Sounds interesting... but

Sounds interesting... but Bluetooth range is only about 30 feet at best, more reliably about 20 feet. I've run trains longer than that in N scale. I don't think it's going to be as useful as they might hope.

Range is not bad

These boards are bluetooth4 (also known as bluetoothLE - or "bluetooth low-energy") and have been operated comfortably at 60 feet.

They are not classic bluetooth (which has the shorter range you are used to).

Here's a video with demo

Here's a video of a demo by Bachmann rep at a convention. Looks pretty cool. The ez-app part starts around 5:25.

Stated at 30 feet, but much further distance.

I'm still using an iPhone 4 and my 2005 car has Bluetooth.  I can leave my phone on the far side of the house, pull the car out on the street. I can dial a number through the car's interface and get a good strong call going.  We have a big house.  When I'm getting service at the dealership I always know when my car is ready, as my iPhone will beep when the Bluetooth connection is made.  That is long before they come around the building.  So, don't discount the technology.  It works and works well.

Things are changing. You want more young people in the hobby?  How do you attract them to the hobby?  What do most of them have in their hands?  A phone, a tablet or both.  They already own their throttles.  This is one way to get them involved.  Like he says in the video Bachmann was approached by these young programmers.  Thankfully someone listened.

I think the new technology will drive even more changes into the hobby.   Didn't we have some strongly worded threads going about what is the next new thing in DCC, a technology that is 20-25 years old?  Here is the new change.

Den

...

Boom.

Very interesting indeed...

I do have a question about this Bluetooth chip.

Has anybody seen one and can state the dimensions?  Just curious.

Den

Bluetooth devices come in

Bluetooth devices come in several flavors supporting three maximum transmission power levels and four different protocols supporting data rates from 1 to 24 Mbits/s. The LE refers to the latest Version 4 protocol (up to 24 Mbits/s) and has nothing to do with transmission power which determines the operational range of a device. Although there are some market and regulatory differences most Bluetooth wireless keyboards, mice, earpieces, etc. are Class 1 devices with a range of about 1 meter (max transmission power 1 mW). Some devices like wireless printers and many cellphones are Class 2 devices with range about 10 meters (max transmission power 2.5 mW). Devices can also be built to the Class 3 specification with a range of about 100 meters (max transmission power 100 mW), but in most regions / markets this requires expensive regulatory testing and certification of the devices.

However, battery power tends to be the greatest restraint on which Class a device supports. To produce that 1 mW a device may consume 100 mW or more during transmission. Class 2 devices may consume over 250 mW, and Class 3 devices can consume well over a Watt. So a cellphone with active cell, WiLan and Bluetooth can really SUCK the power.

The power available and efficiency of the antenna in the locomotive will probably be the weakest link in the system. If you really want that 10 meter range, you will have to double the power being drawn from the track just to support the Bluetooth transceiver.

Bluetooth chips:

There are several flavors of Bluetooth chips and supporting circuitry including what is sometime the largest component: the antenna. Referring to a picture on the BlueRail Trains site the picture below shows an example of the controller in the Bachmann locomotives. The Bluetooth transceiver and associated circuitry occupy the left ¼ to 1/3 of the board. The four prong fork on the left edge of the board is the antenna.

If you need the power the systems get larger. The Anaren module below measures 11 mm x 19 mm x 2.5 mm without Antenna.

The STMicroelectronics module below measures 10.5 mm x 13.5 mm x 2.5 mm without Antenna.

Very interesting.

I can see this product taking off with a vengence!  From what I gather, you will be able to control your blue tooth loco on any layout with a powered track, DCC, DC, ect.  

...

In otherwords, it gets rid of the DCC architecture altogether, allowing us to transition to a purely computer based environment...

My first post on this subject was around 2007 on the old atlas board.  Burned down the house with that one...

About time

i use a wireless headset and bluetooth smart watch with my iPhone and frequently move further than 30' away with no problem. I WISH my layout was that big but I'd probably still follow along with the train. 

In On30 the battery packs I use now last a couple hours which is fine. I simply replace them if running out of power. 

@Ken is the receiver available separately? I wonder if it will support sound, lights, accessories ...

Thanks Rich for pointing this out. Seems to hold a lot of promise. 

Neil Erickson 

Bachman Only ?

Very interesting demo. Similar concept to Rail-Pro it looks like. It also appears that it is currently only an option w/ a Bachman equipped locomotive. If this thing is is good and easy as it appears from the video, then a couple of questions which no one but Bachman can probably answer:

As Neil asks above, will the modules be available separately so we can stuff them in whatever loco we choose?

Will it remain proprietary? I can understand Bachman's reluctance to be too generous after having put $$$ into development.

