Top speed usually resulted in a derailment if the battery was fresh. If it wasn't the train stayed on the track. I ran that ran train whenever I was home but the train set didn't last that long because I somehow managed to get the motor to separate from the chasis and that was the end of trains for me until the late 1970s. Other things came along that fascinated me more: plastic models. I was still too young to appreciate girls.

Irv

Battery Power

I am currently running li-poly battery power and radio control (27mhz) in one of the engine sets on my layout.  I get about 6 hrs run time per charge and since the batteries are  li-poly, there aren't any charging memory problems.  If anyone is interested in R/C, check out this thread on the Freerails forum. http://www.freerails.com/view_topic.php

Li-polymer battery power

Please be aware of the potential hazards of using Li-polymer batteries:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3690260570423705609#

http://www.rctoys.com/pr/2006/10/20/safe-use-document-thunder-power-lithium-polymer-batteries/

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3284543/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm

If you accidentally overcharge a Li-polymer you could get a fire.  I would not recommend using these for a model railroad.  Even conventional Li-ion batteries (yanked out of a laptop for example) must be used with care.

Regards
JR

I'm hopping up and down on my

I'm hopping up and down on my feet right now over this thread...Oh Dear YOU GUYS are on the right road!!!!

See, I've been thinking about these things since roughly 2008 - you can find my posts on atlas about both the Super capacitor solution [it's getting better by the year] and then WIRELESS DCC!

The first problem was obvious to me - we have switches and other area were the track is simply not friendly - but I want to get over them.  hence, I need ten seconds of power - internal.  And then my uncle starts telling me about the Super capacitors that were suddenly developed back then, a huge leap for it's time [1 farad capacitors used to be a huge deal; these things are up to 5.5 farads]. It's a new device that opens doors.

But the circuit is more complex than just a battery or capacitor tied in with the main track line - that power reservior cannot over charge, and when the tank circuit is in operation, I do not want that power leaking out to the track due to a short in the track or an open ground in the track - so by diode and relay, that power reservior needs to be capped once it is fully loaded, and then the power circuit needs to completely cut trackpower off when it is either too high [a short] or too low [an open/ground] and open up the power reservior. to the decoder.  The decoder then would never see the drop in current [voltage?].

Once the unit comes back in contact with live power, the unit has to recharge the capacitor - without a hitch in operation of the motor.  I suppose now that I think abou t it, if the tank circuit was on a second decoder [ a "slave" decoder], then the two "units" would chug along merry as can be as two independent but tied together units!  [EUREKA! I never thought of that!!!]  It's all doable, though, with the right electronics, but alas I do not know wnough electrical engineering to make the circuit that works!

Sometime before my supercap thought I was thinking that the next real jump in throttle technology will be a wireless device with a GUI interface - I'm absolutely thrilled to see what has developed with the newest iPhone app for running model railroads!  But Today I also think the app should be able to plug into a database archtecture that has all ofthe informatitn about everything on the layout, ropllingstock and engien wise...yes, rollingstock, because a remote coupler in ever car would require a decoder in ever car!  Just Simple two funtion chips!

Now in the process of working on the power problem I realized there was a far greater issue with our modern DCC setup.  I know DCCers like to push the whole [run your trains, not your track] slogan, but the truth is, their system really is no more than a DC power source with a Digital sequence on top of the power signal.  In otherwords, the track is still running the trains - ala Ventriloqism!!!  The issue becomes HUGE if you start using battery or cap power.

Simply put, if you remove track power, you can no longer communicate with the Engine.  The way I see it, we have to try and get away from the COMMANDS being in the track - but we tried Radio once, and that didn't work too well.  The first time I went through this thought, Bluetooth was the new big idea, and I thought that might be PERFECT for model railroad commands.  Today we have so many WIFI options it's easier to jsut say Wireless - and we don't need a whole bunch of channels; as with the rails, [whereas, afterall, the rails represent "ONE" channel] -  we just need one channel because the commands are preceeded by an identifyer that tells the decoders which one needs to respond to which commands.

Stationary decoders on a hardwired buss with the DCC signal running through the wire makes a ton of sense.  But our moving electronics, like our locomotives really should have the controls independent of the track - thus making it possible for us to give the train a command even while the engine is running over a dead spot!

But you see, this requires a whole new round of DCC upgrades, and a whole new round of DCC decoders containing both the onboard Wireless chipset alongside the tank circuit necessary to get over rough track.  The wireless circuit alone woul dbe a huge leap in Model railroading technology, removing all controller teathers and allowing us to use our iPhones [some already do!]  to run our railraods.

