Sound for N Diesel

Correction to my post - Diesel in mind is Atlas. Sorry. Tom

Sound in N

is very real.  Look at the (relatively) new Rapido GMD1 in N scale.  Awesome sound in a smaller loco.  Of course, it was designed that way from the ground up, and a lot of manufacturers haven't yet re-designed things to fit sound in nicely.  I had sound added to an N scale loco (a Kato E8), that required fairly extensive modifications to the weights, but I was very pleased with the results.  I used a TSU-750 micro Tsunami from Soundtraxx.  Here is my story on it, but for some reason, the pictures aren't showing up.  I'm pretty certain I haven't deleted any photos from my profile, so I'm not sure why they are gone.

Another route

Atlas just released a sound equipped S2

Sound in N

Thanks for the input, Will give it a go. Atlas S2 can't be found anywhere at the moment. Spotted a sound equipped Athearn F45 which I have sent for. Really wanted a 4 axle loco but this one will do for a trial. 

I only have 4 N scale locos,

I only have 4 N scale locos, but they all have sound.  2 GP38s, a gp7, and a F7.  First three are Atlas, the f7 is Kato, but the same principles apply.  They all took a great deal of milling work to accommodate decoders and speakers.  They all sound great.  It's a bit of a task, but sound in N scale can be done.  If you arent comfortable doing them yourself, there are a few places that will do the work for a price.  I have been bitten by the sound bug, all of my locomotives in all the scales that I model have sound now.

Need comment

on MRC N 1645 decoder and how it performs fitted to Kato GE P42 Genesis. Reads well in the advertisements. N gauge P42. Any comments greatly appreciated Thanks in advance. Tom

MRC 1645

I initially tried to cheep out and use MRC 1645's in a pair of Kato P42's (not my era but were given to me as gifts, so I had to run them), and all I can say is . MRC's “Brilliance™” sound was terrible made even worse by the speaker position and lack of enclosure. Operation was not much better, as the decoders were almost impossible to speed match and reset at even the slightest power dropout.

After mucking with the MRC decoders for way to long, I looked at the Digitrax SDN144K0A, but found that the installation was more difficult than expected. The Digitrax instructions show pictures of a Kato E8, and if you were to follow the instructions for mounting the speaker and mill out the back of the P42 frame as pictured the frame would be destroyed (the rear section of the E8's is longer than the P42's allowing for a larger hole to be drilled). You also have to cutoff the capacitor which results in a very power sensitive installation.

So for the moment I have installed Digitrax DN163K0A non-sound decoders (with a small keep-alive cap), while I work on a solution for installing the SDN144K0A's. The DN163K0A were fairly easy to speed match and the locomotives run very well.

MRC 1645

Thanks Ken - just what I wanted to know. I haven't bought the P42 yet. Waiting on the Athearn F45 sound equipped loco to arrive and will decide then re further ventures into the sound arena. The MRC ad. made that decoder sound great and the drop in part suited me fine.But I decided to ask around before I bought.Tom

My experience too

I put MRC sound decoders in two Atlas GP38s last year, and have regretted wasting the money ever since. All of the operational and speed matching issues that Ken K mentions, plus the terrible lunar color of the headlight LEDs (I'd thought by now that MRC would be using white LEDs). In short, I find MRC sound decoders just aren't a good value.

So, when I have funds and time, I'll be putting in Digitrax SDN144A0 sound decoders. Right now the 38s run just fine on DN163A0s.

I am loving the ESU Loksound decoders

I now have 11 of them (3 in Atlas S2's, 5 in Lifelike C Liners, 2 in IM FP7As and one in a stationary broadcasting situation).  The sound and control quality is fantastic.  A couple of HO operators believe they sound equivalent or better in person than HO sound equipped units.

There are a few videos on the Youtube site below.

md

Re: ESU

Mark, which of the Loksound decoders do you prefer for N scale? Any major installation hurdles?

I've been reluctant to try Loksound because 1) they're not plug-n-play and 2) the higher cost just doesn't seem to make them more a value compared to Digitrax for what I'd get in return.

ESU Loksound Micro

I find the sound quality superior to the Tsunami for sure, at least for FM engines.  In the stationary broadcast application (a la Lance Mindheim) the sound from the decoder is broadcast to FM headphones.  The Tsunami sound was basically unlistenable because of the poor quality.  The ESU sound is wonderful and has met with very good response from the three operators that have tried it during ops sessions.

