CTC + Yard

The yard itself will not be CTC.

The mainline switch to the yard will be part of CTC; only the connection to the main track will really be part of the CTC.

This will usually be power-operated and part of an interlocking/"control point" and protected by signals, but if it's just a couple of tracks it's possible that it could also be a hand-operated switch, that will have an indicator attached to it that tells the CTC system if it's reversed.

Either way the train or engine would required explicit permission (by signal indication or formal authority) to use the main track, but it can be done.

Also

To add to what Chris said above, there may be a switching signal to allow work to continue past a control point onto a lead or other track the dispatcher doesn't control.  These often have a lunar (white) indication and provide authority independent of the signals for the controlled turnout(s), unless the dispatcher lines the turnout for access from the main to the yard (i.e. as long as the dispatcher doesn't need to line a movement into or out of the yard, to/from CTC territory, the signal allows movement onto or off of the switching lead without calling the dispatcher).

"If there is a larger to

"There's a misconception that

"There's a misconception that only mainline track operates under CTC authority."

Guilty as charge Paul.  I'm working on how I am going to signal my layout.  It isn't that large, n scale, double decked with a "nolix." I was originally going to just signal the nolix (modified helix with two levels of some visible track) as it represents roughly the Fraser/Thompson Canyon area in BC.  Then when I thought about it, I do have some extended main line beyound both sides of the nolix, so I thought - 'okay, maybe signal that.' 

I was thinking that only the main had to be signaled (making my life easier) but now I'm wondering about my "yard" area which is really four smaller yards off the main, sort of representing the Vancouver wharves area in both Vancouver and North Vancouver.

And so my hope implied question was that do I need to signal any of the yard transition tracks, maybe I do now.  I think at some point I'll post a track plan and ask for some advice on signal placement.

I appreciate the responses and for your longer response Paul.

Three cases

I'll describe three distinct yards which I am intimately familiar with.  Hopefully they will illustrate something useful for you.  These are all on Norfolk Southern, on either former Southern or N&W territory.

High Point, NC

High Point yard consists of four double ended tracks,, a switching lead on either end, one stub track, a connection to the High Point, Thomasville & Denton RR, and the beginning of a branch line to Asheboro.  There is a double track main line, and hand-throw crossovers connect each end of the yard to main track #1.

From the dispatcher's point of view, High Point yard barely exists.  It is nothing more than two switches on the main line in the middle of the block, and could just as easily be two separate one-car spurs.  Movement int he yard is done at restricted speed, under no particular authority, and using no signals.  If a yard job needs to occupy the main line, they contact the dispatcher and receive verbal permission to occupy main #1, after which they may unlock the timer on the switch, wait until the time runs out, and then throw the switch and occupy the main in the specified direction.  They will not have any signal at all for about 1/2 mile, and until passing a favorable signal, they must operate at restricted speed.

Trans on the main which need to enter the yard need only stop at the switch and unlock the timer.  The timer will come off immediately, allowing the crew to throw the switch and enter the yard, again at restricted speed.

Linwood, NC

Linwood is a much larger, busier yard than High Point.  There is a busy hump, 46 classification tracks, 8 9,000'+ receiving and forwarding tracks, and full service and repair facilities.  There are also a trainmaster and yardmaster on duty at all times in the tower.  The main line is double track here as well, but in this case there are three "plants" (a plant is an interlocking section, with CTC controlled signals governing movement into and through the plant, and with one or more switches) on the main line - one at either end and one in the middle - which can give access into or out of the yard.

To enter the yard, the dispatcher lines a route and a train will receive a Restricting signal.  The train must also have verbal permission from the trainmaster to enter the yard.  To depart, the dispatcher will line the needed route and the train will receive a Diverging Clear (or Diverging Approach, if there is a train ahead) signal.  That gives the train permission to occupy the main line.

Movement within the yard is governed by the Trainmaster, and done at restricted speed.  The dispatcher has no authority within the yard, though he does have the ability to line trains into and out of it.  Also, as with High Point, there are a couple yard tracks which have hand-throw switches to access the main line, and the same rules about permission apply.

Roanoke, VA

Roanoke is a complex yard where multiple main lines converge, and there are a large number of yard tracks and through routes in and around the yard.  There is one main line which passes around the yard, and another which is no longer used as a main.  In addition to separate dispatchers for the various main lines, there is a Roanoke Dispatcher who controls movements through about 1/2 of the yard.  The remainder of the yard is governed by a Trainmaster.  Movement is done at Restricted speed on all but the main line, and by a complex combination of signal indication, verbal permission from the Roanoke Dispatcher and/or Terminal Trainmaster on the hump.