Some people will never need this.  Some people will never want this.  And some people will venoumously oppose this because it would mean their way of doing things is no longer going to work when they go to their neighbors layout - they will have to buy new decoders all over again!  I found the number of venemous opponents to just about ANY new idea over at Atlas to be frighteningly high. [That said, don't even think of mentioning Remote DCC enabled Couplers [seriously, imagine if it was easy to uncouple cars with the click of a button on the controls?  You could then have remote operators running trains on your layout!!!]  over there...you would have thought I said "Go [Evan] Meecham Go!!!]

My main issue is that I do not have the electronics background to make any of this happen - but I can draw it up on block Entity-Relationship Diagrams very well!!!

 I do not advocating the complete removal of track power - I've played with RC before, and I HATE how the toy only runs as long as the batteries are fresh and NOT as long as I want to play witht he thing.  that's no good for an ops session either!

Anyhow, enough excitement!

i believe we may have touched on this subject previously

however, in brief, something along the lines of

(1)decoder, (2)rechargable batteries,(3) using the 12 volt track feed to charge battery,

how ever as previously discussed, issues include

(a)where to put the battery's

after all they'd have to store the maximum charge supplied at 12 volts so you would need (for example) 8 AA batteries to absorb the power other wise you would overcharge anything less,

(b) the wieght of the rollingstock or dummy locomotives carrying the batteries would make them ineffective of pulling trains

a) the size of supercaps

a) the size of supercaps partially takes care of the "where to store them" issue.

b) You don't need 8 AA batteries totallying up to 12 Volts.  You need a Tank circuit that absorbs 12 Volts and then shuts off - once it has completely filled - thus protecting the tank from overcharging - whereas the "Tank" in this case is batteries, capacitors or any storage augmenting device.

The total size of the supercap system would be around the size of 2 to 4 camera batteries - and that's using the current supercaps.  These supercaps are quite a bit smaller than the last generations, and it is only going to get smaller with greater capacities as time goes on.  Where things are gooing, I would not be surprised to see a pair of caps on a circuit within the locomotive.One of the manufacturers even came out with "electrical flywheels" on one of their latest runs just in the last year...don;t remember which one though.

The issue with the supercap is that it is a veryquick charge followed by a very quick discharge.  But we only need about ten seconds of run time, as anything more than that would suggest that we need to clean that particular section of track more in the first place or fix it electronically - more than just a random issue, but a systematic issue!

The only real issue is communication: How do you get DCC signal to the locomotive when the decoder is no longer in electrical contact with the powerstation?  This is the single most important issue that will affect future DCC development because if it is changed, it will affect all of the old DCC as it will no longer be compatible.  Decoders with tank circuits will be compatible, but decoders that recieve their communiations via wireless will have to be dualmode recievers with recievers in both the air and the rail.

I think I'll let you guys

I think I'll let you guys mess around with these supercaps as they can smoke a DCC circuit of present day and a sudden jolt to my $500.00 control station and the ability of catching fire with an over charge if your regulator isn't hooked up correct, No Thanks.

I would love to see these DCC manufactures build a proper complete wireless self contained power system with a battery assist but I'll wait for them to come up with the system. I'm doing just fine with my track cleaning cars and a box of bright boys for now and they have worked fine for 47 years.

Dan

Supercaps

But then I scroll up to his post just above where he wrote:

So while you don't have the background, you still have all the answers!  [grin & a wink]

Batteries

The batteries that I use are for r/c helicopters.  Three batteries wired in series that produce 11.2 volts.  Since everything is contained in the dummy unit, extra weight was added to the powered unit to increase pulling power.  However, one advantage this setup has is the ability to run on anyones layout DC or DCC.  Heck I can run it on the floor without track if I wanted to since the motor is isolated from the frame and wired directly to the r/c board.

Lenz Gold Sieries Decoders

Benny,

The Lenz Gold Series decoders has most of what your looking for. 

http://lenz.com/products/decoders/currentdecoders/index.htm

bsmail I don't seem to see

bsmail I don't seem to see anything about remote wireless use of Lenz gold DCC decoders as I use a number of them on my standard gauge HO engines and to use the Gold decoders for anything out side the norm of DCC voids their warranty and I really don't know what you were reading as I read the whole site and saw no mention of using them with Lit-Ion Batteries or super caps.

If your talking about the "G" scale on board battery control then yes they make a circuit for the large scale trains but the battery car weighs in excess of 3 pounds and for "O" scale or smaller that's not practical.

Yes, Blue, While I don't have

Yes, Blue, While I don't have the background, I have the answers - and Lenz, who Does have the background, has gone and done it! [I was very excited when I first heard about Lenz's new decoder, it's a step in the right direction.]