Installation wise I have had David Yip in Vancouver install them for me.  We used 5$ substitue frames pre-machined from central Hobbies for the LifeLike C Liners.  I believe the IM F7Ps required no additional machining. 

I can't remember where the speakers or enclosures came from but could find out if you are iinterested Paul.

md

TSUs = "unlistenable" in headphone-sound config?

Dear Mark,

I take the description that the results were "poor quality",
(IE that there was something that did not sound pleasing to the ears in question),
but "quality" as a term does not usefully or accurately identify any audio characteristic.

I'd be interested to dig into why the TSUs sounded "un-listenable" in "headphone audio" application, it is very easy to overdrive (in the "distorted rock guitar" sense) a "Tech Note #11-based wireless headphone system" if you have the TSU Master Volume CV value>  10!

ESU Lok V3.x/4.x run lower-spec digital audio configs compared to the TSU,
(12bit 11.067kHz VS 16bit 16kHz)
so I'm not sure the "digital audio source files" could be the source of the "better sound".

Of course, if you are making the assessment on "musicality" and "sonic timbre" factors,
(IE "the Loksound's XYZ primemover + ABC Horn combo sound samples/recordings are better than the TSUs XYZ primemover + ABC Horn combo sound samples/recordings"),
that is not a technical assessment but a subjective one.

Much like musos will debate ad nauseum "a Fender Stratocaster guitar sounds better than a Gibson Les Paul" or "a Korg X5 synthesizer sounds better than a Roland JV1080".
such an assessment is entirely valid for your ears (and I defend your right to that assessment!),
but is not a solid basis on which to write-off the underlying technology or specific-unit electronic design as flawed. One man's "perfect Stratocaster guitar tone" is anothers "ugly horrible sonic mess".
(despite being proven thru analysis of the signal path to be entirely within the electronic specs of the components/circuitry/technology in use...)

If the ESU decoder you were using was a V3.x or V4.x (with their 100ohm speaker impedance),
then the "better audio" (assumed to be "less distortion" in this case) may have been a "happy accident" of the ESUs being closer to "line level" than the TSU,
and thus not needing to be soo-purposely-configured to suit the "headphone audio" application.

As noted above, turn the TSU Master Vol CV128 _waaaaay_down_ to create a more-level apples<> apples playing field for assessment. Above "20" is guaranteed to sound distorted, as clearly stated by Lance in his examination of the technique. In the case of the "Headphone Audio" technique,
it's far better to keep the source signal generator, IE the TSU,
at a Low Gain setting,
and let the "Power Amp" gain stages of the active wireless headphones themselves do the "amplify to suitable dB SPL level" stage.

Out of interest:
- what "sound set"/"sound project" TSU and ESU decoders did you A/B?
- was the ESU a V3.x, V4.x, or Select?
- was the TSU Master Volume CV (128) set to less-than 20 (preferrably 10) for the test?
- what was the procedure for setting the end-to-end gain stages of the system?
- what make/model was the active wireless headphone rig in use?

I'm intrigued to know more...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

that's a lot of a questions...

and it will take some time to answer. I will gather it up over the next few days.

I would like to note that the "quality" difference between the Tsunami and ESU Fairbanks Morse sound was also apparent to me in the onboard application as well (though somewhat less noticeable) so I currently believe it was the result of the respective sound files/decoders and not the fm headphone set up or CV settings which were the same in both cases and were below 10 in the stationary/FM application. It was just more noticeable in that set up. 

md

Please, Mark

If it doesn't take away too much time from your excellent layout, Mark. I'm thinking it might be worthwhile to do comparison of my own.

Off-topic question: I think there may be quite a few Yips residing in the general Vancouver, B.C, area, but wonder if David Yip is any relation to a Mallory Yip, who's a BNSF signal maintainer?

some answers to the questions...

On board application:

- Before going "all in" for sound, David and I experimented this past January on a single LifefLike C Liner A unit with a pre-machined frame.