Roanoke yard is so complex that the CTC system operates in the yard as well as on the main line.  It is, to be blunt, a confusing mess that takes most people several months of constant exposure to learn, and which after 16 years I am still learning about.  In several locations, the transition from CTC to non-CTC is not delineated in any way, or at best by an orange cone or rubber flap nailed to a crosstie.  Part of learning the yard is learning where the limits end, and there is simply no replacement for familiarity with the territory.  The Timetable does describe the various locations, but it is not practical to refer to it day to day as you travel through the yard.

As with High Point and Linwood, in addition to CTC in the yard itself, there are signals governing movement into yard tracks, and yard tracks with hand-throw switches which require permission to use.  Thus you can see that it is not an either/or situation, but more like all of the above.

You are welcome!

Ken

The stories I could tell!

That's an understatement and a half!  To add to the confusion, you have trains from six different lines coming into and out of the yard on three different divisions.  There are at least three radio channels typically used by road trains, and many more for yard trains and other crafts.  For any given destination, there are probably 2-3 very different ways of getting there, with different permissions needed to do so.  There are also two distinct yards (former Virginian and N&W) which are operated jointly, and a wide range of completely non-intuitive location and track names.  I have known many people who got into troube in Roanoke - fortunately I have yet to be one of them.

While it's a fascinating place and well-known among N&W and Virginian fans, I would NEVER recommend that anyone build an accurate model of Roanoke on their layout.  It's far too complex and confusing to be practical for the average operator.  2-3 hours a month, or even 2-3 hours a week, is simply not enough to learn such an operation.  And if you ever build it, don't ask me to help wire it for signals and switches!

I'm all for easy to use easy

I'm all for easy to use, easy to understand, and easier to remember.  I've been invited to operate on some pretty spectacular layouts which I eventually declined as they were just too complex to learn.  I have learned over time that simplicity can lead to complexity, you don't have to add anything to be challenged.

..

Are you looking to build a completely 100% accurate model of a specific prototype, or just looking for a "good enough" prototype feel?

From a Dispatchers stand-point, the main goal is to line safe routes for trains onto-over- and off of the main line and any controlled OTMT (other than main tracks). Control Points, or Plants as Ken put it, are going to consist of locations where a Dispatcher needs to normally control the routes of whole trains. On a busy model railroad, with trains moving over the main line quicker then they can usually be built and terminated in yards, and in the case of our group layout that Im part of, there are just so many people that want to run a train at any given time, it is tough for the dispatcher on duty (usually me!) to keep them moving, let alone lining them in and out of switching locations.

So I would analyze your needs from a routing of whole trains stand-point first, then see what else you might need. Cross-overs for parallel main tracks (either double track or multiple main tracks), and/ or controlled passing sidings. Then if your classification yards are designed with receiving and departure tracks that trains can come and go without too much interference from the yard jobs, then that would also be a good candidate for a Control Point.

Time locking of hand-throw switches is a good way to slow down the pace of a model railroad. Sadly, of the crew Im with half employ the "race car" mentality and just see the layout as a toy with switching puzzles instead of faithfully replicating railroad operations as a whole.

Steven

Good idea, with a caveat

Not on NS

All of the timers I have used at Norfolk southern work this way:

If equipment is on the main line and within about 1 car length of the switch points (in other words, if you want to access a track other than the main line), the timer will release immediately.  If the main line is not occupied, then the timer will run for a pre-set period, usually around 5 minutes.  Unlike the Approach Locking you described above, there is no provision for bypassing the timer other than to break the emergency seal and manually release the lock.

The reason is simple.  A train leaving the main line will have to operate at restricted speed, as will any opposing movements.  A train entering the main line would also have to run restricted speed, but any opposing movements might be running on a Clear signal and not expecting to find the route blocked or lined off the main.  The timer sets the signals to Restricting and allows enough time for anything which might already be in the block to get past the switch before it is thrown.

From a model RR perspective, implementing the feature is easy.  Trains on the main line may sue a switch just as they always have.  Trains entering the main line must wait 5 minutes after getting permission to occupy the main, unless doing so at a control point and with a signal.

Ken

Restricting

I should have clarified that the timer functions the same as any other situation which would cause the block  to appear occupied.  Thus it sets all of the signals to the most restrictive indication possible.  For intermediate signals, that's Restricting.  For home (controlled) signals, that's Stop.  In theory, it could allow trains to keep moving between control points.  In practice, permission is not generally granted in front of opposing movements, so the timer is little more than a backup safety precaution.

Yes, we still have to have permission to start the timer.  Failing to do so is equivalent to occupying the main line without authority - a sure way to get some time off!

Ken

Clearly I'm not as keen as

Clearly I'm not as keen as you guys...lol.  My layout isn't in that large a room, roughly 13 by 9 but I don't have all that area for the layout.  So as for signals being "necessary," not really as visually almost the entire layout can be seen, and trains in the nolix, seen with a camera.

At first I thought it would be good and enhance the feeling of mainlining with signals at three places in the nolix. Then I thought signals around the layout wouldn't entail all that more as long as I am willing to withstand the pain of JMRI, and thankfully I have a few computer geeky friends who might help me out.