See, I play with this stuff often enough that I know what funcitons are available from circuits, but I do not know the circuit schematic necessary to make the circuit work.  I do know that it is possible to make the circuit though, because I run into them all the time with my work.  So while I can describe the ideal circuit in words, some day an electrical engineer will illustrate my block diagram with a circuit diagram.    It might not be exactly like I thought it would end up, but the two will be in a similar direction.

The super cap  circuit, for example, would need to incorporate the failsafes I already described - a micro switch {relay} that shuts the tank off once the tank is full, and then a second micro switch that switches the decoder from rail power to tank power when the circuit detects either zero resistance or infinate resistance.  The switch has to be able to electrically reset itself if the tank is at less than full capacity - and all of these circuits ALREADY exist!  I just don't have the knowhow [engineering bacground, workbench, bench stock] necessary to put it al together.  I could go out and get those necessary skills in order to do it myself, but in the five years it would take me to get there, I would be far better off pursuing something I am already good at and let the engineer who is ready right now provide the solution to my proposed theoretical thought problem.  Lenz has gone and done it!

This Lenz decoder provides the means for the decoder to talk to the station - my thoughts on that a couple months ago [before this decoder was announced] was that the command station would do polling, where a roll call signal is sent out and then all of the decoders on the track reply with their address.  The DCC command station would then take this address and send it to an accountibility routine, a routine that would apply it to a database containing your equipment roster, both on and off the rails.  This routine would return to the user interface a database contsrtucted on the fly of your roster of all operatable items on the layout, sorted by the abilities that are available through SQL - so that instead of typing in addresses, I could simply click on an Icon that is a profile description of the unit I want to operate - the profile including all the static information that I might store in the database.  The Lenz decoder has this ability - it can talk back to the command station!  Holy wow...about time!!!

Why would I want such a routine? Well, lets say that I have remote couplers in ever car, and every car has a decoder + passive RFID chip[it's only activated when it recieves a wireless pulse from the reader], and every spur has a RFID[or other tech] transponder/locator/detector built into the spur, then I can not only know where all my cars are at the begininng of an ops session, but I also have the means to drag and drop or quick select by touch screen those cars that are in my train.  I would then have the means to quickly select any uncoupler in a long string freight cars.  Better yet, the RFID/locator technology would mean it no longer takes TWO HOURS for a club to prepare for an ops session - which I have sen and done myself!  Poll the layout once, and then ask the computer to compose the ops session based upon likely activity for each car [the dispatcher would have done this using the computer software while initially entiering the car and the layout industries into the database], and then hit the "play" button on the fast clock and have at it!

So this supercap circuit, obviously it has to be restricted, but that is why we have engineers.  Obviously there are those who will run for the hills every time they see the mere suggestion, in fear that Something Might Go Wrong or they might invent a manner of failure that isn't even possible or merely wild conjecture and use that to continue opposition against any good progress towards the solution.  Something tells me someone at Lenz has been listening - and listening very well.  I applaud their effort, it's got everything in there, and it wasn't even that difficult.

BUT this Lenz decoder did not exist back in 2007 [I just looked back at my original notes for when I started  dredging the muck up over at Altas with this drivel, haha] when I started talking these issues up - and I found a G scale railroader who found a way to put phone cards in his locomotives and run them in a manner similar to wifiusing a 99MHz phone system [something like that, OZ DCC, I believe].  Fanstastic stuff.  I have also since run into a person in G scale who is running remote couplers activated by the controller on all of his cars and it is simple enough for a 5 year old to use.  These things will come to be - but it will take some time, becasue the technology that exists still has to be constructed, integrated, and then minaturized.  But again, I'm not worried - you see how big the Lenz decoder is???

Someday this too shall pass, and you will see railroads as complicated inside as your computer is - but to you the user, it will be as easy as using an iPhone.  The main baulking in the Model Railroad community is that we are used to building things up from scratch, that is how we started.  Hence, we currently kind of understand everything that is happining "inside the box" and we like it that way.  DCC is the beginning of the "what the hell is going on" era, but it's a simple transition to the "I don't know how it works, but I love how it works" era once those who are knowledgeable about these matters put the soltuions to work!

My ultimate goal is to be able to participate in your home layout Operations session, even though I am located 2000 miles away sitting on a beach in Tahiti sipping margaritas with my hot lady...she wanted to go to Tahiti, I wanted to go to your house and play with model trains, ahem, realistically operate a long freight drag on a serious model railroad!  Guess who won!  But She said I could bring my laptop and the hotel has good wifi service - which means even though I'm 2000 miles away, I'm speaking over the railroad comm interface letting the tower operator know I'm climbing into the cab and I'm ready to go - cause I have the next hour free!!!