- We first tried  a "TSU-750 Micro Tsunami".  The sound quality was disappointing to me and a medium pitch background "humm" was quite pronounced while the engine was running and less pronounced but present when the engine was stationary.  Sound level on the loco was set between CV = 30 to 50 (note: to me this was the same sound I heard previously in the stationary application which I had tried and abandoned with a Tsnuami about a year previously.)

- In the same unit we then tried an ESU LokPilot Micro V4.0 with an early GMD sound file and ESU 50328 enclosed speakers (use just 1/2 of the double speaker set up per install).  Sound quality was excellent.  An FM sound file was not available at that time.  This is the unit shown in the "second" sound test video on the C&W web site.

Stationary application:

- this was an experiment done in February of 2014 and built per Lance Mindheim's "Under the Layout Sound" Experiment...I note Lance's blog post for this seems to have been deleted or otherwise had its link broken

- I tried to source the same Radio Shack audio transformer (part #273-1380) Lance specifies and found an equivalent

The headset was "Headrush Model 33 19785R" 900MHz FM transmitter/headset pair

- Lance also used a Soundtraxx Tsunami in his application - I used a Tsunami 828047.  I noted a high level of "noise" through the headset at all times.  CV master volume was set between 7 and 15 if I recall.  I played with this setting and the volume of the headsets but couldn't reduce the "noise/signal"

- I also tried putting the sound through under table speakers and got the same hummmm as was present in the headset and later heard in the on board application.  I believe Lance also noted unsatisfactory sound quality in his headphone experiment and attributed it to an 8 bit sound file or something similar.

- additionally there was very poor synchronization between the speed ramp up of the model and the sound playback and no matter what I tried with various momentum settings and notch rates I was unable to overcome this.  I abandoned the experiment at that point

- following the success of the ESU on board install and its "clean" sound quality, I replaced the Tsunami in the stationary test jig with another ESU Micro this time with the newly released FM sound file.  I made no changes to the circuitry nor tried to match impedance.  Sound levels were similar set to CV below 20.  Results have been excellent both in terms of sound quality and synchronization.  3 Operators and I have tried the headset sound on the physically isolated Slocan branch line on the C&W with positive feedback.

Oh, and I don't know if David Yip is a relation to Mallory Yip but I will ask the next time I see him

md

switching out my digitrax sound to non sound

Not to deter, just my experience

I installed a digitrax sound decoder in one of my Kato SD40-2's, N scale..   I haven't played with the volumes but factory settings went very impressive.  I am also having the issues with speed matching and the locomotive "resetting" on anything but perfect track.   Because of this I am removing it and installing a digitrax non sound decoder.  I like my NCE power cab and SB3 and have installed most brands of decoders but all decoders I purchase now are digitrax non sound.   Doing this I have been able to speed match about 20 locomotives that are now interchangeable in consists.  The other brands I am forced to use as single unit switchers or designated as yard engines only.  On the other hand I am very impressed with my Athearn MPsomething GO unit.  I run it as a single loco passenger train, so have no issues with consisting,  also it does not seem to reset as often.  In my opinion If you plan on running single locomotives give the sound a try but if you want consists maybe try sound in all locos$$..

Tom  

I am having similar issues with  

Thank you, Mark

I appreciate your time putting that together.

One more question: How are the on-track ESU units in regard to operation, especially resetting when any little bit of dirty rail is encountered?

ESU and dirty track

They haven't been too bad on the C&W.  I haven't noticed much difference vs. the non-sound decoders but then we only have one op session under our belts.  

There is a CV setting which allows the locomotive to continue operating should contact be lost and the sound start going through its start up sequence again which is *definitely* worth using!  When I was cleaning wheels before the session the locos would not operate after I took them off the track until the sound sequence was run. For the C Liners this was about a minute of various exotic pings and burps but it was infuriating to wait for.

md

ESU and dirty track

They haven't been too bad on the C&W.  I haven't noticed much difference vs. the non-sound decoders but then we only have one op session under our belts.  

There is a CV setting which allows the locomotive to continue operating should contact be lost and the sound start going through its start up sequence again which is *definitely* worth using!  When I was cleaning wheels before the session the locos would not operate after I took them off the track until the sound sequence was run. For the C Liners this was about a minute of various exotic pings and burps but it was infuriating to wait for.

md

Thanks again, Mark

That's good to know about the CV setting for the ESU motor functions.