Here is the layout bench work, what I have built is almost like this with only minor modifications.  The extension at the end of the reversing loop is gone and the reversing loop bench work extended a bit, but other than that, this is a helicopter view of what my double deck system looks like: [N scale]

Here is my nolix area, as you can see almost completed, more has been finished since these pictures:

Only the second and third level from the front will be visible, I took this pic as I found guys were getting confused as to what I was doing, the paper is just a mock up to show you this will be a mountain area and the paper representing finished mountain, the backdrop is really only there for "peek a boo" viewing:

Below is the track plan for the lower level, again the plan has been slightly modified, but only small items, the overall plan is the same.  The upper deck track isn't in yet but because the room is smaller and only two -  maybe, maybe - three might operate on it, I decided lots of switching on the top deck would mean we would be getting in each other's way, so I'm pretty set on scenicked staging for the top deck, with a city in the reversing area.  So the top deck will be a contemporary city high rise scene in the reversing loop area, with staging set up to look roughly like a yard.  I might have an engine servicing area, but that really won't affect what I am doing.

So a train will come down from the upper deck, through the nolix, into the yard area where it will be broken down.  The outer track of the reversing loop on the lower deck is all mainline.  The idea is to get a feel for a long train as can be found in the Fraser/Thompson canyon arriving, being broken down, a new train built and sent on its way back to the top deck:

Here are two pics of part of the layout, reversing loop on one side, and the smaller yard on the other side; you will see not much room for more than two operators.

And other side, not really set up nicely for public viewing...lol.

Ken

Roanoke, VA

Roanoke is a complex yard where multiple main lines converge, and there are a large number of yard tracks and through routes in and around the yard.  There is one main line which passes around the yard, and another which is no longer used as a main.  In addition to separate dispatchers for the various main lines, there is a Roanoke Dispatcher who controls movements through about 1/2 of the yard.  The remainder of the yard is governed by a Trainmaster.  Movement is done at Restricted speed on all but the main line, and by a complex combination of signal indication, verbal permission from the Roanoke Dispatcher and/or Terminal Trainmaster on the hump.

Roanoke yard is so complex that the CTC system operates in the yard as well as on the main line.  It is, to be blunt, a confusing mess that takes most people several months of constant exposure to learn, and which after 16 years I am still learning about.  In several locations, the transition from CTC to non-CTC is not delineated in any way, or at best by an orange cone or rubber flap nailed to a crosstie.  Part of learning the yard is learning where the limits end, and there is simply no replacement for familiarity with the territory.  The Timetable does describe the various locations, but it is not practical to refer to it day to day as you travel through the yard.

As with High Point and Linwood, in addition to CTC in the yard itself, there are signals governing movement into yard tracks, and yard tracks with hand-throw switches which require permission to use.  Thus you can see that it is not an either/or situation, but more like all of the above.

Interesting that Roanoke would be one of your examples. I also was looking at the map of the area rather in detail since after labor day I will be traveling and be at the Museums around that area on the tenth and the eleventh. Just from the detail on the highway maps I would have to say it sure does look complicated and confusing, let alone trying to work in there. The signaling as you say must be a tremendous nightmare. I am also wondering how challenging that must have been when both the Virginian and N&W were operating the yards and in the pre ctc days must have really been something. Time table and train order must have been complicated as all get out in that area.

I look at things as complicated as that and find it amazing that anyone can get through there with out tying up everyone else.

"Clearly I'm not as keen as

JMRI...

I think if you are just wanting the "mainline" feel with signaling, JMRI is definitely the way to go. Our layout is about 70x30, with a 360' main track, 13 CTC control Points, 1 double-crossing over-single main Diamond fully protected, and building the logic with JMRI has been for the most part pretty easy.

In fact, modeling the Time Locking or Approach Locking, would be an easy task for JMRI as well, as long as that was the plan when you laid the track and wired it for the needed detection.

Steven

Almost all, but not quite, of

Almost all, but not quite, of my sectional track and turnouts are wired and isolated.  When I first designed the layout I realized that I would be operating my layout solo for most of the "sessions."  I wanted continuous running so a train could run the layout without stopping while I switch the tracks you see in the plan.  The big caveat at the time, this plan was drawn up in around 1999, was without building your own auto throw of a turnout, you couldn't have auto throw to allow continuous running.  I gambled and was convinced that with all the electronic developments back then auto throw was just a matter of time, and along came the Hare and Wabbit.  I will be installing the Wabbit this fall to throw the reversing loop on the first deck and the reversing loop on the second deck.

I purposely isolated each track and turnout when I first laid this track in 2003 in case I wanted to do something electronic, I knew not what, latter on down the road. I'm now hoping that will simplify a wee bit, the instillation of detectors and signals.