But, Do they realize the potential GOLD MINE they are sitting on if this is as it appears ?

It appears to have the capacity to shake things up in the world of train control.

It could give you goose bumps of excitement.

Just Wondering !

Espee over Donner

@Patrick - Not Proprietary to Bachmann

Patrick,

If you'll go back and read Ken K's post on page one he references a link to BlueRail Trains.

http://bluerailtrains.com/

Listen closely to the Bachmann YouTube description and then spend some time on the BlueRails site and I think you'll discover that BlueRails are the ones who developed this Bluetooth decoder.  It appears that Bachmann got the first shot at it but it will be available to other manufacturers and individuals as well.

What Bachmann demonstrated just scratches the surface of what can be done by these developers who come at this from the gaming industry.  The DCC controller, computer and interface are eliminated, with the signal removed from the rails the handheld communicates directly with the decoder.   Sound comes from the handheld making headphones and earbuds viable, remote via the internet operation, true plug-and-play, Android apps in the works, and they are seeking suggestions for new ideas and applications.

This is definitely something to watch closely over the next year when they become available to the general public.

Regards,

Dave

Bachmann E-Z App

When I look at the complex monster DCC has grown into especially the controllers the simplicity of this is appealing. Of course it will become complex - running peripherals such as switches is as yet unexplained but it looks so much simpler than those controllers that resemble old HP programmable calculators.

Iain

...

Super complex under the hood, super easy to plug into.  As it should be.

Just did some reading on the Bluerails site. Very cool indeed!

Here is the link for everybody to read.   This is FAQ page.

http://www.bluerailtrains.com/faq.cfm

Bluetooth Chips and Modules

Neil,

Bluetooth chips and modules have been available from most of the major manufacturers (Texas Instruments (TI), STMicroelectronics, etc.) for many years. Although originally developed to support the cell phone and computer peripherals markets, to support the growing wireless market including the Internet of Everything (IoT), manufactures have developed many flavors of transceiver chips and are now producing microprocessors that include Bluetooth and other wireless transceivers on the same chips. This is necessary because the software (stacks) that support Bluetooth and other standard wireless protocols (Bluetooth, WiFi, WiLAN, ZigBee, etc.) are fairly complex. Orders of magnitude more complex than the software needed to control even a sound decoder. BlueRail Trains along with Rail-Pro are only a few of the outfits that have announced the development of wireless train control systems. At least the BlueRail systems will be utilizing iOS and Android phones as throttles, but the cellphone App protocols will still be proprietary.

The Future

I just had a look through the BlueRails site; I think I have seen the future! This could really revolutionize Model Rail. If I was Digitrax or NCE I would be afraid, very, very afraid! They could be out of business soon. It might take a couple more years to get the boards down in size and fine tune things, but the potential is huge and since you are relying on software rather than hardware advances should proceed more quickly.

 "If I was Digitrax or NCE I

It's not really a matter of how fast the software or hardware advances, it really depends on how many people want to buy the new stuff and how many people already have stuff that works for them so they have little incentive to change. A guy with an operating layout and a fleet of locos is not gonna need more locos for many years and then would likely only buy new ones that were specific paint schemes or types and that were compatible with his existing locos. It's taken decades for some locos to be offered so it's gonna take a long time for a new company to produce then all over again. If the hobby ever becomes driven by newbies that need a lot of stuff then a new company might be able to sell more but if it's relying on the existing hobbyists it has to plan for a smooth evolution and build what we want or we won't buy it.......DaveB

...

Same arguments were given against DC and look where MRC [the DC King] is today...

No, this is the future of CnC, I've seen it coming since 2007.  Think about it, all you need to control the item is a device you Already Have, and the rest of the electronics are all contained within the target [with the power source begin entirely independent of control].  With this stuff, you can eventually have multiple flavors of decoders [each one with different proprietary code inside the chip], but thanks to driver files, you have access to all the items within the same program on your control device.  So then I don't need to care if the Bachmann system can interact with the Digitrax system, I just need both of them to be able to interact with the Controller  interface in my hands.

No command stations...just power supplies...

The advanced circuitry within the Bluetooth chipset can support coding to do everything found within the RING decoder And More, you just have to figure out how to program the idea and you can do it.

When your devices can provide real time feedback to your main controller, you have something standard DCC cannot do, and yet, it is an idea that is a no brainer throughout the computer industry.

Give it time.
 

I am sure it is covered

I am sure it is covered somewhere, but how does this unit handle consisting? I see bluetooth as the next wave in DCC tech....and it is the direction we should be heading. Having sound files on board your mobile device and having it send the sound to the locomotive speaker real time will put some sound manufacturers out of business if they do not get on board and embrace new technology. I would still prefer a throttle with knobs over a mobile phone....I am not really fond of WiThrottle. 

Just another step

I'm not sure I would go so far as "revolutionize the future."

It's certainly a nice evolution. I like to see these developments because it may push other companies to improve their current products. I also think Bachmann needs to commended for trying something new. 

What I see is a system that, on the level currently described, replaces the the method of sending the control signals to the decoder located in the locomotive.

You still need power to the track.  It does have the option of installing a battery in the locomotive.  That's a plus.  But most will still have all of the wiring and electrical problems with reverse loops, dirty track, etc. that we have today.  I'm not sure how blue tooth would have a big effect on detecting the train location for signaling.

As I read the FAQ, this system replaces a standardized definition of decoders with a proprietary decoder, so I would be stuck with one vendor.  There are a lot of promises about features coming that may or may not materialize.  I prefer a system where multiple vendors compete.

One other thing bothers me a bit.  In the train set market (where it looks like this is initially targeted) all you currently need to do is connect the DC power pack to the rails with two wires and you're running.  The new set up adds the steps of downloading an app, making the bluetooth connection and having a charged up phone to run the trains.  

While this extra step doesn't sound like much, consider the people that had trouble connecting the two wires to the track.  You've added more to go wrong that may need a bit of troubleshooting.  Given that some model railroaders have difficulty changing a DCC locomotive address, I see this as a possible stumbling point.

On a personal level, I'm anxious to see if the antenna can be made small enough to work in N scale.  Antenna size may be limited by the laws of physics.  I don't know enough about antenna physics to do more than wonder about this.

I like how JMRI/WiThrottle works, but I sure would like to get rid of the need for the computer in the middle.  Blue Tooth to the locomotive would be great.

As to the gaming aspects, I'm not sure why I need the physical train to play the games.  I've used Trainz and the old Microsoft Train Simulator and adding a physical train to the mix would just be a nuisance.  Although, I'm keeping an open mind.  Game developers can be pretty creative. 

I'm not being negative.  I think developments like this are good. But in its present form, as described, I see a small evolutionary step in train control that may help bring newcomers to the hobby and may motivate current vendors and the NMRA to move past the 1995-era control interfaces that we have to day.  Beyond that it looks like a bunch good ideas and promises.

Things like this usually take time to make it to a large part of the hobby.  Think of how DCC is still described as "New" in many articles. The basic NMRA standard was issued in the 90s.  Thats a couple of decades ago.  Think of how far cell phones have progressed in the same time period.  

Time will tell.  I wish them the best.  In the meantime, I'm not going to get too excited.

gs 

"Same arguments were given

Think about it again. Why would I need another device to control the stuff I already control with my already paid for device?  DCC was around a long time before it became a majority control system and DCC was a huge step up from DC while this new system really doesn't add much to our train running experience, it's more just a different way to do what we are already doing so folks have less incentive to switch from DCC to it than they had to switch from DC to DCC.  In reality most folks are doing just fine with what they have since running toy trains is not a hi tech problem, it's a hobby that is not dependent on the latest technology to have fun. 2007 was almost 8 years ago so that 7 plus years of wasted anticipation that could have been spent modeling. John Allen probably foresaw this new control in 1957 but didn't let it worry him :> ) ......DaveB

Why I see the potential

Here is why I see the future potential of this system:

Cost of a DCC system $300-500 plus $20-$120 per locomotive for a decoder. That's pretty steep to get started in. 

Cost of the Bluetooth system (not known but I guess $50-120 per locomotive, same as a decoder), most people already have a smart phone or other device, don't know what the cost of the app will be but since Bachmann is selling this in train sets it can't be very high. So for the cost of a decoder, you have the equivalent of a DCC system and it will run on a DCC layout or DC layout.

If you are just getting started, or are still running DC, this makes much more sense than buying a DCC system. If you already have a DCC system you can run bluetooth equipped loco's, it is compatible.

That is why I am thinking that if this gets some traction it will replace the DCC systems that NCE, Digitrax and others are selling. Why spend $500+ for a DCC system when you can use the phone that is already in your pocket?

I also prefer a dedicated throttle over a phone, but I am also cheap. Given a choice, I would use the existing phone and keep the $500 for a DCC system in my wallet.

Now, if they manage to develop some of the other potentials of the software, I can't see how current DCC technology could compete.

Brent

You are bang on about the cost.  The biggest knock from many is that they don't like using a phone as a throttle.  Those with existing systems will not change, but even those who don't really like the phone as a throttle will have to REALLY hate it to spend $300-500 more to not use the phone.  Heck, I tried out Engine Driver and I don't really like it, and I'm generally one of the earlier adopters of technology.  However, if it saved me $300, even initially, I would do it and suck it up and probably get used to it.